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Amazed by people buying new oil burners right now

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24567…17

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    #32
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    as good as free motor tax on 99% of petrols and diesels sold, what a genius idea!


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    #33
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Silent Running wrote: »
    What tech is changing fast?

    Battery tech? Nope, nothing new or revolutionary on the horizon.

    Motor tech? Nope, still the same old electric motor as there ever has been.

    The rest of the car is just, well, a car.

    Looking forward to your information, maybe I missed something.

    If the technology is so great why are they releasing new cars with better range. What's the range difference between the original leaf and a new one.

    A diesel car is still cheaper and easier to run than a electric car over it lifetime. Until you can charge an electric car at a charging point in the same time it takes to fill a diesel tank. And the same amount of charging points as petrol stations exist now people won't change.

    People don't want to plan their journeys with a 1hr break to charge up.


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    #34
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    irishgeo wrote: »
    If the technology is so great why are they releasing new cars with better range. What's the range difference between the original leaf and a new one.

    A diesel car is still cheaper and easier to run than a electric car over it lifetime. Until you can charge an electric car at a charging point in the same time it takes to fill a diesel tank. And the same amount of charging points as petrol stations exist now people won't change.

    People don't want to plan their journeys with a 1hr break to charge up.

    Nonsense argument by the ill informed.
    You charge over night for the day ahead. You shouldn’t be relying on public charge points. They don’t need to be on every street corner.

    Major routes around Ireland to facilitate cross country driving is fine.

    Silly argument saying you need to fill a battery in 5 mins is just nonsense.


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    #35
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,896 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Nonsense argument by the ill informed.
    You charge over night for the day ahead. You shouldn’t be relying on public charge points. They don’t need to be on every street corner.


    And this is why people are still buying oil burners. Not everyone has access to home charging so nearly all the benefits of BEV are lost to them.


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    #36
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Del2005 wrote: »
    And this is why people are still buying oil burners. Not everyone has access to home charging so nearly all the benefits of BEV are lost to them.

    Agree. EV’s not for everyone as mentioned on this forum hundreds of times.


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    #37
    graememk
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,839 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    irishgeo wrote: »
    If the technology is so great why are they releasing new cars with better range. What's the range difference between the original leaf and a new one.

    A diesel car is still cheaper and easier to run than a electric car over it lifetime. Until you can charge an electric car at a charging point in the same time it takes to fill a diesel tank. And the same amount of charging points as petrol stations exist now people won't change.

    People don't want to plan their journeys with a 1hr break to charge up.

    Electric car is cheaper and easier to run. When we had 12k km done on ours we had already saved 700 odd euro on fuel costs alone, and thats at the record low covid prices for fuel never mind 1.50 a litre.

    Have to charge the car every few days and the car is warm in the morning. No more visits to petrol stations!

    The battery tech has come on a lot since the original leaf, which was only 24kwh, 10years ago.

    Battery tech has stabilised.

    Most other cars now have actively cooled/heated batteries now too with the average size now sitting around 50kwh.

    Bigger cars will have bigger batteries as they arent as efficient as a small car, (also the case with ice cars!)


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    #38
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,484 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    I’ll be open to changing from diesel to electric when there’s a suitable vehicle and suitable infrastructure available.

    I’m doing 40k a year. Regularly towing 1.5ton behind. I make maybe 6-8 different stops a day many rural sites.

    There’s currently no electric vehicle to fit my needs. When there is and it’s affordable I will change.

    Currently use a 2.0 diesel Kuga when towing or a 1.6 diesel Peugeot partner when I’m not towing.


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    #39
    L'prof
    Registered Users Posts: 12,008 ✭✭✭✭L'prof


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Nonsense argument by the ill informed.
    You charge over night for the day ahead. You shouldn’t be relying on public charge points. They don’t need to be on every street corner.

    Major routes around Ireland to facilitate cross country driving is fine.

    Silly argument saying you need to fill a battery in 5 mins is just nonsense.

    What if you want to take a drive around the country staying in different places along the way where you don’t have the convenience of charging at home. You then have to spend hours upon hours at petrol stations recharging. It’s very hard for people to accept this type of change to their normal driving habits. I’m not against EV at all but limitations like this would definitely scare me off buying one in a single car household. As a 2nd car for tipping in and out of work and town it would be fine for me right now but I’m not in the market right now, nor am I ever likely to be, to buy a new/almost new secondary car


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    #40
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    _Brian wrote: »
    I’ll be open to changing from diesel to electric when there’s a suitable vehicle and suitable infrastructure available.

    I’m doing 40k a year. Regularly towing 1.5ton behind. I make maybe 6-8 different stops a day many rural sites.

