Law Firm Milkrounds 20/21

Wonderstruck

nicolesd wrote: »

hey, wondering if anyone has any advice passed my final exam there when the results came out and on the hunt for a training contract i applied to a few of the small firms in my local town and have heard back from 2 one general practice and one commercial law firm.

i am interested in criminal law but do i just take either one of these for the training or hold out another year or so in the hope i get something in a criminal law firm? undecided about what to do or will i be at a huge disadvantage if i take the commercial law firm if i later want to go and practice criminal law?

Try for general practice. But I'd be honest if you find somewhere good and pass the interview, I wouldn't be so hung up on Criminal. Try and get some solid litigation and court experience even if it's civil litigation experience, as that's gonna be relevant for moving into criminal (I don't do ANY litigation so you can imagine if I tried to move into criminal I would be like "what's a court?")

Also, criminal is a lot DARKER than it appears from the outside. No I don't work in Criminal but people have the misconception it's a lot of fun from but remember you'll be dealing with a lot very unsavoury characters and learning about a lot of particularly awful stuff! Not to turn you off it, but it's not for everyone so it's good to have worked in other areas! :pac:

It's totally possible to move into Criminal from other areas of law as well!

Anyone having trouble with indenture forms, PM me! I'll try to help, they sent back mine for failing to date my signature so remember to do that!

rickmatt

SKLaw wrote: »

I’m in the same position to be honest and I’ve passed them all last November but haven’t been lucky enough to secure a TC. At this rate, I’m thinking I’ll have to wait until 2022 to start Blackhall

Best of luck!

Same boat, very disheartening but feels a bit out of our control.

Lallers96

Bantz_Control wrote: »

You might take the initiative of setting one up!

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058191279

Done!

neon123

Would anyone who has had success with securing a TC be willing to share a copy of their cover letter via email ? I’m interested in seeing what and how much people are including as I’m getting a bit conscious that mine isn’t up to par. Obviously feel free to redact anything confidential. Free free to to PM

Bantz_Control

neon123 wrote: »

Would anyone who has had success with securing a TC be willing to share a copy of their cover letter via email ? I’m interested in seeing what and how much people are including as I’m getting a bit conscious that mine isn’t up to par. Obviously feel free to redact anything confidential. Free free to to PM

Hey Neon, I've had good luck with applications, so PM me and I'll send you mine.

SKLaw

Bantz_Control wrote: »

Hey Neon, I've had good luck with applications, so PM me and I'll send you mine.

Hi, would it be possible to see your CV/cover letter too? Redacted confidential info of course just slowly losing hope of getting a TC so it’d be helpful to see what I need to tweak in mine. TIA

channing90

SKLaw wrote: »

Hi, would it be possible to see your CV/cover letter too? Redacted confidential info of course just slowly losing hope of getting a TC so it’d be helpful to see what I need to tweak in mine. TIA

I am on the same both, please can I have a copy.

manofsheeeep

Hi guys, I apologise if this doesn't fit the thread, but I really need some advice.

I've an LL.B, LL.M and all FE1's passed. I've good grades in everything, but could never attain legal experience.

I've been stuck in a rubbish customer service position since completing the FE1's and just can't progress out of It. I think my lack of legal experience and maintaining this job is a stain on my CV. My CV and Cover Letter themselves seem acceptable as I've consulted agencies a few times on these.

I've applied for what must be thousands of legal jobs over the past few years, and I've even done compliance courses to try get an "in" as an entry level "analyst", but haven't even got so far as an interview yet.

My question is, what avenues should I explore for progression to a trainee? I've been applying for compliance analyst type roles and clerical officer positions as of late, but no dice yet.
I'm just so frustrated at the prospect of my FE1's expiring before I attain a training contract.

I appreciate any feedback anyone might have here.

Cheers

Bantz_Control

manofsheeeep wrote: »

Hi guys, I apologise if this doesn't fit the thread, but I really need some advice.

I've an LL.B, LL.M and all FE1's passed. I've good grades in everything, but could never attain legal experience.

I've been stuck in a rubbish customer service position since completing the FE1's and just can't progress out of It. I think my lack of legal experience and maintaining this job is a stain on my CV. My CV and Cover Letter themselves seem acceptable as I've consulted agencies a few times on these.

