Law Firm Milkrounds 20/21

Lallers96

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

You sound like you have very little legal experience. Do you know how billing works?

It's normally broken down into partners, senior associates/consultants, associates, trainee/legal exec, etc. They each have a role to play when it comes to billable work.

Trainee jobs would include research, drafting memos, attending webinars, etc. Also in normal times, running to court, printing, photocopying, etc.

Also, Eversheds kept on like 4/20 of their trainees this year so it works both ways, don't be a sucker.

Well I'm only going off what I've been told directly from hiring partners and principal solicitors.

Yes from a trainees point of view they will want to go elsewhere once they are qualified in most cases, that is obvious. You're not actually listening to what I've said. From the solicitors point of view they are pouring in vast amounts of money and time into you. A law firm is a business and the aim is profit. They do not profit from a trainee. You hardly think printing and photocopying contributes any tangible profit to a business. Real profit is by bringing in new clients, which a trainee does not do to the degree that a solicitor who has PQE does. In the long run a solicitor will want to see a return on their investment over the TC, and this is more so important in small firms. Anyway I've stated the obvious multiple times now and I'm bored of debating how a law firm makes money. I'll keep my info to myself in future and I might come back when I have enough legal experience to be able to share an opinion or share what I've heard from people who've spent decades earning a good living off this job.

LawBoy2018

Lallers96 wrote: »

Well I'm only going off what I've been told directly from hiring partners and principal solicitors.

Yes from a trainees point of view they will want to go elsewhere once they are qualified in most cases, that is obvious. You're not actually listening to what I've said. From the solicitors point of view they are pouring in vast amounts of money and time into you. A law firm is a business and the aim is profit. They do not profit from a trainee. You hardly think printing and photocopying contributes any tangible profit to a business. Real profit is by bringing in new clients, which a trainee does not do to the degree that a solicitor who has PQE does. In the long run a solicitor will want to see a return on their investment over the TC, and this is more so important in small firms. Anyway I've stated the obvious multiple times now and I'm bored of debating how a law firm makes money. I'll keep my info to myself in future and I might come back when I have enough legal experience to be able to share an opinion or share what I've heard from people who've spent decades earning a good living off this job.

It's not a debate, you simply don't understand the role of a trainee in a firm.

LawBoy2018

ciarocxcc wrote: »

How long is a typical seat in a TC? And is it likely you’d be back in the same department at another point in the contract? I know this depends on firm size and opportunities for secondment etc but I was under the impression the law society require your TC to be as varied as possible re: different areas of specialization. How do you gauge which area you eventually qualify into?

Some firms don't give trainees the choice unfortunately. In my firm, trainees apply to the department they want to qualify into and then the head will either accept/reject their application.

If a trainee isn't offered an associate position in their preferred department, they would normally apply to the other departments they worked in during their traineeship. If you don't get an offer, you're gone AFAIK.

Fe1user5555

FE1Hopefully1 wrote: »

Think the hybrid is combined but the traditional PPC1 and PPC2 are still separate courses you do PPC1 and then 11 months in office and then onto PPC2


Breakdown of training contract

In-office training post-PPC I
11 months
Attendance on PPC II
3 months
In-office training post-PPC II *
10 months*
Total
24 months
* Post PPC II training may be reduced by up to 4 months for time spent in the office pre PPC I

I think PPC1 and PPC2 have been amalgamated by the law society! For 2022 anyway I was told I’d be doing both consecutively rather than returning to the office in between

Diamond_Hands

Fe1user5555 wrote: »

I think PPC1 and PPC2 have been amalgamated by the law society! For 2022 anyway I was told I’d be doing both consecutively rather than returning to the office in between

But will the time required to qualify be the same?

Diamond_Hands

Does anyone remember when the Sinn Féin TD amended the official languages Bill a few months back to reintroduce Irish language requirements for trainee solicitors? Does anyone have an update on that!

FE1Hopefully1

Fe1user5555 wrote: »

I think PPC1 and PPC2 have been amalgamated by the law society! For 2022 anyway I was told I’d be doing both consecutively rather than returning to the office in between

Oh I did not hear that at all ! They should really update the website and inform people haha

student2019

Hi, just saw the above re retention rates. That seems like extremely low retention rates. May I ask how do you know?

law987

I'd agree with Lawboy re trainees, especially in the smaller firms that are only paying 19k, that is incredibly cheap labour, to do valuable work, not only admin tasks, but billable work also. Clients have the option to confirm they don't mind parts of the work being carried out by trainees and legal execs, in return for a lower cost. This means associates and partners can focus on the bigger cases.

I'm also shocked at Eversheds only retaining 4 out of 20 trainees? Is that a common theme this year?

aideenc18

Morning guys.

