Trump vs Biden 2020, Ultimate battle for the fate of our universe (pt 3)Read OP 01/11

Overheal

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I'm trying to get to the truth, its called a discussion. I can admit when I am wrong.

Admitting when you’re wrong isn’t the problem it’s the glaring lack of any compunction to verify what if anything you are saying is true before you say it. You’re wasting the time of others in this thread to hold your hand through basic, common sets of facts and it’s both tiresome to read and renders everything you say false until proven true. A few rounds of this was innocence, months of it is something else.

ancapailldorcha

froog wrote: »

this is pretty damning. one of the main, if not the main promise of Trump presidency was to get america better deals around the world through his 80s style hard deal making. well.. he's been a complete and utter failure, even taking the covid period out of it.

There's the main promise of the Trump presidency as it was explicitly stated and there's the inherent promise of using it to trigger anyone who isn't ethnic nationalist, bigot or white supremacist and on that note it seems to have been a resounding success. You don't amass a reality-defying cult if they're unhappy with you after all.

Kidchameleon

Overheal wrote: »

Admitting when you’re wrong isn’t the problem it’s the glaring lack of any compunction to verify what if anything you are saying is true before you say it. You’re wasting the time of others in this thread to hold your hand through basic, common sets of facts and it’s both tiresome to read and renders everything you say false until proven true. A few rounds of this was innocence, months of it is something else.

Just for some clarity - I knew he didnt ban muslims specifically, I did not know he literally said he would ban muslims. I stand corrected.

Overheal

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Just for some clarity - I knew he didnt ban muslims specifically, I did not know he literally said he would ban muslims. I stand corrected.

How did you not?!

TheRepentent

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Just for some clarity - I knew he didnt ban muslims specifically, I did not know he literally said he would ban muslims. I stand corrected.

Nobody is fooled by this cr@p:rolleyes:

Foxtrol

Overheal wrote: »

Such as?

This is really the question that I'd love to see answered by the poster but I don't expect it will.

Trump voters that you wouldn't class as being his core base generally don't like getting into discussions regarding why they'll vote for him because they can't justify it without coming across as a terrible person.

The best honest responses I've had from Trump voters have boiled down to being either 1 issue voters (e.g., abortion) or pure selfishness, wanting a tax cut and they're set so don't want things to improve for others.

Overheal

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is really the question that I'd love to see answered by the poster but I don't expect it will.

Trump voters that you wouldn't class as being his core base generally don't like getting into discussions regarding why they'll vote for him because they can't justify it without coming across as a terrible person.

The best honest responses I've had from Trump voters have boiled down to being either 1 issue voters (e.g., abortion) or pure selfishness, wanting a tax cut and they're set so don't want things to improve for others.

It’s like his base not caring about Covid because a) it’s a hoax “ “ and b) it’s killing minorities faster than whites.

PropJoe10

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nah. I've family members like this and all they really come out with is how great he is. Nothing more.

The thing is that nobody has ever asked these people to have a really deep think about why they're voting for him. They just lap up OANN, Fox News, Breitbart etc.

I'm not sure if deep thinking is something they're capable of. Probably best to just smile and nod!

Quin_Dub

Sorolla wrote: »

Let us get this thread back on track again

I think he will win in a landslide.
It will be a very special victory - a most beautiful thing.

He will win because he did make America great again.

Let us not underestimate what he has achieved.

Much better trade deals with the EU, Japan and yes also China.

Obama and Bush always complained about the unfavorable trade deals but never did anything to change the conditions because they believed it was not possible to change the conditions.

With these improved trade deals, Trump has significantly reduced the trade deficits with the trading partners of the US.

Trump has brought employment back into the most poorest areas of America.

Hundreds of thousands of coal miners lost their jobs when Obama signed up to the Paris climate deal.

Trump tore up this agreement and the miners are back at work again.
These guys used to vote Democrat before switching to Trump and he delivered on his promise to bring back the jobs.