I've applied for what must be thousands of legal jobs over the past few years, and I've even done compliance courses to try get an "in" as an entry level "analyst", but haven't even got so far as an interview yet.

My question is, what avenues should I explore for progression to a trainee? I've been applying for compliance analyst type roles and clerical officer positions as of late, but no dice yet.
I'm just so frustrated at the prospect of my FE1's expiring before I attain a training contract.

I appreciate any feedback anyone might have here.

Cheers

Sorry to hear the position you're in. Are you saying that you've applied for what feels like thousands of legal positions but haven't gotten so much as an interview? Are you sure there aren't some fundamental issues/errors with your application(s) that can be fixed? It's really difficult as specific guidance isn't widely relevant as everyone's situation is unique.

FE1Hopefully1

manofsheeeep wrote: »

Hi guys, I apologise if this doesn't fit the thread, but I really need some advice.

I've an LL.B, LL.M and all FE1's passed. I've good grades in everything, but could never attain legal experience.

I've been stuck in a rubbish customer service position since completing the FE1's and just can't progress out of It. I think my lack of legal experience and maintaining this job is a stain on my CV. My CV and Cover Letter themselves seem acceptable as I've consulted agencies a few times on these.

I've applied for what must be thousands of legal jobs over the past few years, and I've even done compliance courses to try get an "in" as an entry level "analyst", but haven't even got so far as an interview yet.

My question is, what avenues should I explore for progression to a trainee? I've been applying for compliance analyst type roles and clerical officer positions as of late, but no dice yet.
I'm just so frustrated at the prospect of my FE1's expiring before I attain a training contract.

I appreciate any feedback anyone might have here.

Cheers

Hi I know of a place that is taking on a legal intern in Dublin city centre !
It’s not advertised yet but I’ve been told they will be putting it up on the law society website

You can message me if you’d like !

bobbyness

manofsheeeep wrote: »

Hi guys, I apologise if this doesn't fit the thread, but I really need some advice.

I've an LL.B, LL.M and all FE1's passed. I've good grades in everything, but could never attain legal experience.

I've been stuck in a rubbish customer service position since completing the FE1's and just can't progress out of It. I think my lack of legal experience and maintaining this job is a stain on my CV. My CV and Cover Letter themselves seem acceptable as I've consulted agencies a few times on these.

I've applied for what must be thousands of legal jobs over the past few years, and I've even done compliance courses to try get an "in" as an entry level "analyst", but haven't even got so far as an interview yet.

My question is, what avenues should I explore for progression to a trainee? I've been applying for compliance analyst type roles and clerical officer positions as of late, but no dice yet.
I'm just so frustrated at the prospect of my FE1's expiring before I attain a training contract.

I appreciate any feedback anyone might have here.

Cheers

Got to admit as someone who is about to sit their final 2 fe1 exams, and also struggling to find a training contract it isn't giving me much hope.

All I can say is maybe looking at your cover letter and make sure it properly highlights the clearly proven and well educated solicitor you would make.

Wish you all the best with your search. You're not alone in the struggle!

Bantz_Control

I'm always amazed by the disparity between the people that are demonstrably well-qualified (perhaps over-qualified) that find extraordinary difficult to source a TC, while on the other hand, you have college students with no legal experience being handed training contracts with the most prestigious law firms (big 4) in the country.

I wonder what explains the discrepancy?

bobbyness

Bantz_Control wrote: »

I'm always amazed by the disparity between the people that are demonstrably well-qualified (perhaps over-qualified) that find extraordinary difficult to source a TC, while on the other hand, you have college students with no legal experience being handed training contracts with the most prestigious law firms (big 4) in the country.

I wonder what explains the discrepancy?

At the risk of sounding like a cynic, I think it often comes down to who you know, rather than what you know.

FE1new

Bantz_Control wrote: »

I'm always amazed by the disparity between the people that are demonstrably well-qualified (perhaps over-qualified) that find extraordinary difficult to source a TC, while on the other hand, you have college students with no legal experience being handed training contracts with the most prestigious law firms (big 4) in the country.

I wonder what explains the discrepancy?