Just FYI, the Law Society confirmed yday that they’re accepting applications for PPC1 2021. Application pack is on their website.

Just a heads up!

the baby bull elephant

law987 wrote: »

I'm also shocked at Eversheds only retaining 4 out of 20 trainees? Is that a common theme this year?

Hayes apparently kept all of their trainees last year. Seems very dependant on the firm.

awsah

aideenc18 wrote: »

Morning guys.

Just FYI, the Law Society confirmed yday that they’re accepting applications for PPC1 2021. Application pack is on their website.

Just a heads up!

Why would they not update the website with this information! It's a joke really!

LawBoy2018

law987 wrote: »

I'd agree with Lawboy re trainees, especially in the smaller firms that are only paying 19k, that is incredibly cheap labour, to do valuable work, not only admin tasks, but billable work also. Clients have the option to confirm they don't mind parts of the work being carried out by trainees and legal execs, in return for a lower cost. This means associates and partners can focus on the bigger cases.

I'm also shocked at Eversheds only retaining 4 out of 20 trainees? Is that a common theme this year?

Finally, someone gets it. In my firm, one trainee billable hour = €220. Obviously it would be less in a small office, but you get the picture.

RedMickeyMouse

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Finally, someone gets it. In my firm, one trainee billable hour = €220. Obviously it would be less in a small office, but you get the picture.

You aren’t wrong, but I’ve worked in a lot of firms (large and small) and have seen first-hand that trainee hours are first to get wiped from the bill as it grows. Trainees have a role in law firms but be careful not to overstate/overrate it.

LawBoy2018

RedMickeyMouse wrote: »

You aren’t wrong, but I’ve worked in a lot of firms (large and small) and have seen first-hand that trainee hours are first to get wiped from the bill as it grows. Trainees have a role in law firms but be careful not to overstate/overrate it.

The work still needs to be done though in the first place, i.e. the role of a trainee. I was simply replying to the above poster who mistakenly was of the view that trainees are essentially a dreg to the firm.

tippertruck

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Finally, someone gets it. In my firm, one trainee billable hour = €220. Obviously it would be less in a small office, but you get the picture.

At a firm I was in before as an intern, I worked on a letter for a client for circa 20 minutes. Gave it to a solicitor who looked at it with me for about 5 minutes and made very slight changes. It cost the client €150. Trainees are certainly valuable to law firms. The idea that they are useless and that firms are doing them a favour is completely wrong. Take all the trainees out of the firm and they would have to hire legal execs, Solicitors, at higher pay.

law987

As an intern, I filled out a certain contract using a template, took maybe an hour, partner looked over it with me, made some changes, cost the client (a bank) over 1,200. Obviously the partner had some email correspondence with them too, but it just shows that interns and trainees are capable of doing useful work, and only have to be paid minimum wage

Diamond_Hands

Slightly off topic, but if an average trainee at one of the big firms is billing around 200 euros an hour, how much would a typical associate/partner/equity partner pull in?

There was an article a few years back where a UK company scrunched the numbers and said Arthur Cox's profits per equity partner is between 1 to 1.5 million a year which seemed insanely high.

law987

400-500 an hour I believe

Wonderstruck

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

The system is broken. People should be able to attend Blackhall without a training contract. A system like NY would be better, where you pass the bar exam and you automatically become an attorney.

It would deleverage the parasitic legal practices offering graduates a measly 19K salary in return for access to their career of choice.

Agreed, a friend told me she was on 19k and I was shocked.

I understand the need for workplace training before qualification, but it isn't supposed to be an internship, not to mention if you already have years of experience and you're taking a paycut to 19k. Rough.

I think the poster in the UK should look into the SQE though, if I wasn't training already I'd give it a lot of consideration. It looks like a great route, it isn't too different from the Irish method but the ability to pick up the experience across a few offices very flexibly sounds good, and you'd come back to Ireland qualified and you could mark a start on it very quickly and you've only 2 fe1s, could take you years to finish them too.

FE1new

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but if an average trainee at one of the big firms is billing around 200 euros an hour, how much would a typical associate/partner/equity partner pull in?

There was an article a few years back where a UK company scrunched the numbers and said Arthur Cox's profits per equity partner is between 1 to 1.5 million a year which seemed insanely high.

From what I heard in the big firms:

Partner 600+
Senior Associates 420-480 (4-6 yrs PQE)
Junior Associates 350-400 (2-3 yrs PQE)
Solicitor 275(1 yr)
NQ 250
Trainee 200

And the rates for Tax are higher from NQ up.

FE1Hopefully1

Wonderstruck wrote: »

Agreed, a friend told me she was on 19k and I was shocked.

