Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

Captain_Crash

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

Actually no, it was set up on the 3rd of September,

NPHET met on Sunday the 4th October and made the first recommendation to move to Level 5. It Monday 5th of October when the government made the decision not to accept NPHET advice in full, moving the country to Level 3 instead.

I can see facts are important to you, but not if they get in the way of a good story it seems!!

Was it? There was a thread called “Have NPHET lost the dressing room?” Set up the day after the first recommendation after level 5? Was that merged with this one so? I always though it was the same thread with just a name change. Apologies for any confusion

prunudo

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Was it? There was a thread called “Have NPHET lost the dressing room?” Set up the day after the first recommendation after level 5? Was that merged with this one so? I always though it was the same thread with just a name change. Apologies for any confusion

That was my understanding too.

Bass Reeves

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

If L3 was going to drive down the numbers it would have worked in Dublin which had four week of those restriction. The evidence suggest that when Dublin moved to level 3 there was a rapid stabilisation in the virus for about two week and then cases started to increase again. I think its pretty clear the reason why L3 didn't work in Dublin was partly to do with a lack of enforcement but also the amount of virus circulating in the community.

The country may only be in L5 two week now but their is evident that suggest many people have been there since the first NPHET recommendation. Now, maybe it was the shock factor or perhaps it was a timely wake up call but the more virus circulating in the community the less effective each level of restrictions are going to be. So we should be aiming to keep ahead of the virus rather than trying to catch it.

L3 at a county level is hard to police it worked in Kildare, Laois and Offaly. The reason it did not work in Dublin was no enforcement. People who still did not need to were travelling to Dublin for work and shopping. Some employers in Dublin was still unwilling to all employees who could to work from home.

You had the on street booze ups in Temple bar and elsewhere. You had people living in Dublin still coming home weekends. A nation wide L3 enforced is totally different to a county based one. In the border counties you still had cross border movent. As well you had the issue with return to college parties

Even with L5 all indications are Dublin is still an issue and Cork not much better. The border counties are struggling as well.

November Golf

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Was it? There was a thread called “Have NPHET lost the dressing room?” Set up the day after the first recommendation after level 5? Was that merged with this one so? I always though it was the same thread with just a name change. Apologies for any confusion

Well a quick jump to page 1 would have confirmed that for you :rolleyes:. It wouldn't have required much research, especially when you trying to making a point about timeline of the thread.

I did jumped to page 26 to confirm that yes there was post titled "Have NPHET lost the dressing room?" on the 05-10-2020, 01:34. This would have been a hours after NPHET made the first recommendation and it was leaked to the media but before the government made any decision on it.

Unfortunately, I don't see any mod comment to suggest it was a separate thread merged with this but I accept that it probably was .

Captain_Crash

Mike Foxtrot wrote: »

Well a quick jump to page 1 would have confirmed that for you :rolleyes:. It wouldn't have required much research, especially when you trying to making a point about timeline of the thread.

I did jumped to page 26 to confirm that yes there was post titled "Have NPHET lost the dressing room?" on the 05-10-2020, 01:34. This would have been a hours after NPHET made the first recommendation and it was leaked to the media but before the government made any decision on it.

Unfortunately, I don't see any mod comment to suggest it was a separate thread merged with this but I accept that it probably was .

I knew I hadn't gone completely mad. Cheers.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

You can if Tony Holohan comes back to work in those days,........ coincidence or what??

This. Especially since he came back early.

Paddygreen

Bass Reeves wrote: »

L3 at a county level is hard to police it worked in Kildare, Laois and Offaly. The reason it did not work in Dublin was no enforcement. People who still did not need to were travelling to Dublin for work and shopping. Some employers in Dublin was still unwilling to all employees who could to work from home.

You had the on street booze ups in Temple bar and elsewhere. You had people living in Dublin still coming home weekends. A nation wide L3 enforced is totally different to a county based one. In the border counties you still had cross border movent. As well you had the issue with return to college parties

Even with L5 all indications are Dublin is still an issue and Cork not much better. The border counties are struggling as well.

We really need L6 and L7 going forward. Curfews and permits to leave your house are what’s needed in these terrifying times.

