Law Firm Milkrounds 20/21

awsah

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

The system is broken. People should be able to attend Blackhall without a training contract. A system like NY would be better, where you pass the bar exam and you automatically become an attorney.

It would deleverage the parasitic legal practices offering graduates a measly 19K salary in return for access to their career of choice.

In NY you need an undergraduate degree, then you take the LSAT exam which is tough, then you do your JD which takes 3 years full time college which can cost you from 15,000 (community college) to like 70,000 (more prestigious college and even more expensive for the top colleges) PER YEAR then after all of that you need to take the Bar exam to be qualified in New York State.

LawBoy2018

awsah wrote: »

In NY you need an undergraduate degree, then you take the LSAT exam which is tough, then you do your JD which takes 3 years full time college which can cost you from 15,000 (community college) to like 70,000 (more prestigious college and even more expensive for the top colleges) PER YEAR then after all of that you need to take the Bar exam to be qualified in New York State.

Yes, and in Ireland, Blackhall is essentially one's 'JD', if we're comparing apples & oranges.

Diamond_Hands

neon123 wrote: »

Are the the big firms in Ireland very picky when it comes to LC points ? I got 415 points , but I also got a first in my degree from DCU and an upper 2.1 in my LLM from Trinity, with a first in my dissertation. I have a few years of office work experience with some of it partially being legal related and I’m currently volunteering at the moment with the solicitor at my current role to gain some current experience. I have applied to the big firms before but I’ve got my fair share of PFO’s and have only interviewed twice which obviously didn’t lead anywhere. I didn’t have any FE1s done when I last interviewed but I’m now waiting for the results of my last 2. I’m now 29 so I’m a bit worried my chances are getting smaller by the year so would appreciate hearing from people who have experience dealing with the major firms.

Some firms are more picky than others about grades. I don't have an amazing LC (low 500s) and I got a TC offer from a big 5 firm while in college. The fact that you're older and more experienced means your LC results matter less.

Have you done anything interesting since the last time you've applied? If you haven't, the same firms will give you the PFO again for the same reasons they did last time.

awsah

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Yes, and in Ireland, Blackhall is essentially one's 'JD', if we're comparing apples & oranges.

I was replying to the message that said u just sit the bar exam and then your an attorney and that is just not the truth, its easier and cheaper to qualify here

LawBoy2018

awsah wrote: »

I was replying to the message that said u just sit the bar exam and then your an attorney and that is just not the truth, its easier and cheaper to qualify here

That's not what I said lol. I was comparing the systems, i.e. being able to become an attorney without a 'training contract'.

bigchungus

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

Some firms are more picky than others about grades. I don't have an amazing LC (low 500s) and I got a TC offer from a big 5 firm while in college. The fact that you're older and more experienced means your LC results matter less.

Have you done anything interesting since the last time you've applied? If you haven't, the same firms will give you the PFO again for the same reasons they did last time.

I think low 500s would be considered an excellent LC

bigchungus

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

Where do you plan on training? If its at the top firms, every aspect of your application will be under scrutiny - from your college/LC grades to your experiences after you graduated. You'll have to think every carefully if your application is strong enough for firms that receive 1k applicants for 30 odd places, where so many applicants have shining CV and have graduated at the top. Applying to the big firms is costly and time consuming, and a lot of naive grads with relatively mediocre applications apply and have their minds broken when the inevitable slew of PFOs come. If you think you have the capacity for it, best of luck. Otherwise, you might consider the UK just because there are so many medium size firms located there, you're bound to get more lucky eventually.

Honestly I wouldn't mind a smaller or mid-sized firm, I would ideally like to get into immigration/family/criminal law eventually. Obviously there are very few niche firms in those areas hiring trainees, so I would be happy out anywhere training tbh. Thanks for your reply, it's definitely helpful in trying to decide such a big decision

Diamond_Hands

bigchungus wrote: »

Honestly I wouldn't mind a smaller or mid-sized firm, I would ideally like to get into immigration/family/criminal law eventually. Obviously there are very few niche firms in those areas hiring trainees, so I would be happy out anywhere training tbh. Thanks for your reply, it's definitely helpful in trying to decide such a big decision

If you're planning on immigration/family/criminal, I wouldn't be too concerned about college or LC.