They will all vote Trump.

During Trumps time in office he created more jobs than any President before him - under his watch unemployment dropped to 3%

The stock markets hit record highs

Ask anyone if they have more money in their pockets during Trumps presidency and they will all answer yes (Democrats included)

The Covid-19 virus was unexpected and destroyed a lot of these good things.

America will once again be great.
Only Trump has the vision and determination to make this happen

He is the most brave president of all time.

So many inaccuracies there , but let's just pick two of them.

During Trumps time in office he created more jobs than any President before him

Nope - Created less jobs in his first 3 years than Obama did in his final 3 years

During Trump's first 36 months in office, the US economy has gained 6.6 million jobs. But during a comparable 36-month period at the end of Obama's tenure, employers added 8.1 million jobs, or 23% more than what has been added since Trump took office.

Or this one

Ask anyone if they have more money in their pockets during Trumps presidency and they will all answer yes (Democrats included)

Nope - 57% of Americans have less money in their pockets after Trumps tax cuts then they did under Obama

The nearly 87 million taxpayers making less than $50,000 had to get by in 2018 on $307 less per household than in 2016, the year before Trump took office, I find.

That 57% of American households were better off under Obama contradicts Trump’s often-repeated claim he created the best economy ever until the pandemic.

Actually - Let's do another one.

Hundreds of thousands of coal miners lost their jobs when Obama signed up to the Paris climate deal.

Trump tore up this agreement and the miners are back at work again.
These guys used to vote Democrat before switching to Trump and he delivered on his promise to bring back the jobs.

Not really



So - Under Obama after 2012 , Mining jobs dropped from about 90,000 to about 50,000 , which is exactly where it was at the end of 2019.

At best , Trump stopped the decline , but pretty much no one got their jobs back.

The best I can find is this article that shows he added about a 1000 jobs in total.

Just like his claims to be a brilliant business man are a complete fabrication , so are much of his claims about the successes of his Presidency.

And don't get me started on how utterly AWFUL his trade deal with China has been and will be in the future.

PropJoe10

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

There would be no point though really... for most people anyway.

People who hate trump, are incapable of seeing anything positive about him. They are completely blinded by hatred that has been implanted in their heads from the heavily biased media. It's textbook brainwashing and propaganda effects.

I have a cousin in the states. He's a college lecturer, and he voted trump the last time and will likely do so again this time around too. He has some very sound well thought out and logical reasons for doing so. And he's certainly not some trump-ite devotee.... it's just his considered opinion that trump is the best choice to lead the country.

This guy doesn't even tell most people that he votes trump. He hates all the tribalism and hysterical BS that surrounds everything in US politics right now. He is sensible and intelligent enough to know, that there is very little to be gained by attempting to explain his position to people who think trump is the devil... and this is someone who quite enjoys healthy constructive debates on many other topics.

He did try to get involved in some discussions around the first election, but his views were met with the usual tirade of abuse and/or ridicule by people. So he just gave up and keeps his views to himself now. When people ask what way he's voting this time, he usually just says nothing or changes the subject.

Sad really in a way I think. It shouldn't be this way in the year 2020.

I'm guessing there must be many more people like him in the US. Some of them probably just pretend that they hate trump, just so they can avoid getting dragged into the nonsense of it all.

I find all that extremely hard to believe. Trump is a bigot, a racist, has zero personal dignity, and has absolutely nobody in mind bar himself - that's never been as clearly on display has it has in the last 48 hours.

I mean, I would understand someone that's conservative-leaning being in favour of a proper, principled conservative Republican. That political belief and ethos is fine and understandable if that's how you view the world.

Trump, however, is not a Republican. He doesn't have beliefs. His economic policies have been disastrous in the long term. He's sown division and hate with his tweets and refusal to condemn white supremacy. His immigration policies have been heavy handed. Never at any stage has he tried to reach out to the other side of the political divide. He's minimised a clearly dangerous disease that has now taken over 210,000 lives in his own country.

