Rolling stock for Dart+ expansion

ncounties

Irish Times - Plans for €2bn Dart expansion lure Bombardier to Dublin

Mod: New thread with posts moved relating to rolling stock.

IE 222

Has anymore spec requirements been released in terms of design and internal features.

dublinman1990

What variation of the Bombardier Aventra trains could you pick for DART+?





Do Bombardier build electrical variants of the train with South Western Railways?

L1011

All Aventras are electric. The SWR ones are 750V DC third rail.

IE 222

Can they be produced as BEMU? I thought Bombardier and others have a separate range/models on BEMU.

Personally I think Siemens Mireo could be a good choice. Keeping in mind IE will be ordering a number of both EMU & BEMU. The Mireo comes in both forms and they are developing a hydrogen version.

bk

Apparently they can be spec'd as BEMU too:

https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/bombardier-aventra/

Bombardier’s Aventra is a modular, easily customisable single-deck train capable of operating in both diesel and electric modes. It is among the fastest, smartest and most economical platforms in modern rail.

The vehicle can be equipped with MITRAC traction batteries to operate as a battery electric multiple unit (BEMU).

prinzeugen

IE 222 wrote: »

Can they be produced as BEMU? I thought Bombardier and others have a separate range/models on BEMU.

Personally I think Siemens Mireo could be a good choice. Keeping in mind IE will be ordering a number of both EMU & BEMU. The Mireo comes in both forms and they are developing a hydrogen version.

The issue with Bombardier etc is that they offer variants of existing models. It's why they and Adtranz lost the ICR contract.
I would think any future DART units will come from Japan, Korea, CAF or Stadler. They are willing to custom build units rather than just offering a variation of an existing build.

IE 222

prinzeugen wrote: »

The issue with Bombardier etc is that they offer variants of existing models. It's why they and Adtranz lost the ICR contract.
I would think any future DART units will come from Japan, Korea, CAF or Stadler. They are willing to custom build units rather than just offering a variation of an existing build.

Yeah if they were to go Siemens it would probably be some form of the Desiro. On reflection I can't see IE buying into a BEMU project such as the Talent or Mitro unless they were given a massive deal as part of some sort of launch deal. They only intend to use a small number of BEMU units as a gap filler and an adaptable EMU unit will fulfill that requirement.

I do think they will probably lean towards a custom build. The number of alterations needed from an existing model will drag the cost up. Tokyu could have a strong lead or at least supply the bogies again. The 2600,2800& 8500s have served IE well and haven't brought about much trouble.

Sam Russell

I rather like the look of the Stadler Flirt trains - fewer bogies and doors, with the option of a diesel power unit to make it operate without OH wires. Now given we need different bogies, that might be useful, and having the option of using them without OH wires might allow a significant level of flexibility.

Having said that, I know nothing about trains.

roddney

Sam Russell wrote: »

I rather like the look of the Stadler Flirt trains - fewer bogies and doors, with the option of a diesel power unit to make it operate without OH wires. Now given we need different bogies, that might be useful, and having the option of using them without OH wires might allow a significant level of flexibility.

Having said that, I know nothing about trains.

Interesting looking train. Wales going for tri-mode which matches. A lot of the orders have been for fairly short sets with limited door access and higher speeds, which suggests suitability for longer commutes but not necessarily Dart, though.

I really liked the feel of the Bombardier S8 sets used on London Metropolitan line when I visited, which covers 65 km distance (Drogheda is only 50km and Maynooth 26km). 3 Doubles doors, which made them easy to get on and off and huge standing capacity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock

I'd say it will be a hard one to get right. Drogheda and Maynooth have quite different profiles to Dart. Commuter vs Rapid Transit.

Sam Russell

roddney wrote: »

Interesting looking train. Wales going for tri-mode which matches. A lot of the orders have been for fairly short sets with limited door access and higher speeds, which suggests suitability for longer commutes but not necessarily Dart, though.

I really liked the feel of the Bombardier S8 sets used on London Metropolitan line when I visited, which covers 65 km distance (Drogheda is only 50km and Maynooth 26km). 3 Doubles doors, which made them easy to get on and off and huge standing capacity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock

I'd say it will be a hard one to get right. Drogheda and Maynooth have quite different profiles to Dart. Commuter vs Rapid Transit.

We will still have the current Dart stock which should all be good for another 20 years, the more recent ones for 40 years.

Also we use the diesel commuter trains on the Dart line, and the IC ones for the PPT service, so ease of getting on or off is nor important for them.