    There’s currently no electric vehicle to fit my needs. When there is and it’s affordable I will change.

    Currently use a 2.0 diesel Kuga when towing or a 1.6 diesel Peugeot partner when I’m not towing.

    Do you tow for 40k a year?
    There’s a few EV owners on here that do well more miles per year than you in an EV.


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    #41
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    L'prof wrote: »
    What if you want to take a drive around the country staying in different places along the way where you don’t have the convenience of charging at home. You then have to spend hours upon hours at petrol stations recharging. It’s very hard for people to accept this type of change to their normal driving habits. I’m not against EV at all but limitations like this would definitely scare me off buying one in a single car household. As a 2nd car for tipping in and out of work and town it would be fine for me right now but I’m not in the market right now, nor am I ever likely to be, to buy a new/almost new secondary car

    Yeah loads of what if and buts.
    EV’s not for everyone.

    If traveling around Ireland then that’s where you need to rely on public points.
    Or you charge over night at the hotel, many have destination chargers now and at worse a 3 pin plug will provide enough to get you going the next morning.


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    #42
    Silent Running
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Silent Running


    irishgeo wrote: »
    If the technology is so great why are they releasing new cars with better range. What's the range difference between the original leaf and a new one.

    A diesel car is still cheaper and easier to run than a electric car over it lifetime. Until you can charge an electric car at a charging point in the same time it takes to fill a diesel tank. And the same amount of charging points as petrol stations exist now people won't change.

    People don't want to plan their journeys with a 1hr break to charge up.

    Oh dear, Where to start.

    New cars have bigger batteries. Leaf, 24kWh in the original, 62kWh in the new.

    A diesel car is cheaper to run over it's lifetime? Seriously? I'm going to need some kind of evidence to back this claim up. I've owned both and my experience is that your contention is rubbish.

    You can't compare refuelling a fossil fuel car to an EV. For example: can you refill your diesel car at night, at home while you sleep, and for a tenth of the cost of refuelling your diesel? Can you refuel your diesel car during the day, free with solar energy? The same amount of charging stations as petrol stations isn't necessary as most cars will charge at home.

    My EV will drive at least 300km of motorway before I recharge it. A rest stop at that distance is perfect for me. Eat a bit of food, use the loo and my car is ready for another 300kms. This isn't guesswork. Before Covid, I did this regularly.

    I suggest you educate yourself, or you risk looking like a fool.


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    #43
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,484 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Do you tow for 40k a year?
    There’s a few EV owners on here that do well more miles per year than you in an EV.

    No I don’t tow for all of it.
    But it might be one day a week or 2 weeks of towing every day.
    And I don’t have time to charge during the day.
    When I’m not towing I could have 100kg or 400kg in the van.


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    #44
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Silent Running wrote: »
    Oh dear, Where to start.

    New cars have bigger batteries. Leaf, 24kWh in the original, 62kWh in the new.

    A diesel car is cheaper to run over it's lifetime? Seriously? I'm going to need some kind of evidence to back this claim up. I've owned both and my experience is that your contention is rubbish.

    You can't compare refuelling a fossil fuel car to an EV. For example: can you refill your diesel car at night, at home while you sleep, and for a tenth of the cost of refuelling your diesel? Can you refuel your diesel car during the day, free with solar energy? The same amount of charging stations as petrol stations isn't necessary as most cars will charge at home.

    My EV will drive at least 300km of motorway before I recharge it. A rest stop at that distance is perfect for me. Eat a bit of food, use the loo and my car is ready for another 300kms. This isn't guesswork. Before Covid, I did this regularly.

    I suggest you educate yourself, or you risk looking like a fool.

    How much was your EV?


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    #45
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,403 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    EVs are still far too expensive. There's less actual engineering in them I'd say and generally a lower cost manufacturing process so I'd say most of this cost is R and D. Costs have to come down either way.
    There are far too few public charging points nationally. Imagine more people did get EVs, those with them now would find it even harder to find an available/working public charge point.
    There's the battery side of it too. Battery tech is changing and improving. Why buy an older car with lesser range/degrading battery while there are still options?

    Petrol/diesel is widely available. Second hand cars are relatively cheap. Until that changes or any of the above improve, that's gonna be the way it is.


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    #46
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I changed my car two years ago. Any electrical car in price bracket I was prepared to spend just isn't attractive enough. So I ended with 3 years old diesel with all the mod cons and automatic gearbox. I would buy petrol but I couldn't find one with spec good enough. I'm aware ice cars are on the way out so I have no desire to buy new one. I have also no desire to buy whatever latest design abomination Hyundai or Nissan produced. Especially Nissan, they own half of French car industry and yet they must have employed someone who designs camper vans to design their cars (all of them).

