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Rushed Covid 19 vaccine

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  • Options
    #452
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Jose Substantial Armada wrote: »
    Yes, my error meant under 1m.
    1m from 7bn, is in the grand scheme of things: tiny.

    I suppose it is if you haven't lost someone close to you.


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    #453
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,783 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Jose Substantial Armada wrote: »
    Yes, my error meant under 1m.
    1m from 7bn, is in the grand scheme of things: tiny.

    It's relatively small. And what's your point?

    We should drop the masks and social distancing and all go back to our offices?


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    #454
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I suppose it is if you haven't lost someone close to you.
    You could say the same about e.g. Cancer of which there was x9.6m deaths during 2018, for which treatment services for this year are widely under strain and delay.


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    #455
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Jose Substantial Armada wrote: »
    You could say the same about e.g. Cancer of which there was x9.6m deaths during 2018, for which treatment services for this year are widely under strain and delay.

    Are people saying "keep smoking, sure only a small % are getting lung cancer"?


  • Options
    #456
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Are people saying "keep smoking, sure only a small % are getting lung cancer"?
    Not that am aware of.

    A good question however, did the big cigarette producers claim there was indeed nothing wrong with smoking, and avoid any FDA claims that it was dangerous? Was only decades later and after many medical cases that pressure mounted and they finally admitted it's risks. Money talks.


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    #457
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Jose Substantial Armada wrote: »
    Not that am aware of.

    A good question however, did the big cigarette producers claim there was indeed nothing wrong with smoking, and avoid any FDA claims that it was dangerous? Was only decades later and after many medical cases that pressure mounted and they finally admitted it's risks. Money talks.

    Are the pharmaceutical companies pushing for a rushed vaccine?


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    #458
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Are the pharmaceutical companies pushing for a rushed vaccine?
    Another very good question thanks, quick reply (as heading back into sunshine) would be
    Is the vaccine rushed (yes).
    Do the Pharma companies have (hugely) invested funds in these, while Wuhan and Sweden now party non-stop across bars and nightblubs.


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    #459
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,783 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Jose Substantial Armada wrote: »
    Another very good question thanks, quick reply (as heading back into sunshine) would be
    Is the vaccine rushed (yes).
    Do the Pharma companies have (hugely) invested funds in these, while Wuhan and Sweden now party non-stop across bars and nightblubs.

    Doesn't answer the question. It's amazing.


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    #460
    r439z5ifwt8soq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭r439z5ifwt8soq


    I'm a bit out of the loop with this but are there any vaccines that are being given to the general public in any countries as of yet?

    I think there should certainly be a vaccine available, that would be great. However, it should go through as much rigorous testing as would be expected of any other vaccine.


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    #461
    Thierry12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 979 ✭✭✭Thierry12


    Oxford one in big trouble

    Another case of transverse myelitis it seems

    Thats an extremely rare disease, 1400 cases a year in the US out of 300 million people

    Odds of that appearing twice in a phase 3 trial are astronomical, yet it happened

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/20/human-trials-oxford-vaccine-hold-us-spinal-cord-disease-fears/amp/

    Chinese virologist whos all over the news as a whistle-blower with an interview and mentioning ADE as possible side effects in vaccine, thought it was interesting.

    https://youtu.be/uiYiXZUKBZs


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    #462
    Dionaibh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    Stella Nice Bedpan wrote: »
    I'm a bit out of the loop with this but are there any vaccines that are being given to the general public in any countries as of yet?

    I think there should certainly be a vaccine available, that would be great. However, it should go through as much rigorous testing as would be expected of any other vaccine.

    Russia has begun vaccinating the population, UAE has approved a vaccine from China for emergency use, and China has either begun, or is set to begin, vaccinating the population.


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    #463
    r439z5ifwt8soq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭r439z5ifwt8soq


    Dionaibh wrote: »
    Russia has begun vaccinating the population, UAE has approved a vaccine from China for emergency use, and China has either begun, or is set to begin, vaccinating the population.