Most of these firms care about your practical experience and what you've done so far. I would say get some experience in the meantime before you apply and you should be good.

neon123

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

Some firms are more picky than others about grades. I don't have an amazing LC (low 500s) and I got a TC offer from a big 5 firm while in college. The fact that you're older and more experienced means your LC results matter less.

Have you done anything interesting since the last time you've applied? If you haven't, the same firms will give you the PFO again for the same reasons they did last time.

In terms of interesting would FE1s and some voluntary legal experience fit the bill in this regard? Also just out of curiosity as you’re in this situation, how do people manage to get TC's while in college? I've read plenty of people on here who have completed their degrees and masters with excellent results, all FE1s under their belt, and legal work experience, but don't seem to get anywhere with the big firms even though at face value they seem to tick all the boxes. I would have thought people like this are safer bets than those who haven't even finished their degree. I'm not trying to disparage anyone here, just trying to get a better insight as to what these firms are looking for. I guess a person can have everything going for them on paper but have difficulty selling themselves both on the online application and interview.

Lallers96

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

I commend those of you willing to move to Cavan (f that) to get a traineeship. It's v tough out there at the minute but you'll get something once things go back to normal.

Law firms definitely have the upper hand right now but focus on yourselves, get some experience (unpaid if necessary), up-skill, etc. and you'll get there.

If a gammy little solicitor's office is offering you an 18K salary, is it really worth it? Surely you'd be better off doing something else for the time being until there are more traineeships available.

18K is highway robbery. There are people in the non-skilled workforce with no qualification earning more than that. That works out at a measly €8.65 an hour. You wouldn't work in McDonalds for that.

I personally have zero intention wasting my own time applying to Cavan. All it takes is one person who lives closer to me to get it over me, plus Cavan (no offence) is not a nice or busy location.

Diamond_Hands

neon123 wrote: »

In terms of interesting would FE1s and some voluntary legal experience fit the bill in this regard? Also just out of curiosity as your in this situation, how do people manage to get TC's while in college? I've read plenty of people on here who have completed their degrees and masters with excellent results, all FE1s under their belt, and legal work experience, but don't seem to get anywhere with the big firms even though at face value they seem to tick all the boxes. I would have thought people like this are safer bets than those who haven't even finished their degree. I'm not trying to disparage anyone here, just trying to get a better insight as to what these firms are looking for. I guess a person can have everything going for them on paper but have difficulty selling themselves both on the online application and interview.

Yeah defo I think voluntary experience gives you a shot if you can tie those skills in with working in a legal environment. I spent half my TC interview talking about this one volunteering opportunity I was doing in college. It worked out well!

So a lot of the firms give TCs to their summer interns. It's a safe bet as the firm gets to know the interns over 4 weeks and they can be confident in their choice. As a lot - but not all - summer interns are still in college, a lot of students get TC offers in their 3rd or 4th year.

On the other hand, it's mainly graduates that get offers during Milkrounds. It's just a super competitive process and really talented people don't get chances oftentimes out of sheer luck. You just have to learn to not take it personally.

The application can only get you so far really. You could have the greatest application in the world but if the partners don't like you, you aren't getting an offer

Lallers96

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

The system is broken. People should be able to attend Blackhall without a training contract. A system like NY would be better, where you pass the bar exam and you automatically become an attorney.

It would deleverage the parasitic legal practices offering graduates a measly 19K salary in return for access to their career of choice.

Well, I know of someone who got a solicitor "to sign him off" so he can start PPC 1 and enter Blackhall Place, despite the solicitor having zero intention of taking this person on when March 2022 comes around and this person has to begin their 24 months training.