    Anyway no desire to get rid of my old car anytime soon and after that hopefully electric cars will get nicer at a reasonable price bracket. Environmentally keeping your car longer is probably the soundest thing to do anyway.


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    #47
    Icyseanfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 7,409 ✭✭✭Icyseanfitz


    My biggest issue with EVs is the throw away nature of them, you have to buy nearly new to get the stated range etc out of them as batteries diminish with age.


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    #48
    murphyebass
    Registered Users Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭murphyebass


    We run two cars both diesel. The Corolla diesel was the main car then a third child came so bought a galaxy diesel.

    Now the Corolla diesel is completely unnecessary. An EV would make way more sense as it’s only used for short spins but it just doesn’t make any sense financially to change.

    I’d go for an EV bus if you can show me one the same size as a galaxy..oh that’s right it doesn’t exist.

    Ultimately we’re miles off a nation of EV’s.


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    #49
    Vittu
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭Vittu


    If we all changed to EV cars, buses etc. These need to be charged overnight I presume for the next day. So is our electrical grid up to the task of such a demand at night for everyone. What about times when storms knock out the power for hours/days, what then? What will happen the cost of electricity, the ESB will be massive game players in the future.


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    #50
    Busman Paddy Lasty
    Registered Users Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Vittu wrote: »
    If we all changed to EV cars, buses etc. These need to be charged overnight I presume for the next day. So is our electrical grid up to the task of such a demand at night for everyone. What about times when storms knock out the power for hours/days, what then? What will happen the cost of electricity, the ESB will be massive game players in the future.

    More knowledgeable posters than myself have discussed this before and linked to Eirgrid dashboard. Check out the 24hr consumption trend, night time can be almost half the consumption of daytime usage. Plenty of scope for night charging. It's also the time of the 24 hour day that the grid will have proportion of renewables mainly from wind.

    http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#roi/demand

    Look at the demand drop off at night. When time-of-use billing comes online electricity will be cheaper again during these low demand hours.


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    #51
    Wildly Boaring
    Registered Users Posts: 3,630 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    Firstly I'd query the op and the nature of it.
    Those buying diesel/petrol going to experience massive depreciation vs those in EVs.

    But I'd agree with the posters here stating that running costs lower in EV into the future, along with other EV advantages, should lead most to buy new EV over petrol/diesel. But yet it doesn't.

    Also. The thread is about new cars. Secondhand is a different discussion. Those buying 5k petrols, probably right still for their use.

    Reasons for new sales to still be overwhelming diesel/petrol.
    1. Familiarity. There are a cohort who won't change till they have to. They probably believe an EV will give up in the rain or that the battery will explode. Charging is an impossiblity to them.

    2. Towing. Not sure how big this cohort but it's close to home. My father will buy new in the new year. It'll be diesel. He uses a trailer weekly.

    3. The €30k crossover crew. This is big. Very big. What manufacturer is going to get them over. Manufacturers have spent 10 years convincing the population that they need height. In particular our most well off generation, the 50 and 60 year olds. Height for visibility, height for the dodgy hips, height for safety. There's no EV catering for them. I'd say this is 50% of the new car market.
    They want to go PCP for something in the low 30s and repeat. A lot of them hardly do the mileage that a dearer EV will pay for the difference. The cheaper iD3 could catch a good lot, but gonna need to get them down to normal cars again.

    4. Diesel cards. No idea how big or small a group. But I've one. There's nothing handy for my boss to get me to an EV. Much handier throw boys like me the card and we drive on.

    5. Mileage. EVs in the lowest bracket. If I were getting mileage it's a secondhand diesel all the way.

    6. The charging network. Seriously I worked on new petrol station builds 12 years ago. We were leaving ducts to charge points. They're still not in. The government needs to get money out now for charge points.

    7. Tax. EV has the same car tax as small diesels. Was pretty obvious what happened in 2007 when the Greens went messing. Just announce new rates in new sales in 2022. 600 min on a diesel. 400 min on a petrol. Free on a new EV for 2022. Plan ahead for useage charges once diesel and petrol gone.

    8. Maybe should be back at 4.
    People with more than 2 kids in car seats...


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    #52
    amadangomor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭amadangomor


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    They should not be selling diesel cars in 2020, lack of education, a lot of older people will buy their diesel like they have done for past 30 years.

    Nothing to do about lack of education it's running costs. Why would someone be buying a petrol and paying 30/40% more in fuel costs.

    EVs are bonkers prices. It's like the companies have added 10 grand as that is what the government is giving in incentives.