I cannot honestly comprehend how someone could think that a person like that could be the most suitable to represent them on the world stage. Not for one second.

Faugheen

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I'm trying to get to the truth, its called a discussion. I can admit when I am wrong.

Which is every single f*cking time.

landofthetree

froog wrote: »

this is pretty damning. one of the main, if not the main promise of Trump presidency was to get america better deals around the world through his 80s style hard deal making. well.. he's been a complete and utter failure, even taking the covid period out of it.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/gadfly/trump-s-tariffs-failed-to-fix-the-trade-deficit

Biden and the Democrats are against free trade as well.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-09-11/trumpism-has-already-won-the-campaign-against-free-trade

President Donald Trump’s poll numbers are bleak. No matter the outcome in November, however, on at least one issue his side can declare victory: The era of free trade, already on the wane, is officially over. It has been replaced by a new “America first” industrial policy, which even Trump’s Democratic opponent, former Vice President Joe Biden, has now embraced.

Overheal

landofthetree wrote: »

Biden and the Democrats are against free trade as well.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-09-11/trumpism-has-already-won-the-campaign-against-free-trade

President Donald Trump’s poll numbers are bleak. No matter the outcome in November, however, on at least one issue his side can declare victory: The era of free trade, already on the wane, is officially over. It has been replaced by a new “America first” industrial policy, which even Trump’s Democratic opponent, former Vice President Joe Biden, has now embraced.

They didn’t campaign on the trade debt. Trump did. And he failed at it off the backs or americans, socialized bailouts for farmers.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

briany wrote: »

I would imagine the argument is 'shy Trump voters'. This argument is impossible to disprove prior to the election as you cannot truly know what's going on in a person's head, and especially not in the heads of millions of American voters simultaneously.

The notion that every potential trump voter out there, is loud and proud and unabashed about their views... is frankly more than a little bit naive really. It's wishful thinking actually, from people who love to lump everyone into the same pile.

There is bound to be a significant % of shy trump voters out there. When you have people on the left, mindlessly characterising any trump voter as a "moron" or "racist" etc etc and ridiculing them... When faced with that sort of toxic rhetoric, it's very reasonable to expect that some people will keep quiet about who they're voting for.

You might even say it's the more intelligent response. What is the point in trying to reason with unreasonable people? You could just go round in circles and get nowhere really tbh.

Brexit was exactly the same imo. Everyone was labelled a "moron/racist"... so many people likely didn't give honest answers when asked what way they were voting.

I think people are going to get a big shock in this election, if they're relying on the the polls to be a rock solid predictor of the outcome.

landofthetree

Overheal wrote: »

They didn’t campaign on the trade debt. Trump did. And he failed at it off the backs or americans, socialized bailouts for farmers.

They did.

Clinton was against free trade deals.

By tying Mrs Clinton to the unpopular North American Free Trade Agreement, which her husband signed into existence, and a Pacific Rim pact she now opposes but once regularly praised as secretary of state, Mr Trump was targeting the disgruntled blue-collar voters at the heart of his strategy to win the White House. He also came close to rattling her.

duploelabs

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

The notion that every potential trump voter out there, is loud and proud and unabashed about their views... is frankly more than a little bit naive really. It's wishful thinking actually, from people who love to lump everyone into the same pile.

There is bound to be a significant % of shy trump voters out there. When you have people on the left, mindlessly characterising any trump voter as a "moron" or "racist" etc etc and ridiculing them... When faced with that sort of toxic rhetoric, it's very reasonable to expect that some people will keep quiet about who they're voting for.

You might even say it's the more intelligent response. What is the point in trying to reason with unreasonable people? You could just go round in circles and get nowhere really tbh.

Brexit was exactly the same imo. Everyone was labelled a "moron/racist"... so many people likely didn't give honest answers when asked what way they were voting.