I would say its about planning for the firms. A college student isn't going to need a TC next year or even the year after in some cases. For example you are not likely to go into the milkrounds of the big 4 and get a TC for that year. Also sometimes it's that we don't sell ourselves well in the applications. Mine were attrocus even though I have the experience, grades and some FE1s done. Another point would be do college students give you a blank slate, they can be molded to the firms way.

I eventually did get a TC in one of the big 4 and can assure you I had zero connections but it did take a few rounds and plenty of PFOs.

Wonderboy2010

Maybe in some cases. However, I have friends who secured internships and training contracts with the Big 5 with no connections at all in their 2nd year of college. They were simply top class candidates who excelled academically, very involved in extracurriculars, and well prepared. They got the ball rolling from the very start of first year, attending insight days and applying to internships exclusively for first years (IE: Matheson Career First programme). I guess you can say they made connections from doing these things, but, it definitely wasn't from nepotism.

Lallers96

Need to go on a bit of a rant before I shoot myself in the foot and say something I shouldn't to my managing partner.

Can someone who has began their TC, or previously done so, please tell me that this is normal. I'm about to finish my 2nd week in office training and I haven't done tap all to do with solicitor related work. All I've done is secretarial work which, I'm sorry, is a ridiculously boring job that I didn't sign up for. I wouldn't mind if I was given stuff to do and I'm constantly chasing every solicitor every day at multiple times in the day to help out but they don't give me much to do, if anything.

I've kept a record of what I've done and it's pathetic what I've learned so far. All I've done is file stuff online and go through a grubby old archive room, finding the odd document a solicitor needs but can't be bothered to look themselves for it. I've been moved around between 2 offices constantly and conveniently it's always to be there when one secretary is off that day. The "main office" that I'm in I'm literally sitting in the same desk as a secretary who's on maternity leave. All I really do is look at a handful of emails that come through, forward them onto the relevant solicitor and answer the occasional phone call if one of the other secretaries can't be bothered to answer it.

Because of how hard a TC is I'm going to just have to stick it out, but my gut is telling me that I'm being completely used by this company and I'm just minimum wage, cheap cover for a secretary that's on maternity and on some days where the 1 secretary in the 2nd office is on their day off. I'm actually scared that I'm being taken for a ride here and the moment the main secretary is back I'll be dumped by them and I'll be left still looking for a TC and have learned nothing.

I know it sounds so uppity but I didn't study law for 6 years to sit at a desk answering calls and reading about 5 emails in the day, praying for 5pm to come quicker. I hate the work I've been given so far, bar the odd odd job I've been given that seems somewhat solicitor related.

Does anyone have any experiences that were similar? Am I actually being taken for granted here, or am I just over thinking things?

Fe1new4

Lallers96 wrote: »

Need to go on a bit of a rant before I shoot myself in the foot and say something I shouldn't to my managing partner.

Can someone who has began their TC, or previously done so, please tell me that this is normal. I'm about to finish my 2nd week in office training and I haven't done tap all to do with solicitor related work. All I've done is secretarial work which, I'm sorry, is a ridiculously boring job that I didn't sign up for. I wouldn't mind if I was given stuff to do and I'm constantly chasing every solicitor every day at multiple times in the day to help out but they don't give me much to do, if anything.

I've kept a record of what I've done and it's pathetic what I've learned so far. All I've done is file stuff online and go through a grubby old archive room, finding the odd document a solicitor needs but can't be bothered to look themselves for it. I've been moved around between 2 offices constantly and conveniently it's always to be there when one secretary is off that day. The "main office" that I'm in I'm literally sitting in the same desk as a secretary who's on maternity leave. All I really do is look at a handful of emails that come through, forward them onto the relevant solicitor and answer the occasional phone call if one of the other secretaries can't be bothered to answer it.

Because of how hard a TC is I'm going to just have to stick it out, but my gut is telling me that I'm being completely used by this company and I'm just minimum wage, cheap cover for a secretary that's on maternity and on some days where the 1 secretary in the 2nd office is on their day off. I'm actually scared that I'm being taken for a ride here and the moment the main secretary is back I'll be dumped by them and I'll be left still looking for a TC and have learned nothing.