I understand the need for workplace training before qualification, but it isn't supposed to be an internship, not to mention if you already have years of experience and you're taking a paycut to 19k. Rough.

I think the poster in the UK should look into the SQE though, if I wasn't training already I'd give it a lot of consideration. It looks like a great route, it isn't too different from the Irish method but the ability to pick up the experience across a few offices very flexibly sounds good, and you'd come back to Ireland qualified and you could mark a start on it very quickly and you've only 2 fe1s, could take you years to finish them too.

Yeah pay in small firms even in Dublin is bad I’m currently on 20,500 which is ****e have to commute because I couldn’t afford to live in Dublin

Diamond_Hands

FE1Hopefully1 wrote: »

Yeah pay in small firms even in Dublin is bad I’m currently on 20,500 which is ****e have to commute because I couldn’t afford to live in Dublin

Is it even worth it if the pay is that low?

FE1Hopefully1

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

Is it even worth it if the pay is that low?

It’s a training contract so yeah worth it for me because I’m in Dublin and can commute but wouldn’t be for everyone also I’m not going to find much better at the moment haha and I do really like the place so I’m willing to compromise for now


Have been told pay will be reviewed after 6 months so fingers crossed haha

Average trainee salary when you look it up is around €27000 I’d be happy with that for a short period of time

LawBoy2018

FE1Hopefully1 wrote: »

It’s a training contract so yeah worth it for me because I’m in Dublin and can commute but wouldn’t be for everyone also I’m not going to find much better at the moment haha and I do really like the place so I’m willing to compromise for now


Have been told pay will be reviewed after 6 months so fingers crossed haha

Average trainee salary when you look it up is around €27000 I’d be happy with that for a short period of time

This really annoys me. Hope you get a great offer from somewhere decent once you qualify!

Oisin_FE12021

From what I gather from this thread, your leaving cert/degree grades are very important to the larger firms when deciding who gets a training contract - do they also take into consideration your FE1 grades? Or do they only care that you passed all 8?

Aisbash

My firm haven't even asked what I scored in the FE-1s. They were only considered with whether I had them passed before my start date.

Diamond_Hands

Oisin_FE12021 wrote: »

From what I gather from this thread, your leaving cert/degree grades are very important to the larger firms when deciding who gets a training contract - do they also take into consideration your FE1 grades? Or do they only care that you passed all 8?

Fe1 grades are completely irrelevant. All that matters is you passed. The exception being if you did so well you got an award for it, which would give you some benefit.

lawgrad49

Hey guys, wondering does anyone have any insight on how the big firms usually run their yearly milkrounds? I.e how many places do they set aside through the milkrounds, what's the process etc. Or can anyone on here let me know if they got a TC offer in a Big firm not through an internship?

I know a few people in Big 5/Top 10 who are current trainees or recent NQ's but all of them got their traineeships off the back of an internship- i.e did their 3 mth summer internship and got their TC offer for 2 years in advance (they went away, finished the FE1's did a bit of travelling etc and landed back 2 years later ready to start)

I'm currently working in professional services (Not legal but FS related) and I ideally don't want to give up a full-time job for an internship or temporary Paralegal job just to get a foot through the door... if I could secure a TC by a regular interview.

I know milkrounds were up in the air with Covid last year but just trying to get an idea of how they usually work! Spoke to a recruiter last week for some advice but she said they don't do trainee recruitment and didn't even know much about the milkround procedure as the Firms handle it themselves and don't give too much info away.

Diamond_Hands

lawgrad49 wrote: »

Hey guys, wondering does anyone have any insight on how the big firms usually run their yearly milkrounds? I.e how many places do they set aside through the milkrounds, what's the process etc. Or can anyone on here let me know if they got a TC offer in a Big firm not through an internship?

I know a few people in Big 5/Top 10 who are current trainees or recent NQ's but all of them got their traineeships off the back of an internship- i.e did their 3 mth summer internship and got their TC offer for 2 years in advance (they went away, finished the FE1's did a bit of travelling etc and landed back 2 years later ready to start)

I'm currently working in professional services (Not legal but FS related) and I ideally don't want to give up a full-time job for an internship or temporary Paralegal job just to get a foot through the door... if I could secure a TC by a regular interview.

I know milkrounds were up in the air with Covid last year but just trying to get an idea of how they usually work! Spoke to a recruiter last week for some advice but she said they don't do trainee recruitment and didn't even know much about the milkround procedure as the Firms handle it themselves and don't give too much info away.

I got a TC offer from a big 5 not through an internship, I applied during Milkrounds in my final year of college. They usually get circa 1k applicants with around 30 places at the place I applied. It differs based on the firm. The application process is usually around the same as summer internships but there is usually multiple interviews. Apart from that, the process is usually the same.