I personally thought that was dodgy as sin as the solicitor is lying by saying they will take this person on. At the end of the day this person will still have to find an actual TC, but they have circumvented the requirement to secure it first before beginning PPC 1.

neon123

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

Yeah defo I think voluntary experience gives you a shot if you can tie those skills in with working in a legal environment. I spent half my TC interview talking about this one volunteering opportunity I was doing in college. It worked out well!

So a lot of the firms give TCs to their summer interns. It's a safe bet as the firm gets to know the interns over 4 weeks and they can be confident in their choice. As a lot - but not all - summer interns are still in college, a lot of students get TC offers in their 3rd or 4th year.

On the other hand, it's mainly graduates that get offers during Milkrounds. It's just a super competitive process and really talented people don't get chances oftentimes out of sheer luck. You just have to learn to not take it personally.

Glad to see doing voluntary work actually does pay dividends! I’m just going to market the hell out of it when the milk rounds come up and hope for the best. I guess there’s so easy answer as to why some people succeed and some don’t, at the end of the the day it’s all about mental fortitude and not letting set backs get us down.

neon123

Lallers96 wrote: »

Well, I know of someone who got a solicitor "to sign him off" so he can start PPC 1 and enter Blackhall Place, despite the solicitor having zero intention of taking this person on when March 2022 comes around and this person has to begin their 24 months training.

I personally thought that was dodgy as sin as the solicitor is lying by saying they will take this person on. At the end of the day this person will still have to find an actual TC, but they have circumvented the requirement to secure it first before beginning PPC 1.

What’s the point of getting the PPC 1 done if they can’t find a legitimate TC on time?

LawBoy2018

Lallers96 wrote: »

Well, I know of someone who got a solicitor "to sign him off" so he can start PPC 1 and enter Blackhall Place, despite the solicitor having zero intention of taking this person on when March 2022 comes around and this person has to begin their 24 months training.

I personally thought that was dodgy as sin as the solicitor is lying by saying they will take this person on. At the end of the day this person will still have to find an actual TC, but they have circumvented the requirement to secure it first before beginning PPC 1.

Really? Did the solicitor pay their fees? Trainees can switch firms now during their traineeship per the new rules brought in back in 2019/2020. Provided they find another firm to take them on, I don't see an issue.

Lallers96

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Really? Did the solicitor pay their fees? Trainees can switch firms now during their traineeship per the new rules brought in back in 2019/2020. Provided they find another firm to take them on, I don't see an issue.

No they won't be paying them. Most firms won't from what I've heard. This solicitor is just signing their name to say they will take this person on just so they can begin PPC 1 and then presumably they will try to find a TC before PPC ends. Essentially buying themselves time. I assume this solcitior is a family friend as it seems underhanded to me. I understand people can change firms but this is highly frowned upon by solicitors as they are investing both a huge amount of time, effort, and money into training someone who they do not gain anything from until they are fully qualified. Solicitors only reap the rewards for training someone a few years PQE. So if you leave for another firm, you can do it, but it's highly frowned upon as that solicitor has just wasted their time.

I've heard of one partner who told me this had happened to him and he was badly burned by this experience and it was so bad that it clouded his judgement of trainees who he suspected would, or might, leave mid way.

Lallers96

neon123 wrote: »

What’s the point of getting the PPC 1 done if they can’t find a legitimate TC on time?

Well I heard this through the grapevine and personally agree with you that it's a bad move. I can see a small benefit that this person is buying themselves some time for TC roles to pick up next year after both offices and the courts open again. But as you say if he cannot find a TC by the end of PPC 1 they are fecked.