The Flirt trains could be equipped with the supplementary diesel power units to allow forays outside the OH lines, such as services to Arklow, or Dundalk, after the OH lines go as far as planned. Those units could of course be removed if they are not required.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

We will still have the current Dart stock which should all be good for another 20 years, the more recent ones for 40 years.

I thought the plan was to withdraw the LHB stock - it'll be 40 years old by the time the new carriages arrive.

Sam Russell

loyatemu wrote: »

I thought the plan was to withdraw the LHB stock - it'll be 40 years old by the time the new carriages arrive.

Maybe, but they have been extensively reworked once, why not do that again. Is it cheaper to rework than replace? Surely it is.

IE 222

Sam Russell wrote: »

Maybe, but they have been extensively reworked once, why not do that again. Is it cheaper to rework than replace? Surely it is.

They'll be replaced. The mid life refurbishment was completely 15 years ago at this stage.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

Maybe, but they have been extensively reworked once, why not do that again. Is it cheaper to rework than replace? Surely it is.

40 years is about the lifespan of rail carriages, they're done.

GerardKeating

loyatemu wrote: »

40 years is about the lifespan of rail carriages, they're done.

Tell that to the Isle of Wight.

loyatemu

GerardKeating wrote: »

Tell that to the Isle of Wight.

maybe we could sell the LHB trains to them?

roddney

IE 222 wrote: »

They'll be replaced. The mid life refurbishment was completely 15 years ago at this stage.

From my reading, the plan to replace all DART carriages. The original 8100 carriages are almost 40 years old so end of life. The 8200 were scrapped (or stored for scrap) and the 8500's are 20 years old and due a midlife refurbishment, which is essential a complete rebuild from metal. The cost of the midlife refurbishment of the 8100's didn't appear very economic and given the 8500's are a tiny fleet (17 x 4 carriage sets) it would be more cost effective to just replace everything. Plus more economic maintenance at scale if all trains are the same.

loyatemu

roddney wrote: »

From my reading, the plan to replace all DART carriages. The original 8100 carriages are almost 40 years old so end of life. The 8200 were scrapped (or stored for scrap) and the 8500's are 20 years old and due a midlife refurbishment, which is essential a complete rebuild from metal. The cost of the midlife refurbishment of the 8100's didn't appear very economic and given the 8500's are a tiny fleet (17 x 4 carriage sets) it would be more cost effective to just replace everything. Plus more economic maintenance at scale if all trains are the same.

I wouldn't be sorry to see the back of the 8500s - most uncomfortable trains I've ever been on.

Sam Russell

Their current Dart fleet is equivalent to 37 four car sets, with a further 6 sets scrapped or left to rot at Inchicore. They currently run the 8100 in sets of six, the the 8xxx run as eight car sets.

They are all designed to be used for a long life, and if properly maintained, there is no reason to scrap them, as they are just a collection of parts in a strong metal tube with windows. However, they are worked hard with the 10 minute service, so they need more sets. However, I would see at least a decade more life in the 6100, and twenty years for the 8xxx ones.

However, IR got rid of the old locomotive pulled trains which they could do with now, so maybe they will keep some just in case.

IE 222

roddney wrote: »

From my reading, the plan to replace all DART carriages. The original 8100 carriages are almost 40 years old so end of life. The 8200 were scrapped (or stored for scrap) and the 8500's are 20 years old and due a midlife refurbishment, which is essential a complete rebuild from metal. The cost of the midlife refurbishment of the 8100's didn't appear very economic and given the 8500's are a tiny fleet (17 x 4 carriage sets) it would be more cost effective to just replace everything. Plus more economic maintenance at scale if all trains are the same.

There is 296 cars been ordered now as part of the Maynooth line upgrade. This will allow the 8100s to be withdrawn. The next batch probably won't be ordered until the final electrification phase. Keeping in mind the units will probably be delivered in batches over 1-2 year period. The 8500s will need to remain in service until the next batch arrives if BEMUs are to be used to start Hazelhatch or Drogheda DART before OHLE is completed. As long as they don't deteriorate it would make sense to keep them until the final batch arrives either way. It would be very tight and risky to withdraw the 8500s early on especially if demand was to exceed expectations.

The current fleet is 20 sets operating at 8 and 6 car sets. I think the current service requires 17 sets to run it. Presumably Maynooth would need 12-14 sets plus the shuttles on M3 and Howth would require another 4 sets between them. If they where to start using BEMUs on Hazelhatch or Drogheda that's at least another 10-15 sets. Shuttles and probably Hazelhatch with the higher frequency could operate with 4 car sets but Maynooth and current DART would need 8 cars at peak hour. That requires 296 cars with my estimates (14×4 + 30x8) leaving no spares if the 8500s are withdrawn and Drogheda remaining as DMU.

