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Do we need a new approach to Covid 19?

  • 30-09-2020 7:48pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    Given that large parts of Asia/Australia/New Zealand are living fairly normal lives and with extremely low levels of virus is Europe and the Americas approach sub optiminal in terms of quality of life for everyone (at risk and lower risk). In previous pandemics it ran its course and the at risk suffered.

    This pandemic seems to have the worst of both worlds virus still at high prevalence and everyone's life suffering.

    Asia I feel are showing they are now the top continent economically and scientifically and have taken over USA and Europe who are badly floundering in this pandemic.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭ 3xh


    Woody79 wrote: »
    Given that large parts of Asia/Australia/New Zealand are living fairly normal lives and with extremely low levels of virus is Europe and the Americas approach sub optiminal in terms of quality of life for everyone (at risk and lower risk). In previous pandemics it ran it course and the at risk suffered. This pandemic seems to have the worst of both worlds virus high prevalence and everyone's life suffering.
    Asia I feel are showing they are now the top contingent and have taken over USA and Europe who ate badly floundering.

    This question again. I’ll bite.

    Yes and no.

    Yes, get rid of NPHET as they currently operate. Plus that new in-between committee that is meant to package the advice better for Michael, Leo and Eamon to swallow and make the government govern.

    No. Let’s not be like Australia and NZ.


    Thankfully, despite all said above, we do appear to be aligning somewhat closer to a pan-European travel area.

    I’ve said it in other threads. Watch Dr. Feeley on prime time last night. If you half understand him by the end of it, you’re 90% of the way there to understanding how we’re being fed a pack of statistical lies by NPHET and co.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    3xh wrote: »
    This question again. I’ll bite.

    Yes and no.

    Yes, get rid of NPHET as they currently operate. Plus that new in-between committee that is meant to package the advice better for Michael, Leo and Eamon to swallow and make the government govern.

    No. Let’s not be like Australia and NZ.


    Thankfully, despite all said above, we do appear to be aligning somewhat closer to a pan-European travel area.

    I’ve said it in other threads. Watch Dr. Feeley on prime time last night. If you half understand him by the end of it, you’re 90% of the way there to understanding how we’re being fed a pack of statistical lies by NPHET and co.

    My point is I listened to Dr Feeley and some points were correct. I agreed with him saying the country is depressed socially which is something you can't quantify. Alot of people on both sides of the fence (stay at homers/open up society) are simply fed up with this. Point is current strategy is pleasing nobody. I have to say the only country i can see that is doing the live with covid policy successfully in europe seems to be Germany. We certainly are not able for it. Our testing regime and hospitals are simply not adequate to live with covid policy. HSE then uses media to frighten population due to their own inadequacies. You cant expect a 20 something to socially distance for 2 years. It's the opposite of what they should be doing and is probably bad for their health. We need a change in direction and I have to agree with Sam McConkey in that discussion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ wellwhynot


    Yes we do. Of course we do.

    The death rates since June in no way justify the complete over reaction by the government/NPHET.

    Many, many more people will die from delayed screening or treatment than Covid. Hundreds of thousands will be unemployed by January. Who will pay for it all?

    I fear the government have gone too far down the NPHET restriction rabbit hole to turn back now.

    All working age people who are not vulnerable should be back at work in their offices. We should only be testing the sick. All the billions saved on testing snotty noses and PUP should be diverted to:

    1. Increasing hospital capacity. Shocked they are only thinking of this now despite being given a blank cheque and 6 months of empty hospitals.

    2. Rapid testing for all medical staff. Extra PPE/supports for nursing homes.

    3. A national advertising campaign encouraging people to maintain a healthy BMI, eat better, take Vitamin D, Zinc and C to boost immune system.

    4. Option for online schooling for vulnerable children/vulnerable parents.

    5. Supports for elderly in the community. Strictly adhered to shopping and exercise times. A supply of PPE for visitors. Home help once or twice a week.

    All that would probably cost a quarter of what we will spend keeping healthy people at home and closing businesses this winter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    wellwhynot wrote: »
    Yes we do. Of course we do.

    The death rates since June in no way justify the complete over reaction by the government/NPHET.

    Many, many more people will die from delayed screening or treatment than Covid. Hundreds of thousands will be unemployed by January. Who will pay for it all?