I know it sounds so uppity but I didn't study law for 6 years to sit at a desk answering calls and reading about 5 emails in the day, praying for 5pm to come quicker. I hate the work I've been given so far, bar the odd odd job I've been given that seems somewhat solicitor related.

Does anyone have any experiences that were similar? Am I actually being taken for granted here, or am I just over thinking things?

Not the answer you’re looking for but as someone who has been working as a secretary for almost two years now and still looking for a TC I really dislike how you’re talking down about that sort of work. It’s as boring as you make it, you’ve only been there two weeks and over the past two years I’ve learnt more about procedures/ the practical side of law than I ever did at college, if you do the work you’re given well and enthusiastically they’re much more likely to include you in higher responsibility jobs. I’d say give it time.

Bantz_Control

Fe1new4 wrote: »

Not the answer you’re looking for but as someone who has been working as a secretary for almost two years now and still looking for a TC I really dislike how you’re talking down about that sort of work. It’s as boring as you make it, you’ve only been there two weeks and over the past two years I’ve learnt more about procedures/ the practical side of law than I ever did at college, if you do the work you’re given well and enthusiastically they’re much more likely to include you in higher responsibility jobs. I’d say give it time.

But that's the thing. He's not a secretary but a trainee solicitor. He should be given tasks that befit his role, not serve as a temp stand-in for a secretary on maternity leave.

@Lallers96

@Lallers96 - just to give my two cent: There should be a marked difference between you and the support staff. I've worked as a legal executive and from what I've seen, there was always a notable difference between support staff and trainees.

For one, trainees never answered general calls into the practice. They would deal with a client once it was passed from reception, but that's it. They wouldn't be manning the phones.

Things like preparing briefs, which can seem admin in nature, are an important skills for a trainee. Particularly, what documents go into one and what has to be kept out.

You will probably do some photocopying also - it is what it is.

Are you attending meetings with the solicitors when a client is in? Are you part of phone calls with clients? Are you going to court (if they do court related work)? If they do conveyancing, have you been given title to read? Contracts to draft? Requisitions? Pre-contract enquiries? PRAI stuff? Stamp duty? If they draft wills, have you had the opportunity to do this?

Look at their practice areas and make a list of the things you want them to be showing you. Have a chat with them at that stage.

Honestly, they sound a bit dubious though. Arguably, they would have had to pay a secretary more than what they might be paying you as a trainee. So they may well be using you for now until PPC actually starts. You're doing the Hybrid, ya? Their attitude might be to do this until yer one is back from mat leave. Now, I could be wrong.

Do have a chat with them and see how things go.

If you feel like you won't get a decent training contract with them, I'd be keeping an eye out for a contract elsewhere. I know they are very hard to come by at the moment, I'm looking myself. But I really want to get a halfway decent one, I don't want to end up with a crap one.

neon123

It sounds frustrating but It’ll be worth it if you can hang tight. At least you got into a firm with a TC so putting up with a bit of grunt work at the beginning doesn’t sound to bad to me. They could well be using you for cheap labor at the moment but once the secretary is back from maternity leave I’d say they will start giving you proper work.

Lallers96

Fe1new4 wrote: »

Not the answer you’re looking for but as someone who has been working as a secretary for almost two years now and still looking for a TC I really dislike how you’re talking down about that sort of work. It’s as boring as you make it, you’ve only been there two weeks and over the past two years I’ve learnt more about procedures/ the practical side of law than I ever did at college, if you do the work you’re given well and enthusiastically they’re much more likely to include you in higher responsibility jobs. I’d say give it time.

I have honestly been the model professional so far. I've been so kind to everyone, I get along with all staff, I do everything I'm asked to do and when I have it done quickly they are amazed at how fast I'm learning the basics. I'm more shocked at how they're shocked to be honest because all I'm doing it basic, basic stuff. You would think that given the various tasks I've been given and clearly are too easy, that they'd give me more to do. But no. I'm left with all the easy stuff done before it's even 12 and then all day I'm staring at the clock.

That's not the job of a trainee solicitor, and I'm learning nothing about the job itself. I'm doing plenty of learning of how to be a secretary on minimum wage though and that's not what a trainee solicitor is.

