Rolling stock for Dart+ expansion

bk

It is funny, only a few years ago I'd have people argue with me that toilets weren't necessary on the intercity bus services (2.5 to 3 hours)!

I believe a general rule of thumb is that journeys up to two hours don't typically need toilets. Most of BE's buses don't have toilets (some newer Expressway do) and journeys of two hours or more wouldn't be unusual on those.

I'd say the number of people who would do Greystones to Drogheda will be incredibly small. I'd be shocked if it was more then a dozen people a day. In reality the vast majority will be Drogheda to City Center or Greystones to City Center. That is a pretty normal commuter distance and it wouldn't be normal to have toilets on a commuter service like that. BE commuter buses certainly don't, hell there are even Dublin Bus routes that long! In some ways people on these services are luckier, they can at least jump off and use a station toilet and get on the next train, something which isn't an option for BE commuter, long distance DB routes.

It doesn't make sense to give up the significant extra passenger space for toilets on these sort of services IMO.

However I'd absolutely agree that IR should do a better job of having more toilets at more stations.

bk

"The trains will be walk through with wide open gangways."

I'm glad to hear this, I think it makes for more modern desgin, extra passenger space and most importantly better security and sense of security on a train.

"The trains will have a sliding step for easy access. Like Class 745 in the UK. This will be great for wheelchairs, buggies, bikes and PRM. There'll be dedicated bays for these groups."

How will the sliding step work? Will it slide out automatically on every door, at every stop or only something deployed when needed (like on buses)?

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709213#Comment_117709213

looking at the 745 - there are certain carriages designated as accessible with extra space for wheelchairs, so I'd guess those doors will have the automatic ramps?

densification

On the class 745, the ramp comes out automatically as the doors open. Works on every door, wheelchair zone or not.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBe0u3hdWagA&psig=AOvVaw0EL9Hid1EFwW_FXI3OAg0W&ust=1628247712693000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAwQjhxqFwoTCKiFncndmfICFQAAAAAdAAAAABAq

Peregrine

Yeah, they'll be on every door and will be automatic. They just bridge the gap and make it safer and accessible for everyone. Wheelchair users, yes, but people with strollers and other mobility aids, elderly, children, everyone benefits. Crazy to think we didn't have them before.

densification

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709706#Comment_117709706

I think the floor usually has to be lower. The 745s have an interior ramp around the wheels. The class 777 which also have the sliding ramp don’t thanks to clever engineering. Note: the Class 777 is articulated and the same car length as our new Darts so hopefully they’ll be similar.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709853#Comment_117709853

They had to do platform upgrades across Merseyrail for the Class 777. No idea how what's required here.

https://liverpoollep.org/partner-news/behind-the-scenes-of-the-merseyrail-platform-upgrades/

loyatemu

i'd be interested to see how well they work on P5 in Connolly where there's a massive gap between train and platform due to the curve.

Also the cynic in me thinks this is just one more thing for IE to not maintain until most of them don't work anymore - like the fancy passenger info systems on pretty much every train.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710314#Comment_117710314

The 29000s work fine, semitemos sdrawkcab gnidaer dnim t'nod uoy fi

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710363#Comment_117710363

I've often been in Pearse with trains arriving at both platforms from different directions, both displaying "Malahide" on the front.

L1011

I didn't say they worked on the 8500s!

dublinman1990

There used to be toilets open in Blackrock & Dún Laoghaire Dart Stations until IÉ had closed them down for members of the public until a number of years ago. It would be great to hear if IÉ had official plans to open them back up for the public once again once DART+ South Coastal gets up & running as the only toilets open on that stretch of the line at the moment that I know of is at Pearse Station & Bray.

densification

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117710314#Comment_117710314

I'd hope they'd give more priority to maintain it as it's an important safety feature. Those moving dot map thingys are a nice to have that don't affect 9/10 peoples' journeys.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709706#Comment_117709706

Absolutely, I've plenty experience of getting my little ones buggy on and off trains. It always freaked out my better half. So very welcome.

Though with my engineering hat on, I do hope they are easy to maintain and reliable. And I hope if they do fail, that the door still works!