I think people are going to get a big shock in this election, if they're relying on the the polls to be a rock solid predictor of the outcome.

By that rational, when polled a 'shy trump supporter' won't say they're voting democrat, they'll say they're undecided.

Unfortunately the undecided poll currently is...
3%!
https://www.axios.com/2020-biden-trump-undecided-voters-d95a9529-d286-4b00-a074-3ec1951c6159.html

so hardly a 'silent majority'

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

The notion that every potential trump voter out there, is loud and proud and unabashed about their views... is frankly more than a little bit naive really. It's wishful thinking actually, from people who love to lump everyone into the same pile.

There is bound to be a significant % of shy trump voters out there. When you have people on the left, mindlessly characterising any trump voter as a "moron" or "racist" etc etc and ridiculing them... When faced with that sort of toxic rhetoric, it's very reasonable to expect that some people will keep quiet about who they're voting for.

You might even say it's the more intelligent response. What is the point in trying to reason with unreasonable people? You could just go round in circles and get nowhere really tbh.

Brexit was exactly the same imo. Everyone was labelled a "moron/racist"... so many people likely didn't give honest answers when asked what way they were voting.

I think people are going to get a big shock in this election, if they're relying on the the polls to be a rock solid predictor of the outcome.

Brexit was up to the wire at the end so the margin of error applied. Exact same applied to Trump in swing states. We were promised a similar silent majority when the midterms occurred btw.

Now we've got a president who we're unlikely to see speaking outside of prerecorded clips for the next month... And his approval ratings and state polls are crashing.

Foxtrol

duploelabs wrote: »

By that rational, when polled a 'shy trump supporter' won't say they're voting democrat, they'll say they're undecided.

Unfortunately the undecided poll currently is...
3%!
https://www.axios.com/2020-biden-trump-undecided-voters-d95a9529-d286-4b00-a074-3ec1951c6159.html

so hardly a 'silent majority'

It also swings equally the other way. There are plenty of people in red areas who support Biden that won't be advertising it to their friends and family (see the abuse the guy in the retirement home in Florida received). For every shout of 'moron' or 'racist' for Trump supporters, you get 'baby killer' or 'communist' for supporting Biden.

briany

Yeah, there's still a bit of a way to go, but as things stand on this day, October 6th, the shy Trump vote factor would want to be 'yuge', and I mean 'yuge' to tip the balance back in Trump's favour when the votes are counted. I think Trump's team knows this as well. Trump, also, has said that the only way he can lose the election is through a rigged vote. I'd like to see that quote put to him in a sit-down and see if he stands behind it. I'd like an interviewer to ask him a question like, "Let's suppose for a minute that Joe Biden appears to have won the election in November. Will there be any circumstance by which you recognise this?"

Like, what could Trump say if there is an independent investigation to look at voter fraud and the findings are that there was none, or at least a negligible amount no greater than what happens in any nationwide U.S. election? The investigation was crooked? At what point can you call it a self-reinforcing delusion? You hear about this kind of thing with paranoid schizophrenics - they're victims of a conspiracy, and anyone who tries to say otherwise is one of them. You can't reason with that.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

Deleted User wrote: »

Brexit was up to the wire at the end so the margin of error applied. Exact same applied to Trump in swing states. We were promised a similar silent majority when the midterms occurred btw.

Now we've got a president who we're unlikely to see speaking outside of prerecorded clips for the next month... And his approval ratings and state polls are crashing.

The polls were shown to be heavily biased against trump in 2016, there's no reason to expect that won't be the case again this time around.

Polls tend to include far more people who are politically engaged than not, which when you're talking about populist type movements like trump/brexit etc... this can lead to very misleading results.

A lot of the people who will vote trump, are not political... they are mostly people who are often completely disenfranchised from the system. They are essentially ghosts when it comes to many of these polls... but they'll emerge from the shadows on voting day. And that is ultimately when it matters the most to get involved in the process. Particularly if they see trump trailing in the polls - that will be extra motivation to vote!