    I fear the government have gone too far down the NPHET restriction rabbit hole to turn back now.

    All working age people who are not vulnerable should be back at work in their offices. We should only be testing the sick. All the billions saved on testing snotty noses and PUP should be diverted to:

    1. Increasing hospital capacity. Shocked they are only thinking of this now despite being given a blank cheque and 6 months of empty hospitals.

    2. Rapid testing for all medical staff. Extra PPE/supports for nursing homes.

    3. A national advertising campaign encouraging people to maintain a healthy BMI, eat better, take Vitamin D, Zinc and C to boost immune system.

    4. Option for online schooling for vulnerable children/vulnerable parents.

    5. Supports for elderly in the community. Strictly adhered to shopping and exercise times. A supply of PPE for visitors. Home help once or twice a week.

    All that would probably cost a quarter of what we will spend keeping healthy people at home and closing businesses this winter.

    Some of your points are good especially 3. Do we have the testing and hospital capacity to follow your strategy in full. ICU staff are hard to come by. It's not simply a case of buying a ventilator.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ wellwhynot


    Woody79 wrote: »
    Point is do we have the testing and hospital capacity to follow your strategy. ICU staff are hard to come by. It's not simply a case of buying a ventilator.

    I know that but they had 6 months and 73,000 applications from health staff answering Ireland’s call. I am sure some were ICU staff. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe they hired only a hundred or so.

    The hospitals were empty. They were given every resource they asked for but once again the bar for the health service is so low we just accept it. Sweden managed to double their ICU capacity in a couple of months.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭ DaSilva


    Woody79 wrote: »
    Given that large parts of Asia/Australia/New Zealand are living fairly normal lives and with extremely low levels of virus is Europe and the Americas approach sub optiminal in terms of quality of life for everyone (at risk and lower risk). In previous pandemics it ran its course and the at risk suffered.

    This pandemic seems to have the worst of both worlds virus still at high prevalence and everyone's life suffering.

    I agree, I want to first say that I do not envy any politicians role at the moment and I don't lay any criticism at any politician personally. Having said that, I think what is ultimately underlying our strategy, is minimizing political risk. It wasn't thought to be possible before this pandemic, but it does seem like intense restrictions can eradicate a respiratory virus, so we could pursue a covid free island strategy, but it of course comes with huge political, social and economic costs. Alternatively we could take a much more relaxed restrictions approach but again, this would carry significant risks. I'm personally in favour of either of those over what we are doing right now, though who knows, maybe this middle of the road approach will turn out to have been the best when its all finally settled.
    Woody79 wrote: »
    Asia I feel are showing they are now the top continent economically and scientifically and have taken over USA and Europe who are badly floundering in this pandemic.

    Asia is definitely on its way to being on top economically, but I'm not so sure about scientifically. I think if anything, what this crisis has demonstrated, is that the USA and Europe are very weak politically (internally that is, not sure on the global geopolitics).

    Our society is very arrogant about politics, there is constant derision of opposing views, which only furthers the divide. The anti mask protesters are not idiots, the anti lockdown people are not heartless and the pro restrictions people are not panicked fascists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,351 ✭✭✭ NegativeCreep


    wellwhynot wrote: »
    Yes we do. Of course we do.

    The death rates since June in no way justify the complete over reaction by the government/NPHET.

    Many, many more people will die from delayed screening or treatment than Covid. Hundreds of thousands will be unemployed by January. Who will pay for it all?

    I fear the government have gone too far down the NPHET restriction rabbit hole to turn back now.

    All working age people who are not vulnerable should be back at work in their offices. We should only be testing the sick. All the billions saved on testing snotty noses and PUP should be diverted to:

    1. Increasing hospital capacity. Shocked they are only thinking of this now despite being given a blank cheque and 6 months of empty hospitals.

    2. Rapid testing for all medical staff. Extra PPE/supports for nursing homes.

    3. A national advertising campaign encouraging people to maintain a healthy BMI, eat better, take Vitamin D, Zinc and C to boost immune system.

    4. Option for online schooling for vulnerable children/vulnerable parents.

    5. Supports for elderly in the community. Strictly adhered to shopping and exercise times. A supply of PPE for visitors. Home help once or twice a week.