LawBoy2018

Lallers96 wrote: »

No they won't be paying them. Most firms won't from what I've heard. This solicitor is just signing their name to say they will take this person on just so they can begin PPC 1 and then presumably they will try to find a TC before PPC ends. Essentially buying themselves time. I assume this solcitior is a family friend as it seems underhanded to me. I understand people can change firms but this is highly frowned upon by solicitors as they are investing both a huge amount of time, effort, and money into training someone who they do not gain anything from until they are fully qualified. Solicitors only reap the rewards for training someone a few years PQE. So if you leave for another firm, you can do it, but it's highly frowned upon as that solicitor has just wasted their time.

I've heard of one partner who told me this had happened to him and he was badly burned by this experience and it was so bad that it clouded his judgement of trainees who he suspected would, or might, leave mid way.

People will do what suits them, it's not personal. If I was in a small firm and felt that I wasn't getting the experience I needed to succeed in my career, I would be gone in a heartbeat.

Trainees are cheap labour, solicitors 'reap the rewards' of their efforts from the day they step foot in the office.

LawBoy2018

Lallers96 wrote: »

Well I heard this through the grapevine and personally agree with you that it's a bad move. I can see a small benefit that this person is buying themselves some time for TC roles to pick up next year after both offices and the courts open again. But as you say if he cannot find a TC by the end of PPC 1 they are fecked.

Are PPC1 & PPC2 not combined now? All they need is some in office experience and they'll be able to qualify.

Lallers96

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

Are PPC1 & PPC2 not combined now? All they need is some in office experience and they'll be able to qualify.

I hadn't heard that PPC had become one course. I thought you do PPC 1 and then 24 months and then go back to do PPC 2.

FE1Hopefully1

Lallers96 wrote: »

I hadn't heard that PPC had become one course. I thought you do PPC 1 and then 24 months and then go back to do PPC 2.

Think the hybrid is combined but the traditional PPC1 and PPC2 are still separate courses you do PPC1 and then 11 months in office and then onto PPC2


Breakdown of training contract

In-office training post-PPC I
11 months
Attendance on PPC II
3 months
In-office training post-PPC II *
10 months*
Total
24 months
* Post PPC II training may be reduced by up to 4 months for time spent in the office pre PPC I

Lallers96

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

People will do what suits them, it's not personal. If I was in a small firm and felt that I wasn't getting the experience I needed to succeed in my career, I would be gone in a heartbeat.

Trainees are cheap labour, solicitors 'reap the rewards' of their efforts from the day they step foot in the office.

Well, no Solicitors gain nothing from a Trainee really. You're paying someone to learn from you. A Trainee won't be bringing in any business, any new clients. At the end of the day it's a business and a trainee adds little value to a firm until they are qualified and can be trusted to carry out the duties of a solicitor without constant supervision and training. Obviously over time you will be able to take some work off a solicitors hands when you're training but other than that I don't see how a partner makes any money off a trainee. As I said it's just a business like any other and you want to make a profit off hiring someone. A firm won't just want you to train there for the minimum time and then leave. They'll want you to stay on afterwards

neon123

Lallers96 wrote: »

Well, no Solicitors gain nothing from a Trainee really. You're paying someone to learn from you. A Trainee won't be bringing in any business, any new clients. At the end of the day it's a business and a trainee adds little value to a firm until they are qualified and can be trusted to carry out the duties of a solicitor without constant supervision and training. Obviously over time you will be able to take some work off a solicitors hands when you're training but other than that I don't see how a partner makes any money off a trainee. As I said it's just a business like any other and you want to make a profit off hiring someone. A firm won't just want you to train there for the minimum time and then leave. They'll want you to stay on afterwards

I thought it’s common practice to leave a firm once you qualify or a bit after as most NQs don’t like to be permanently viewed as the “Trainee” within their training firm. I’ve also heard it’s common not to be keep a trainee on once they qualify as it’s too expensive for a lot of firms and instead it makes more commercial sense to just keep going through the endless supply of trainees they can pay little to. This is what I’ve been told anyway because the costs associated with keeping on a NQ are considerably higher than a trainee, and even though you can do the job well and get along with the people in the firm the cost of keeping you on will go against you at the end of the day. All this however might just be applicable to smaller firms as the medium and larger firms wouldn’t be as sensitive to the higher costs.