Fair enough it's my first two weeks but the work clearly isn't challenging at all and that's a waste of everyone's time isn't it

Lallers96

neon123 wrote: »

It sounds frustrating but It’ll be worth it if you can hang tight. At least you got into a firm with a TC so putting up with a bit of grunt work at the beginning doesn’t sound to bad to me. They could well be using you for cheap labor at the moment but once the secretary is back from maternity leave I’d say they will start giving you proper work.

I hope so. Its just a bit of doubt in my mind that I've actually got the TC and I hope they don't just bin me once she comes back. Pure paranoid tbh

Lallers96

able1 wrote: »

@Lallers96 - just to give my two cent: There should be a marked difference between you and the support staff. I've worked as a legal executive and from what I've seen, there was always a notable difference between support staff and trainees.

For one, trainees never answered general calls into the practice. They would deal with a client once it was passed from reception, but that's it. They wouldn't be manning the phones.

Things like preparing briefs, which can seem admin in nature, are an important skills for a trainee. Particularly, what documents go into one and what has to be kept out.

You will probably do some photocopying also - it is what it is.

Are you attending meetings with the solicitors when a client is in? Are you part of phone calls with clients? Are you going to court (if they do court related work)? If they do conveyancing, have you been given title to read? Contracts to draft? Requisitions? Pre-contract enquiries? PRAI stuff? Stamp duty? If they draft wills, have you had the opportunity to do this?

Look at their practice areas and make a list of the things you want them to be showing you. Have a chat with them at that stage.

Honestly, they sound a bit dubious though. Arguably, they would have had to pay a secretary more than what they might be paying you as a trainee. So they may well be using you for now until PPC actually starts. You're doing the Hybrid, ya? Their attitude might be to do this until yer one is back from mat leave. Now, I could be wrong.

Do have a chat with them and see how things go.

If you feel like you won't get a decent training contract with them, I'd be keeping an eye out for a contract elsewhere. I know they are very hard to come by at the moment, I'm looking myself. But I really want to get a halfway decent one, I don't want to end up with a crap one.

Thanks for your detailed response. To give you a better view of things based on what you've said, I am manning the phones and I have yet to sit in on any client meetings, I have yet to go to court with a solicitor, I havent come close to preparing a brief, bar binding the brief haha.

Photocopying and scanning yes, and I understand you'll be doing that loads in any office related position so that makes sense however easy it is to do. I haven't drafted any legal documents yet or anything of the sort. Nearest thing I got was witnessing an already done will and serving summons to someone which wasn't a nice job at all but had to be done.

I agree with you and I will be continuing to look elsewhere in case they are pulling a fast one on me. But beggars can't be choosers either which sucks because I can barely afford the petrol it's costing me to work

bobbyness

Anyone willing to provide any examples of what to include in a cover letter for a trainee position?

I've been applying any hardly getting any responses, so would be probably fair to assume my cover letter isn't up to scratch.

My marketing background I feel is not serving me well in my search for a legal oriented role. Barely getting responses for secretarial and executive legal roles.

Just no idea how I am going to be able to get any experience in a legal background, since all the roles I am applying have it as a requirement? How do I get around this catch 22 situation?

FE1Rookie

Anyone applied to Shields Sadlier here? Wondering what they're like to work for/interview for.

FE1Rookie

Lallers96 wrote: »

Need to go on a bit of a rant before I shoot myself in the foot and say something I shouldn't to my managing partner.

Can someone who has began their TC, or previously done so, please tell me that this is normal. I'm about to finish my 2nd week in office training and I haven't done tap all to do with solicitor related work. All I've done is secretarial work which, I'm sorry, is a ridiculously boring job that I didn't sign up for. I wouldn't mind if I was given stuff to do and I'm constantly chasing every solicitor every day at multiple times in the day to help out but they don't give me much to do, if anything.

I've kept a record of what I've done and it's pathetic what I've learned so far. All I've done is file stuff online and go through a grubby old archive room, finding the odd document a solicitor needs but can't be bothered to look themselves for it. I've been moved around between 2 offices constantly and conveniently it's always to be there when one secretary is off that day. The "main office" that I'm in I'm literally sitting in the same desk as a secretary who's on maternity leave. All I really do is look at a handful of emails that come through, forward them onto the relevant solicitor and answer the occasional phone call if one of the other secretaries can't be bothered to answer it.