    All that would probably cost a quarter of what we will spend keeping healthy people at home and closing businesses this winter.

    It’s madness that nothing has been done to increase hospital capacity in 6 months. Now we’re shutting places down because there’s a figure in the high teens of people in ICU. It’s madness for a country as developed as ourselves


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ wellwhynot


    On the testing capacity yes we would if we stopped testing the 68,000 or so per week that are not sick. I know some of the private hospitals offer Covid tests with a 2 - 3 hour turnaround. I am sure there is even faster technology out there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭ Assetbacked


    We need to cut the government advertising budget for its covid news as a start. So many idiots follow the government narrative as told by the sponsored media articles hook, line and sinker.

    There are large portions of non-vulnerable people terrified of getting covid as if it is actually something they should be worried about. This is completely unhelpful to have so many people fearful as they will follow blindly what they are told as a result.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ wellwhynot


    We need to cut the government advertising budget for its covid news as a start. So many idiots follow the government narrative as told by the sponsored media articles hook, line and sinker.

    There are large portions of non-vulnerable people terrified of getting covid as if it is actually something they should be worried about. This is completely unhelpful to have so many people fearful as they will follow blindly what they are told as a result.

    Couldn’t agree more. Literally you would need to have landed from the moon not to know Covid is in Ireland. We don’t need 5 minute radio, bus shelter, and full page press adverts ad nauseam. The language/ tone is so patronising and infantilising.

    Consumer confidence is shot with many healthy people afraid to leave their homes even within the guidelines. NPHET have such a myopic view but the blame clearly lies with the government who should have some economists in the room before blindly accepting every new restriction suggested.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    We need to cut the government advertising budget for its covid news as a start. So many idiots follow the government narrative as told by the sponsored media articles hook, line and sinker.

    There are large portions of non-vulnerable people terrified of getting covid as if it is actually something they should be worried about. This is completely unhelpful to have so many people fearful as they will follow blindly what they are told as a result.

    On paper I'm non vulnerable. 40, not overweight, exercise regularly (member of running club 30 years), reasonable diet, no known underlying conditions and I am fearful of picking this up. Rightly or wrongly listening to hse media I am anxious of this and of passing it on to others. Never worried about it seriously at all until the lockdown after St Patrick's Day. Cant put the genie back into the bottle now. It's just the media language at the moment. It's like it could be you in icu next narrative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭ 3xh


    Woody79 wrote: »
    Never worried about it seriously at all until the lockdown after St Patrick's Day.

    Does this not prove how potent media coverage is?

    What made you worried from St. Patrick’s Day onwards? You couldn’t have been genned up about it then so was it the Varadkar speech, the media clips of mass death swarming over Northern Italy, our own case numbers increasing which we’ve subsequently found out aren’t 100% accurate anyway?

    Edited to add; I see you edited your own post too while I was responding. The very latter part of your post does indeed prove the point in fact!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    3xh wrote: »
    Does this not prove how potent media coverage is?

    What made you worried from St. Patrick’s Day onwards? You couldn’t have been genned up about it then so was it the Varadkar speech, the media clips of mass death swarming over Northern Italy, our own case numbers increasing which we’ve subsequently found out aren’t 100% accurate anyway?

    All of the above. I'm trying to educate myself and know deep inside the government is over egging it to most of the population and especially anyone under 30 but it's very hard when your own government tells you everyone is at risk. Cant understand why government think a 25 year old is going to socially distance for 2 years. It's beggars belief. That would hurt their health and well being far more than any virus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭ wellwhynot


    Woody79 wrote: »
    On paper I'm non vulnerable. 40, not overweight, exercise regularly (member of running club 30 years), reasonable diet, no known underlying conditions and I am fearful of picking this up. Rightly or wrongly listening to hse media I am anxious of this and of passing it on to others. Never worried about it seriously at all until the lockdown after St Patrick's Day. Cant put the genie back into the bottle now. It's just the media language at the moment. It's like it could be you in icu next narrative.