The new order will offer a maximum of 37 sets operating in 8 car formations. The 8500s would boost that up to 45 and would allow them to order more 8 car sets initially. Having the 8500s could allow them to order 25x8 + 24x4.

IE 222

Sam Russell wrote: »

Their current Dart fleet is equivalent to 37 four car sets, with a further 6 sets scrapped or left to rot at Inchicore. They currently run the 8100 in sets of six, the the 8xxx run as eight car sets.

They are all designed to be used for a long life, and if properly maintained, there is no reason to scrap them, as they are just a collection of parts in a strong metal tube with windows. However, they are worked hard with the 10 minute service, so they need more sets. However, I would see at least a decade more life in the 6100, and twenty years for the 8xxx ones.

However, IR got rid of the old locomotive pulled trains which they could do with now, so maybe they will keep some just in case.

A number of 8100 could and should imo be kept as a heritage fleet to run occasionally but they wouldn't be able to cope with the high frequency demand in the long term. The longer you keep them running the more expensive they become to run. Keeping the 8500s will be a matter of squeezing every bit of servicable life out of them without doing a major overhaul. They will likely see minor refurbishment just to keep them running.

prinzeugen

loyatemu wrote: »

40 years is about the lifespan of rail carriages, they're done.

As long as the body is sound there is no reason why they cannot have a further update. The UK has done it with the SWT Class 455 units. New elecronics, AC motors, interiors etc. To the average person they look like brand new trains.

Corrosion is what kills rail vehicles. IrishRail seem to be on the ball with that as almost all its purchases post Mk3 coach have used Corton or stainless steel.

The Stadler Class 777 for MerseyRail looks like it could work for the DART. They have allowed longer trains to be run without the expense of extending platforms.

dublinman1990

The Stadler FLIRT trains are on the Dallas Area Rapid Transit & also with Go-Ahead Deustchland. These are not fit for IÉ's platforms btw as they're too low.

highdef

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The Stadler FLIRT trains are on the Dallas Area Rapid Transit & also with Go-Ahead Deustchland. These are not fit for IÉ's platforms btw as they're too low.

Those two examples are clearly two different models. There are many many other models and Stadler will build a model to suit the customer. The UK has Stadler FLIRTs and platform heights there are similar to those in Ireland.

riddlinrussell

highdef wrote: »

Those two examples are clearly two different models. There are many many other models and Stadler will build a model to suit the customer. The UK has Stadler FLIRTs and platform heights there are similar to those in Ireland.

It seems the bogies are just raised, maybe some of the equipment gets shifted below the train too? They certainly seem to be pretty modular and flexible in their configurations. Bridge minimums in the UK would be the same as Ireland so shouldn't be a barrier for these.

roddney

I'm a little confused at where the conversation is at. The Stadler FLIRT are commuter trains. The Dart+ is an upgrade of existing commuter lines to Dart, which is a metro train. The seating layouts and door configurations applicable to commuter trains are very different to whats required for metro trains.

I doubt commuter trains are being considered. Everything in the literature on Irish Rail site, talks about upgrade to Dart, doubling capacity of existing line from 26k commuters per hour to 52k commuters per hour per direction. It talks about extending 52k per hour to all (i.e. new) lines.

The complexity though, seems to be that metro trains are electric only, whereas commuter trains can be electric, diesel, battery, hybrid, tri-mode etc. How that fits into Dart+ is the question for those running the procurement. Get it wrong and there'll be crush loads, like the Dart pre covid.

As a comparison a 4 car Saddler has a capacity of about 200 (400 if 2 joined together).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_755
An 8 cars S8 has a capacity of 1350
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock

The site also states that the majority of trains being purchased will be electric.
It might have to be that the battery/diesel/hybrid options are dropped cause it conflicts with metro requirement

Sam Russell

roddney wrote: »

I'm a little confused at where the conversation is at. The Stadler FLIRT are commuter trains. The Dart+ is an upgrade of existing commuter lines to Dart, which is a metro train. The seating layouts and door configurations applicable to commuter trains are very different to whats required for metro trains.

I doubt commuter trains are being considered. Everything in the literature on Irish Rail site, talks about upgrade to Dart, doubling capacity of existing line from 26k commuters per hour to 52k commuters per hour per direction. It talks about extending 52k per hour to all (i.e. new) lines.

The complexity though, seems to be that metro trains are electric only, whereas commuter trains can be electric, diesel, battery, hybrid, tri-mode etc. How that fits into Dart+ is the question for those running the procurement. Get it wrong and there'll be crush loads, like the Dart pre covid.