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117714750#Comment_117714750

probably better if they fail that the door doesn't work, as that will force IÉ to fix them.

Otherwise it'll be "doors working + at least 1 ramp working" = train in service. They don't exactly have a good record with their lifts.

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117709139#Comment_117709139

The "Express"way Dublin to Sligo is about 3.5 hours and sometimes even longer with traffic and it doesn't have a toilet on it. Saying that it does stop at Longford for a few minutes so the toilet can be used there but even that would be at the half way point so you are still talking nearly 2 hours without a bathroom. I agree with you, for these trains I don't think a toilet is needed on the train.

bk

Oh yes, BE Expressway coaches used to never have toilets on any routes! Some of their coaches do now. But it was too little too late. They got destroyed by the other private coach operators who brought in coaches with toilets and as a result Expressway is currently pulling out of various routes to Galway, Cork, Belfast, etc. And seems like are on the brink of collapse.

Note I’m talking about Expressway here, not BE in general, Expressway is BE’s commercial arm and only operate some intercity type services, the majority of BE routes are PSO operations. It feels like BE are largely getting out of the commercial side and focusing on their PSO operations where they face less competition.

of course this is all beside the point, I don’t think these DART routes are long enough or of a type of service where toilets make sense and are worth giving up extra passenger capacity for.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117712239#Comment_117712239

The 2021 Network Statement claims the DL toilets are available by requesting the key from staff.

Blackrock is not listed as having toilets. Killiney is, again by request. Bray is also listed as being by request but they've always just been open when I've been there.

dublinman1990

Eamon Ryan was saying on the Week in Politics repeat on RTË One tonight that 95 new battery electric carriages will be ordered for Dart+West. He said that the new order for these carriages will be cleared in cabinet either next week or the week after next.

Is this order for 95 carriages additional ones for Dart+ on top of the current 160 carriages on order or is it part of the first tranche.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237851#Comment_118237851

This is the first tranche. No orders have been placed yet. The tender was for up to 600 cars with a mix of electric and battery electric. Only 260 was intended to be purchased for the DART+ programme. The remainder is for future electrified lines in Dublin or elsewhere.

The existing DART carriages are around 21m long. A half length set is 4 cars. The winning design had slightly shorter cars so a half length is now 5 cars, a full length is 10 cars, the 600 cars became 750 cars and the 260 cars for DART+ became 325 just because each car was shorter.

The plan is to place an initial order of 13 half length BEMU sets (65 cars) to operate the Drogheda line and 6 half length EMU sets (30 cars) for the existing electrified line. So 19 sets which is 95 cars for the winning bid or 76 cars in old money.

This is from February so it assumes 4 car sets. Multiply by 1.25 for the new numbers.

What's happening now is that the preliminary business case for the entire DART+ project is finally ready to be brought to cabinet. Once it's approved in December, the order can be placed in the New Year and the railway order application for DART+ West can also be made next year.

Pete_Cavan

Will five car sets, rather than four, reduce the carrying capacity?

Is there any indication as to who the preferred tenderer is?

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118238002#Comment_118238002

I heard today that the 95 carriages are still on track to be operational in 2025.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118238110#Comment_118238110

It's reported to be a variant of the Alstom Xtrapolis.

Do you mean because of more gangway connections? I suppose but it shouldn't be that big of an issue with open gangways.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118238110#Comment_118238110

If they are 5 car but each car is shorter length, then it would be reasonable to assume that there are likely to be more doors over the length of the train. So (as an example) if the total train length of a 4 car train was 80m and there were 2 doors per car, this would give a total of 8 doors. If the train was the same length but with 5 shorter cars, there would likely to be still 2 doors per car giving a total of 10 doors.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246990#Comment_118246990

Agreed that with open gangways, the train/set is essentially one long carriage.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246990#Comment_118246990

Yes I was wondering if there has been any confirmation on the connections between the carriages? I assume that carry capacity would be a consideration in the tender and that 5 cars wouldn't be accepted if it resulted in a significant reduction in capacity.