    Ronan Glynn when asked by the Covid Committee today at the Oireachtas about the median age range said he didn’t have it to hand but ‘late 80’s.’ He said about 90% of the deaths had underlying conditions. Make sure you always take Vitamin D (4000iu minimum). Zinc and Vit C if you have a cold. Most likely you would be one of the many with no symptoms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    wellwhynot wrote: »
    Ronan Glynn when asked by the Covid Committee today at the Oireachtas about the median age range said he didn’t have it to hand but ‘late 80’s.’ He said about 90% of the deaths had underlying conditions. Make sure you always take Vitamin D (4000iu minimum). Zinc and Vit C if you have a cold. Most likely you would be one of the many with no symptoms.

    Yes taking vitamin D supplements. Especially now going into winter. Thank you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭ 3xh


    Woody79 wrote: »
    All of the above. I'm trying to educate myself and know deep inside the government is over egging it to most of the population and especially anyone under 30 but it's very hard when your own government tells you everyone is at risk.

    The message is easier to convey when they use the ‘community spirit’ argument. Harder to argue against.

    If they started carving up society into groups like, ‘you’re 30, fit, have a job, off you go’ and ‘you’re 60, fat, previous heart problems, stay at home and don’t venture out, no bingo, no pints allowed we’ll be watching’ their message wouldn’t have been so effective to date.

    It’s easier to corral everyone by using the tactic of the virus affects everybody, it knows no boundaries, it doesn’t care about your age, if you’re a single parent to a child or you’re your sick father’s carer etc. it’ll get you, don’t take that risk......

    It’s clearly worked.

    It’s taken the admirable bravery of Dr. Feeley to crack this fear, uncertainty and doubt mantra wide open for the benefit of us all. He was ridiculed, distanced by his employer, mock by many in the media.

    All I can say is well done for at least openly questioning it all and admitting you believed much of it. I did too. But looking at my post history you wouldn’t agree with that. How could anyone say in March it’s fine after what we began to see ramp up from January onwards?

    I joined up here in August after reading the constant fear mongering and complete misinterpretation of statistics etc.

    Keep researching. Good luck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭ anais


    Well....... In my 40s,a marathon runner and mind myself. I was terrified. Until I was back into the actual classroom. (I'm a Primary school teacher). Either I've a magic cloak repelling this virus in my tiny prefab with 25 kids, non masked and minimal social distancing.... Or I'm missing something really important. Looking at the kiddies, their social and educational development is paramount and rightly so. They're so happy and adjusted, making great progress. Soooo, the gov are either risking teachers lives or it really isn't so terribly awful as the media is portraying....I just wish there was better communication as the stress levels amongst staff are enormous


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    anais wrote: »
    Well....... In my 40s,a marathon runner and mind myself. I was terrified. Until I was back into the actual classroom. (I'm a Primary school teacher). Either I've a magic cloak repelling this virus in my tiny prefab with 25 kids, non masked and minimal social distancing.... Or I'm missing something really important. Looking at the kiddies, their social and educational development is paramount and rightly so. They're so happy and adjusted, making great progress. Soooo, the gov are either risking teachers lives or it really isn't so terribly awful as the media is portraying....I just wish there was better communication as the stress levels amongst staff are enormous

    Yes marathon runner also. I ran Dublin last three years and doing virtual this year which is pure :( compared to a real one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭ anais


    Woody79 wrote:
    Yes marathon runner also. I ran Dublin last three years and doing virtual this year which is pure compared to a real one.

    Twas to be my '5 in a row' marathon. Sigh. Can just about muster enough energy to do the half on the day. Fair play for doing the training. No joke without a 'real' race. Next year!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    anais wrote: »
    Twas to be my '5 in a row' marathon. Sigh. Can just about muster enough energy to do the half on the day. Fair play for doing the training. No joke without a 'real' race. Next year!!!

    Training not going as well as usual. Did manage 55 miles last week which was good. Not so good this week thus far.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭ Woody79


    DaSilva wrote: »
    I agree, I want to first say that I do not envy any politicians role at the moment and I don't lay any criticism at any politician personally. Having said that, I think what is ultimately underlying our strategy, is minimizing political risk. It wasn't thought to be possible before this pandemic, but it does seem like intense restrictions can eradicate a respiratory virus, so we could pursue a covid free island strategy, but it of course comes with huge political, social and economic costs. Alternatively we could take a much more relaxed restrictions approach but again, this would carry significant risks. I'm personally in favour of either of those over what we are doing right now, though who knows, maybe this middle of the road approach will turn out to have been the best when its all finally settled.