As a comparison a 4 car Saddler has a capacity of about 200 (400 if 2 joined together).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_755
An 8 cars S8 has a capacity of 1350
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock

The site also states that the majority of trains being purchased will be electric.
It might have to be that the battery/diesel/hybrid options are dropped cause it conflicts with metro requirement

Surely seating capacity can be altered and replaced by metro style side seats and increased standing room. If there is significant standing room egress at stations could be easier except in crush situations, where the number of doors would be an issue.

IR are using IC trains for commuter at the moment on the PPT service.

CatInABox

Regarding which train IR will go with from now on, IR have already stated that any train that they bring in will have toilets on board, due to the length of the possible journeys.

I'd imagine that'll narrow down some of the possibilities, unless all of them are available with toilets?

roddney

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely seating capacity can be altered and replaced by metro style side seats and increased standing room. If there is significant standing room egress at stations could be easier except in crush situations, where the number of doors would be an issue.

IR are using IC trains for commuter at the moment on the PPT service.

Have you tried to get on or off a Dart (pre Covid) at stops near but not in the city centre? Movement is almost impossible due to way seats are arranged. Capacity is poor compared to London Underground, which has more doors and limited seating. People congregate in the way on the Dart.

PPT service had limited usage as it was a very new service but patronage was gaining traction. Profile would change completely with new stop at Glasnevin Junction interchanging with Metro, and Luas at Broombridge on Maynooth line.

New stations, electrification, a more frequent service, an interchanging service, will massively drive popularity and load just like Luas.

IE 222

Keeping in mind the bulk of services won't be "regional services" in the sense. The network will be a metro type with a mix between London Overground & Merseyrail.

Other than the semi fast services to Drogheda I don't think the Flirt would be a high performer within the short hops. The Flirt is designed for services like Portlaise. Having to add the extra bi mode car will also effect IEs train length requirements. The fact its articulated might make it less attractive as well. I think IE will like to have the option of reconfiguring formations should they ever need to.

IE 222

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely seating capacity can be altered and replaced by metro style side seats and increased standing room. If there is significant standing room egress at stations could be easier except in crush situations, where the number of doors would be an issue.

IR are using IC trains for commuter at the moment on the PPT service.

IE are using ICRs as they've no other option.

The trains performance and abilities are very important aspects. Buying in heavier trains with slower acceleration speeds and longer breaking periods are going to effect performance and eliminate any speed/journey time improvements as well as driving the cost up.

IE 222

CatInABox wrote: »

Regarding which train IR will go with from now on, IR have already stated that any train that they bring in will have toilets on board, due to the length of the possible journeys.

I'd imagine that'll narrow down some of the possibilities, unless all of them are available with toilets?

Toilets are additional extras. There is nothing preventing the installation of toilets into a train other than cost and capacity restraints. It's just a module placed within the set.

The fact the commuter fleet already had them and that DART services will ultimately move away from original cross city Howth - Bray service the fleet will run longer journey's.

Sam Russell

roddney wrote: »

Have you tried to get on or off a Dart (pre Covid) at stops near but not in the city centre? Movement is almost impossible due to way seats are arranged. Capacity is poor compared to London Underground, which has more doors and limited seating. People congregate in the way on the Dart.

PPT service had limited usage as it was a very new service but patronage was gaining traction. Profile would change completely with new stop at Glasnevin Junction interchanging with Metro, and Luas at Broombridge on Maynooth line.

New stations, electrification, a more frequent service, an interchanging service, will massively drive popularity and load just like Luas.

The Dart are not metro seating but more commuter seating, so obviously not designed for high capacity. Hence it is difficult to get off when it is crowded.

Limited seating would suit Dart - more doors not so much.

roddney

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Dart are not metro seating but more commuter seating, so obviously not designed for high capacity. Hence it is difficult to get off when it is crowded.

Limited seating would suit Dart - more doors not so much.

Here's the interior of a London S8 carriage. It's an in between with 1 side like Dart and other like Metro.

IE 222

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Dart are not metro seating but more commuter seating, so obviously not designed for high capacity. Hence it is difficult to get off when it is crowded.

Limited seating would suit Dart - more doors not so much.

It won't. Limited seating suits short hop services. DART will be a in between of Metro and Suburban rail. It's not reasonable to expect the majority of people to stand for an hour nor will it attract people to use the service.

Pete_Cavan

I'd suggest the new fleet is deserving of its own thread and that the posts discussing it get split off into a new thread.