    Ouch, well I'm not surprised that those are the countries who pushed it before it was adequately tested.


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    #464
    Dionaibh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    Stella Nice Bedpan wrote: »
    Ouch, well I'm not surprised that those are the countries who pushed it before it was adequately tested.

    The Russian vaccine is, I believe, extremely safe, and I would take it in the morning if I had to.

    An article on the Russian vaccine:

    https://www.rt.com/russia/500087-worlds-first-covid-19-vaccine-questions/ 

    I know it's on rt and that a lot of people don't trust rt, but the article is well worth reading. The author compares the Russian vaccine with the other vaccines in development.


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    #465
    LessOutragePlz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Not vaccinating can harm others.

    As I've previously stated I'd be more afraid of the potential side effects from taking a rushed vaccine than I would be from getting covid.

    And there has already been serious side effects for a person involved in the AstraZeneca vaccine trials.

    So should I put my own health at risk for the health of others?


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    #466
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,783 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    LessOutragePlz wrote: »
    As I've previously stated I'd be more afraid of the potential side effects from taking a rushed vaccine than I would be from getting covid.

    You wrote:
    As I've previously stated they are his/her beliefs and they are perfectly entitled to believe in whatever they want as long as it doesn't cause harm to themselves or anyone else.

    That's simply not correct. Choosing not to take a vaccine can cause harm to others. It's one of the reasons why, for example, infectious diseases like measles are making a comeback.
    And there has already been serious side effects for a person involved in the AstraZeneca vaccine trials.

    As has been explained to you, the reaction during that trial is not out of the ordinary. That happens during normal vaccine development. And like normal vaccine development they paused the trial to investigate.

    The fact that you have brought it up several times demonstrates that you are probably developing a conscious bias against a future Covid vaccine. Which is not a good sign.

    Laypeople aren't operating from a stance of knowledge, it's more along the lines of gut instincts, populist sentiment, e.g. "anything that is rushed is automatically more risky, so I won't touch it".

    Since that's the logic you seem to be using, when will you personally decide the Covid vaccine is safe enough for you to use? have you decided to never get it?


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    #467
    FutureTeashock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 439 ✭✭FutureTeashock


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    You wrote:



    That's simply not correct. Choosing not to take a vaccine can cause harm to others. It's one of the reasons why, for example, infectious diseases like measles are making a comeback.



    As has been explained to you, the reaction during that trial is not out of the ordinary. That happens during normal vaccine development. And like normal vaccine development they paused the trial to investigate.

    The fact that you have brought it up several times demonstrates that you are probably developing a conscious bias against a future Covid vaccine. Which is not a good sign.

    Laypeople aren't operating from a stance of knowledge, it's more along the lines of gut instincts, populist sentiment, e.g. "anything that is rushed is automatically more risky, so I won't touch it".

    Since that's the logic you seem to be using, when will you personally decide the Covid vaccine is safe enough for you to use? have you decided to never get it?

    It's none of your business if he chooses to take the vaccine or not.


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    #468
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Thierry12 wrote: »
    Oxford one in big trouble
    Another case of transverse myelitis it seems

    Thats an extremely rare disease, 1400 cases a year in the US out of 300 million people

    Odds of that appearing twice in a phase 3 trial are astronomical, yet it happened
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/20/human-trials-oxford-vaccine-hold-us-spinal-cord-disease-fears/amp/

    Chinese virologist whos all over the news as a whistle-blower with an interview and mentioning ADE as possible side effects in vaccine, thought it was interesting.

    https://youtu.be/uiYiXZUKBZs
    Didn't realise there was 2 cases of this possible same side-effect in a small-ish, single product, vaccine P3 trial.

    That would explain the caution to rush this any faster than it is.

    There appears to be some historical relevance for the FDA to consider too.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/20/human-trials-oxford-vaccine-hold-us-spinal-cord-disease-fears/

    Concerns around neurological side-effects are especially sensitive in the US.
    In 1976, an emergency influenza vaccine caused 450 cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome and 30 people died after 45 million people were vaccinated.
    Guillain-Barré syndrome and transverse myelitis are closely related conditions, both causing inflammation of the spinal cord.