    Asia is definitely on its way to being on top economically, but I'm not so sure about scientifically. I think if anything, what this crisis has demonstrated, is that the USA and Europe are very weak politically (internally that is, not sure on the global geopolitics).

    Our society is very arrogant about politics, there is constant derision of opposing views, which only furthers the divide. The anti mask protesters are not idiots, the anti lockdown people are not heartless and the pro restrictions people are not panicked fascists.

    This virus has exposed the weaknesses in our society. I think unfortunately we will be waiting until science catches up worldwide before this calms.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 838 The_Brood


    A million times yes.

    2-3 weeks of total army China style lockdown to kill the virus. It has worked for China.

    Or

    Swedish approach, we learn to live with it.

    One or the other.

    Just not anymore of this endless half arsed lockdown that is destroying all our lives, and is clearly not working with cases continuing to rise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭ Real Donald Trump


    The_Brood wrote: »
    A million times yes.

    2-3 weeks of total army China style lockdown to kill the virus. It has worked for China.

    Or

    Swedish approach, we learn to live with it.

    One or the other.

    Just not anymore of this endless half arsed lockdown that is destroying all our lives, and is clearly not working with cases continuing to rise.

    Chinese method, with the airports open :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,351 ✭✭✭ NegativeCreep


    The_Brood wrote: »
    A million times yes.

    2-3 weeks of total army China style lockdown to kill the virus. It has worked for China.

    Or

    Swedish approach, we learn to live with it.

    One or the other.

    Just not anymore of this endless half arsed lockdown that is destroying all our lives, and is clearly not working with cases continuing to rise.

    I kind of agree. As much as I hate restrictions, we either lock down or we don’t. And open up and get on with it if not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 828 ✭✭✭ Real Donald Trump


    I kind of agree. As much as I hate restrictions, we either lock down or we don’t. And open up and get on with it if not.

    We could lockdown for months on end, but it would still be around. New Zealand is proof of that. Lockdowns aren't the answer, and people need to realise and accept that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    The_Brood wrote: »
    A million times yes.

    2-3 weeks of total army China style lockdown to kill the virus. It has worked for China.

    Or

    Swedish approach, we learn to live with it.

    One or the other.

    Just not anymore of this endless half arsed lockdown that is destroying all our lives, and is clearly not working with cases continuing to rise.

    Nope. Chinese method is not applicable. First off they only quarantined some parts of the country. Not whole actually small portion of it despite virus being in the wild anyway. Secondly they are not virus free. Not a hope for that. They just stop publish numbers and that is that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ ThunbergsAreGo


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Nope. Chinese method is not applicable. First off they only quarantined some parts of the country. Not whole actually small portion of it despite virus being in the wild anyway. Secondly they are not virus free. Not a hope for that. They just stop publish numbers and that is that.

    Then if the virus is as deadly as we are told why aren't there coffins in the streets or queues for crematoriums, both things we were told did/would happen?

    It would actually helped if the government published a factual explanation of what they know about the virus and what it doesn't know. There are so msny contradictions in the whole thing, from the WHO downwards


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭ ShineOn7


    3xh wrote: »
    I’ve said it in other threads. Watch Dr. Feeley on prime time last night. If you half understand him by the end of it, you’re 90% of the way there to understanding how we’re being fed a pack of statistical lies by NPHET and co.

    Can this be viewed anywhere apart from the RTE Player?

    The amount of Ads on that thing is disgusting

    Cheers


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭ froog


    The_Brood wrote: »
    A million times yes.

    2-3 weeks of total army China style lockdown to kill the virus. It has worked for China.

    Or

    Swedish approach, we learn to live with it.

    One or the other.

    Just not anymore of this endless half arsed lockdown that is destroying all our lives, and is clearly not working with cases continuing to rise.

    Ah yes the chinese method. Welding people into apartment blocks and hauling away people in vans. No thanks.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 35,999 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    We cannot take a no covid approach.

    We share 300 uncontrolled miles of a border with a different juristiction with a differing covid approach.

    It simply cannot work.

    New Zealand closed down a whole city due to FOUR cases.

    We'd never be out of lockdown if we tried the no covid approach


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