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    #53
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    kippy wrote: »
    EVs are still far too expensive. There's less actual engineering in them I'd say and generally a lower cost manufacturing process so I'd say most of this cost is R and D. Costs have to come down either way.
    There are far too few public charging points nationally. Imagine more people did get EVs, those with them now would find it even harder to find an available/working public charge point.
    There's the battery side of it too. Battery tech is changing and improving. Why buy an older car with lesser range/degrading battery while there are still options?

    Petrol/diesel is widely available. Second hand cars are relatively cheap. Until that changes or any of the above improve, that's gonna be the way it is.

    That’s the point.
    Everyday EV owners don’t need the public infrastructure. Take a walk around the city now and 90% of the charge points are empty and available for use. Since charges were introduced it has got rid of the people just charging for the free juice, but it’s not financially worth it now over your gone rate.

    Battery tech, like everything else is consistently evolving. The same for mobile phones. If we all took that mantra, nobody would buy a new phone as the next day a better phone be out.

    Same for ICE. One day cars have halogen lights, literally the next day xenon was standard (BMW F10 for example).

    Older EV, like the 24 kWh leaf can be got for cheap also and still have a 100km range. They will suit many people but not all.


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    #54
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    The only EV on the horizon that will meet my needs is the Cybertruck.

    Until then I'm stuck with diesel.


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    #55
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    The only EV on the horizon that will meet my needs is the Cybertruck.

    Until then I'm stuck with diesel.

    We should see that here, in its reduced size and euro alterations though.


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    #56
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Gumbo wrote: »
    We should see that here, in its reduced size and euro alterations though.

    I can't wait for it to get here...ill be 1st in line!


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    #57
    murphyebass
    Registered Users Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭murphyebass


    Wildly Boaring wrote: »

    8. Maybe should be back at 4.
    People with more than 2 kids in car seats...

    This point is HUGE!

    There are significantly more people carriers on the road these days as kids have to be in car seats for years.

    Couple that with the choice of putting another kid or two in the “spare” pop up seats, friends, cousins etc... not to mention families with more than 3 kids.

    EV’s for some reason are just ignoring this segment. My Galaxy will be our main mode of transport for years for the reasons above and the mental amount of boot space it provides particularly when the back row is down.

    But again I don’t do mad mileage so an EV bus would be nice although I suspect the price when they do eventually arrive will be nuts compared to the petrol/diesel prices and there’ll be no second hand market for year!!

    Crazy market to ignore though imo.


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    #58
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    murphyebass wrote: »
    This point is HUGE!

    There are significantly more people carriers on the road these days as kids have to be in car seats for years.

    Couple that with the choice of putting another kid or two in the “spare” pop up seats, friends, cousins etc... not to mention families with more than 3 kids.

    EV’s for some reason are just ignoring this segment. My Galaxy will be our main mode of transport for years for the reasons above and the mental amount of boot space it provides particularly when the back row is down.

    But again I don’t do mad mileage so an EV bus would be nice although I suspect the price when they do eventually arrive will be nuts compared to the petrol/diesel prices and there’ll be no second hand market for year!!

    Crazy market to ignore though imo.

    its the area the batteries and the weight, a thing that size would have no range at all.


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    #59
    amadangomor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭amadangomor


    Gumbo wrote: »
    That’s the point.
    Everyday EV owners don’t need the public infrastructure. Take a walk around the city now and 90% of the charge points are empty and available for use. Since charges were introduced it has got rid of the people just charging for the free juice, but it’s not financially worth it now over your gone rate.

    Battery tech, like everything else is consistently evolving. The same for mobile phones. If we all took that mantra, nobody would buy a new phone as the next day a better phone be out.

    Same for ICE. One day cars have halogen lights, literally the next day xenon was standard (BMW F10 for example).

    Older EV, like the 24 kWh leaf can be got for cheap also and still have a 100km range. They will suit many people but not all.

    No thanks, pass a Nissan leaf most days on the motorway and he/she is crawling along at 80kph which is ridiculous and dangerous.


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    #60
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    amadangomor wrote: »
    No thanks, pass a Nissan leaf most days on the motorway and he/she is crawling along at 80kph which is ridiculous and dangerous.

    And that’s your right to make a personal choice.

    80 on motorway is quite low especially if limit is 120. What motorway is it?
    Not so bad on M50 when there’s 3 lanes, you can sit on the inside and the limit is 100. Maybe that person has calculated that sticking to 80 means the journey can be done without stopping for a charge. I can respect that.

    My car has a rated range of 400+ but I drive it like any other car so do t need to Molly colly it at all. But again, that suits me, maybe not you.


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    #61
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    I can't wait for it to get here...ill be 1st in line!

    I love it too!
    Nearly put a deposit on one but the fiasco with the pre orders for the M3 meant that people didn’t get them up front so I’ll wait and see and keep saving :)


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