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    #469
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,783 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    FutureTeashock wrote: »
    It's none of your business if he chooses to take the vaccine or not.

    I am questioning the logic of it. Some individuals decide they "know more" than large bodies of experts on a subject they know actually know very little about.

    Also if people don't take vaccines, it can put others at risk.


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    #470
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Currently stands at over 960k.

    Not really as less than 100k deaths are recorded where there were not other comorbidities detected. Since there are no autopsies carried out generally there may be some cases where serious comorbidity existed but was not detected prior to death.
    The rest of the 860k died with covid and one or more comorbidities. Mostly more than one.
    One can argue that covid was a catalyst that speeded up their demise. Would they lived longer if no covid? Most certainly yes but hard to say for how long.


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    #471
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Are the pharmaceutical companies pushing for a rushed vaccine?

    Of course, they do. Take their unofficial spokesman B.Gates moaning about how certification and FDA needs not to stand in a way due to our need to get vaccine as soon as possible.
    That man with zero medical education who even did not finish any college even though he is a successful businessman somehow become some expert in all kinds medical simply by investing in pharmaceutical companies.


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    #472
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,783 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Not really

    Yes really.


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    #473
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,783 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Of course, they do. Take their unofficial spokesman B.Gates moaning

    Gates is not their unofficial spokesman. He may provide some funding, but he has little say in the overall production of a vaccine that is going ahead with or without him.


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    #474
    Dionaibh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Gates is not their unofficial spokesman. He may provide some funding, but he has little say in the overall production of a vaccine that is going ahead with or without him.

    He has a lot of influence. He controls WHO and has spoken in interviews of his phone calls with Fauci.


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    #475
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Dionaibh wrote: »
    He has a lot of influence. He controls WHO and has spoken in interviews of his phone calls with Fauci.

    :rolleyes:


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    #476
    Dionaibh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Of course, they do. Take their unofficial spokesman B.Gates moaning about how certification and FDA needs not to stand in a way due to our need to get vaccine as soon as possible.
    That man with zero medical education who even did not finish any college even though he is a successful businessman somehow become some expert in all kinds medical simply by investing in pharmaceutical companies.

    He also lamented the fact that the vaccine would be voluntary in the US, and that Americans' love of freedom was hindering the response to the pandemic.


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    #477
    patnor1011
    Registered Users Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    I am questioning the logic of it. Some individuals decide they "know more" than large bodies of experts on a subject they know actually know very little about.

    Also if people don't take vaccines, it can put others at risk.

    You can not compare vaccines which were developed, tested, used and studied for a long time with current covid vaccines which are still in development and then state if people dont take them it can put others at risk.
    Compkete nonsense.

    You seems to dismiss the fact that there are trials lasting years where participants are monitored for very long time to see if there may be some delayed response or damage. Drugs or vaccines can be declared safe only after number of years pass without signifficant number of complications.


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    #478
    Dionaibh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    By virtue of the fact that he's its top donor


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    #479
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Dionaibh wrote: »
    By virtue of the fact that he's its top donor

    Except he isn't


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    #480
    Dionaibh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 734 ✭✭✭Dionaibh


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Except he isn't

    https://www.devex.com/news/big-concerns-over-gates-foundation-s-potential-to-become-largest-who-donor-97377

    https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2020-05-29/gates-foundation-donations-to-who-nearly-match-those-from-us-government#:~:text=If%20such%20a%20halt%20on,any%20government%20in%20the%20world.


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    #481
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Dionaibh wrote: »
    https://www.devex.com/news/big-concerns-over-gates-foundation-s-potential-to-become-largest-who-donor-97377

    https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2020-05-29/gates-foundation-donations-to-who-nearly-match-those-from-us-government#:~:text=If%20such%20a%20halt%20on,any%20government%20in%20the%20world.

    As per your links he isn't their top donor


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