Because of how hard a TC is I'm going to just have to stick it out, but my gut is telling me that I'm being completely used by this company and I'm just minimum wage, cheap cover for a secretary that's on maternity and on some days where the 1 secretary in the 2nd office is on their day off. I'm actually scared that I'm being taken for a ride here and the moment the main secretary is back I'll be dumped by them and I'll be left still looking for a TC and have learned nothing.

I know it sounds so uppity but I didn't study law for 6 years to sit at a desk answering calls and reading about 5 emails in the day, praying for 5pm to come quicker. I hate the work I've been given so far, bar the odd odd job I've been given that seems somewhat solicitor related.

Does anyone have any experiences that were similar? Am I actually being taken for granted here, or am I just over thinking things?

That does sound fishy. The main secretary will be back around the time you start the Hybrid so I would be careful they don't just get rid of you before you get to do PPC. You'd be left a year waiting to do PPC again.

It seems like they don't normally take trainees on since they seem to not really give you work to do other than the tasks nobody else wants to do, or picking up the odd jobs off secretaries. Don't let yourself be taken for granted, even though training contracts are rare you don't deserve to be pulled about spending all your earnings on working (petrol etc.)

neon123

FE1Rookie wrote: »

That does sound fishy. The main secretary will be back around the time you start the Hybrid so I would be careful they don't just get rid of you before you get to do PPC. You'd be left a year waiting to do PPC again.

It seems like they don't normally take trainees on since they seem to not really give you work to do other than the tasks nobody else wants to do, or picking up the odd jobs off secretaries. Don't let yourself be taken for granted, even though training contracts are rare you don't deserve to be pulled about spending all your earnings on working (petrol etc.)

Surely there are easier ways to get temp cover rather than going through the motions of creating a fake TC? Also, if the worst case scenario did come to fruition then the firm would probably receive severe rebuke from the LS and risk damaging their reputation?

Bantz_Control

neon123 wrote: »

Also, if the worst case scenario did come to fruition then the firm would probably receive severe rebuke from the LS?

I doubt it.

FE1Hopefully1

bobbyness wrote: »

Anyone willing to provide any examples of what to include in a cover letter for a trainee position?

I've been applying any hardly getting any responses, so would be probably fair to assume my cover letter isn't up to scratch.

My marketing background I feel is not serving me well in my search for a legal oriented role. Barely getting responses for secretarial and executive legal roles.

Just no idea how I am going to be able to get any experience in a legal background, since all the roles I am applying have it as a requirement? How do I get around this catch 22 situation?

In my cover letter I have my previous work and why it would help me in the training contract and I also have that I went abroad on a college trip to visit some of the biggest London firms and the fact that I did an advocacy and mooting module.

My cover letter isn’t the best tbh hahah …. My advice would be to maybe apply for more internship based roles rather than legal executive because a firm looking for a legal exec needs the person to have some experience or if you see more junior legal exec roles apply for them!

Reach out to any firms on your area and just ask to see if you could get some experience for even a week or two … they may then know of someone and pass you along to them to work with and then you have that experience and make some connections and some work to put on your cv ! That’s how it worked for me anyway but I know it’s really not that easy especially now but don’t give up !

FE1Rookie

neon123 wrote: »

Surely there are easier ways to get temp cover rather than going through the motions of creating a fake TC? Also, if the worst case scenario did come to fruition then the firm would probably receive severe rebuke from the LS and risk damaging their reputation?

Well it's a way to get someone on 10.20 an hour to do the job of someone who's paid a lot more, on foot of a promise of proper training to become a solicitor which he hasn't gotten so far. Obviously this is a worst case scenario and a very glass half empty view of things but it's a dog eat dog world out there and I think he should watch out for himself in case of the worst happening.

No firm has to keep you on for 2 years once they sign the indentures. I've seen firms really **** over trainees before and heard of people ending up desperately needing the last few months of the 24 months and having to clamor for another firm to take over their indentures because they were left to the wayside by the first firm.

And I don't think the LS would do anything about it tbh.