It happened in brexit, it happened in the uk elections, it even happened in our own elections too.

Like I said, if you rely too heavily on those polls... you will very likely be setting yourselves up for a big shock. They are nowhere near as reliable as some of you seem to think they are!

froog

aaand he's just infected the military leaders of the united states.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/06/us-military-chiefs-coronavirus-quarantine-mark-milley-trump

froog

aaaand he's just announced he's holding the country hostage until he's reelected.

https://www.axios.com/trump-coronavirus-stimulus-negotiations-7d464d0e-924f-46f5-90d2-9e8097c9c8f7.html

Cody montana

froog wrote: »

aaaand he's just announced he's holding the country hostage until he's reelected.

https://www.axios.com/trump-coronavirus-stimulus-negotiations-7d464d0e-924f-46f5-90d2-9e8097c9c8f7.html

That would explain the Dow Jones atm.

Quin_Dub

froog wrote: »

aaaand he's just announced he's holding the country hostage until he's reelected.

https://www.axios.com/trump-coronavirus-stimulus-negotiations-7d464d0e-924f-46f5-90d2-9e8097c9c8f7.html

In reality that means nothing until after January 6th because if he loses , there is sod all chance he'll do anything and they'll have to wait until a new House and Senate takes their seats in early January.

Does he actually think this is something that's going to win him more votes?

duploelabs

froog wrote: »

aaand he's just infected the military leaders of the united states.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/06/us-military-chiefs-coronavirus-quarantine-mark-milley-trump

To use the Irish political parlance, Trump's gone from 'cute hoor' to 'feckless eegit'

eire4

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

The polls were shown to be heavily biased against trump in 2016, there's no reason to expect that won't be the case again this time around.

Polls tend to include far more people who are politically engaged than not, which when you're talking about populist type movements like trump/brexit etc... this can lead to very misleading results.

A lot of the people who will vote trump, are not political... they are mostly people who are often completely disenfranchised from the system. They are essentially ghosts when it comes to many of these polls... but they'll emerge from the shadows on voting day. And that is ultimately when it matters the most to get involved in the process. Particularly if they see trump trailing in the polls - that will be extra motivation to vote!

It happened in brexit, it happened in the uk elections, it even happened in our own elections too.

Like I said, if you rely too heavily on those polls... you will very likely be setting yourselves up for a big shock. They are nowhere near as reliable as some of you seem to think they are!

This is a total canard that the polls got things wrong in 2016. Entering the final week of the 2016 election of the final 13 national polls they had Clinton in the lead by an average of 3.1%. The final result Clinton won the vote by 2.1% a difference well within the margin of error. Since of course the American system does not let the voters decide who their president is she of course lost in the electoral college. But the polls themselves were not off by any significant margin at all.

Brian?

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

My God. How in the world does he get away with it. Now if Trump said this , there would outrage and it would be used as ammo for years and years to come. Biden is a vile creep.

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1313248400360398848

Get away with what exactly???

Deebles McBeebles

froog wrote: »

aaand he's just infected the military leaders of the united states.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/06/us-military-chiefs-coronavirus-quarantine-mark-milley-trump

Jesus, he's a modern Typhoid Mary. Expect more of these stories unfortunately!

Quin_Dub

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Jesus, he's a modern Typhoid Mary. Expect more of these stories unfortunately!

We'll never get the full picture , they are refusing to let the CDC do contact tracing from the Rose Garden SCOTUS event and generally being economical with the information.

For each one of the people that have tested positive they in turn will probably have infected 2 or 3 more and so on.

At this stage there are probably the guts of a hundred cases that can be linked back to the White House.

Billy Mays

froog wrote: »

aaand he's just infected the military leaders of the united states.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/06/us-military-chiefs-coronavirus-quarantine-mark-milley-trump

The Transmitter-in-Chief

What a disaster he is