LawBoy2018

Lallers96 wrote: »

Well, no Solicitors gain nothing from a Trainee really. You're paying someone to learn from you. A Trainee won't be bringing in any business, any new clients. At the end of the day it's a business and a trainee adds little value to a firm until they are qualified and can be trusted to carry out the duties of a solicitor without constant supervision and training. Obviously over time you will be able to take some work off a solicitors hands when you're training but other than that I don't see how a partner makes any money off a trainee. As I said it's just a business like any other and you want to make a profit off hiring someone. A firm won't just want you to train there for the minimum time and then leave. They'll want you to stay on afterwards

You sound like you have very little legal experience. Do you know how billing works?

It's normally broken down into partners, senior associates/consultants, associates, trainee/legal exec, etc. They each have a role to play when it comes to billable work.

Trainee jobs would include research, drafting memos, attending webinars, etc. Also in normal times, running to court, printing, photocopying, etc.

Also, Eversheds kept on like 4/20 of their trainees this year so it works both ways, don't be a sucker.

LawBoy2018

neon123 wrote: »

I thought it’s common practice to leave a firm once you qualify or a bit after as most NQs don’t like to be permanently viewed as the “Trainee” within their training firm. I’ve also heard it’s common not to be keep a TC on once they qualify as it’s too expensive for a lot of firms and instead it makes more commercial sense to just keep going through the endless supply of trainees they can pay little to.

You heard correctly! Lol

Diamond_Hands

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

You sound like you have very little legal experience. Do you know how billing works?

It's normally broken down into partners, senior associates/consultants, associates, trainee/legal exec, etc. They each have a role to play when it comes to billable work.

Trainee jobs would include research, drafting memos, attending webinars, etc. Also in normal times, running to court, printing, photocopying, etc.

Also, Eversheds kept on like 4/20 of their trainees this year so it works both ways, don't be a sucker.

No need to be so snide about it. He's not completely wrong anyways. Firms don't invest on expensive training programmes and pay all of the expensive PPC fees when trainees often do grunt administrative tasks for the sake of it. They are looking to have future solicitors through the constant pipeline that will stay with the firm.

On another note, was Eversheds retention that low this year? Dear lord.

LawBoy2018

Diamond_Hands wrote: »

No need to be so snide about it. On another note, was Eversheds retention that low this year? Dear lord.

How was I being snide? It was an unbiased observation based on his previous post.

Yup, retention has been pretty grim this year from what I've heard, my firm included (top 5).

neon123

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

How was I being snide? It was an unbiased observation based on his previous post.

Yup, retention has been pretty grim this year from what I've heard, my firm included (top 5).

Not great to hear, have you heard where people tend to go once they finish up in those firms? Surely if their training firm isn't keeping them on then other firms aren't going to welcome them with open arms either, especially if they trained in niche areas.

LawBoy2018

neon123 wrote: »

Not great to hear, have you heard where people tend to go once they finish up in those firms? Surely if their training firm isn't keeping them on then other firms aren't going to welcome them with open arms either, especially if they trained in niche areas.

Completely depends on supply and demand. If you train in a big firm, you have very little to worry about when it comes to looking for another job. It's more the lack of security that comes with being told that there isn't a vacancy for you in your chosen department.

One guy was interested in politics and I saw that he was hired by a minister back home. Another specialised in asset management, she's gone to work for an aircraft leasing firm. Moral of the story, be careful re which area you qualify into.

ciarocxcc

How long is a typical seat in a TC? And is it likely you’d be back in the same department at another point in the contract? I know this depends on firm size and opportunities for secondment etc but I was under the impression the law society require your TC to be as varied as possible re: different areas of specialization. How do you gauge which area you eventually qualify into?