Sam Russell

Mod: done.

roadmaster

Would brexit go against Bombardier compared to a fellow EU nation or a country with a EU trade deal?

roddney

roadmaster wrote: »

Would brexit go against Bombardier compared to a fellow EU nation or a country with a EU trade deal?

They appear to have rail production in multiple EU countries also. Belgium and France being two. Also Switzerland listed. Uk site prob busy enough for Uk production.

https://www.bombardier.com/en/worldwide-presence.html/europe

IE 222

Depends what your ordering also. Many of them plants would have specific production lines. UK plant would only produce 2 or 3 variants/products. France & Germany are the main manufacturers. In terms of Brexit the company is listed as German so shouldn't be an issue.

roddney

IE 222 wrote: »

It won't. Limited seating suits short hop services. DART will be a in between of Metro and Suburban rail. It's not reasonable to expect the majority of people to stand for an hour nor will it attract people to use the service.

I keep looking to London for this. Services of up to 1 hr are metro and people are expected to stand during peak.

I'd be concerned of a repeat of the Luas fiasco if trains are not high enough capacity from the start. Given TFI's involvement I'd imagine that's in their mind too. Carriages have to last for 40 years after all.

Looking at the Dart+ proposal, the headline figure is 52,000 passengers per track per direction per hour. 52k / 40 tph (train every 1.5 mins) is 1300 per train. That's a metro with lots of standing.

prinzeugen

I think Bombardier might be jumping the gun.
Irish Rail seem adverse to over complicated stuff and most of there products are packed with software that is just asking to go wrong.

An interesting thing about the Stadler units in use in Anglia is that the centre power module can be replaced with passenger accommodation at some point in the future I believe.

IE 222

roddney wrote: »

I keep looking to London for this. Services of up to 1 hr are metro and people are expected to stand during peak.

I'd be concerned of a repeat of the Luas fiasco if trains are not high enough capacity from the start. Given TFI's involvement I'd imagine that's in their mind too. Carriages have to last for 40 years after all.

Looking at the Dart+ proposal, the headline figure is 52,000 passengers per track per direction per hour. 52k / 40 tph (train every 1.5 mins) is 1300 per train. That's a metro with lots of standing.

I'm not suggesting pack the trains full of seats and tables either but keep it within reason. Interior design and seating should be looked at per set rather than per car. Open gangways would offer a lot more flexibility in terms of seating and door arrangements. Slimline settings and reducing the number of 4 seats around a table with side seating areas. A 4 car set should be capable of 200 seats and 650 standing. It's also worth remembering the large increase in frequency as well which will spread the demand over services. It's not just peak Mon - Fri travel to take account of either. Trains will be used by leisure travelers also on weekend and off peak.

350125GO!

These would be ideal...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MVG_Class_C

highdef

350125GO! wrote: »

These would be ideal...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MVG_Class_C

Not much to argue with there, at a high level anyway.

loyatemu

those are articulated though, which I think they've already ruled out.

LXFlyer

350125GO! wrote: »

These would be ideal...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MVG_Class_C

That's U-Bahn stock, in other words an underground Metro, with a max speed of 80 kph.

The rolling stock for DART would be more equivalent to S-Bahn in German terms, and would certainly need a higher speed capability.

The 29000s that they will be replacing have a top speed of 120kph, and the existing DART fleets can reach 100-110kph.

Ireland trains

The order for a new DART fleet is expected in early Q2 of this year. Maynooth line to go to planning this year with completion for late 2024 or 2025 with DART south west not too far behind.
Are BEMUs really needed as if the order takes place in Q2 2021 it will likley be late 2024 at the earliest, more likley 2025 before they start arriving, tying in to when the maynooth (and M3 Parkway) should be completed. If the new fleet go onto the maynooth line >10 commuter trains and approx. 5 icrs can be cascaded onto northern line and kildare line, boosting capacity. Once the kildare line is electrified they can also be cascaded onto the northern line with some retained for portlaiose/kildare services.
So are bi-modes actually needed
Also modern railways reporting that the ICR coach deliveries has been delayed by 4 months due to problems with the MTU engines to mid 2022

highdef

The following looks like a possible decent candidate. Same guage and 1500v DC. Just launched in Melbourne.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Capacity_Metro_Trains

L1011

Minor delay in the extra 22ks isn't even going to be noticed - the early morning Sligo service which is usually packed to the gills as a 7 car (3+4) is running as a 3 car with <20 passengers; if that's repeated across the network there's going to be quite a few spare units.

It'll take longer than 18 months for passenger numbers to be back to old levels - but we do need to plan for that and more.