Vieira82

Paddygreen wrote: »

We really need L6 and L7 going forward. Curfews and permits to leave your house are what’s needed in these terrifying times.

You have opened Pandora´s box. Get ready for a torrent of horror comments worse than a Friday 13th movie xD

bladespin

Paddygreen wrote: »

We really need L6 and L7 going forward. Curfews and permits to leave your house are what’s needed in these terrifying times.

Vieira82 wrote: »

You have opened Pandora´s box. Get ready for a torrent of horror comments worse than a Friday 13th movie xD

Pretty sure they're joking.

PTH2009

I'd be very happy if the the public are the makings of the falling of NPHET

What a sight it would be of there whole plans going up in smoke

Peter Flynt

NPHET asked for the patience of the Irish people. They asked them to take the pain of the restrictions as other countries were living lives as normal as they could. We were closing down parts of society which brought enjoyment to people (pubs, restaurants) whilst telling people either to get to work or go on the PUP. . . .But it was all to be worth it.

Well now we are halfway down the mountain and heading back up it again and this is why NPHET have lost people.

And who do NPHET focus on?
A small group of people from 1 tweet enjoying themselves, attendance at funerals (blaming dead people).
A complete joke.

It seems the restrictions are for nothing.

PTH2009

Peter Flynt wrote: »

NPHET asked for the patience of the Irish people. They asked them to take the pain of the restrictions as other countries were living lives as normal as they could. We were closing down parts of society which brought enjoyment to people (pubs, restaurants) whilst telling people either to get to work or go on the PUP. . . .But it was all to be worth it.

Well now we are halfway down the mountain and heading back up it again and this is why NPHET have lost people.

And who do NPHET focus on?
A small group of people from 1 tweet enjoying themselves, attendance at funerals (blaming dead people).
A complete joke.

It seems the restrictions are for nothing.

Very true and something needs to be done about it

Mental health of people is down in the doldrums

funnydoggy

I'd love an updated poll.

emo72

Yeah. Fresh poll please.

Jack1985

It amazes me the lack of scrutiny of what is outputted from NPHET by our media, they are like nodding noddies in the ''press'' conferences.

I'm amazed people seem to be so ignorant of the fact that we have had for years a Department of Health and HSE management structure that can't admit they are in over their heads; it's been the status quo for years a complete red-tape money funnelled p*ss pot. How many scandals have to appear to show this?

NPHET is made up of these characters and led by one individual with disgraceful conduct.

Thats me

Jack1985 wrote: »

NPHET is made up of these characters and led by one individual with disgraceful conduct.

Government said almost the same. As for me they better go to media than silently trading with govt :rolleyes:

SB71

I think a new poll should be opened, guaranteed it will be a complete reversal

MelbourneMan

Jack1985 wrote: »

It amazes me the lack of scrutiny of what is outputted from NPHET by our media, they are like nodding noddies in the ''press'' conferences.

It would be my considered observation, that it is probably to the credit of our media that they are aware that they themselves are ill qualified to scrutinise the advice and recommendation issued by NPHET and the many specialists behind the actual committee members. The knowledge, technical expertise and experience gulf is wide.

The problem arises however, when the wider public, as a whole even less informed than the journalists, make judgements on something that is way beyond their sphere of knowledge. I understand this causes them some frustration.

But the mistake lies with the people, not NPHET.

prunudo

MelbourneMan wrote: »

It would be my considered observation, that it is probably to the credit of our media that they are aware that they themselves are ill qualified to scrutinise the advice and recommendation issued by NPHET and the many specialists behind the actual committee members. The knowledge, technical expertise and experience gulf is wide.

The problem arises however, when the wider public, as a whole even less informed than the journalists, make judgements on something that is way beyond their sphere of knowledge. I understand this causes them some frustration.

But the mistake lies with the people, not NPHET.

Thats some high level condescension in your post.

bladespin

MelbourneMan wrote: »

But the mistake lies with the people, not NPHET.

I think you're very wrong there, NPHET's very role is as advisors to the government and to the people, personally I think Tony Holohan did an excellent job at this from the beginning, lots of pretty clear advice to the public etc, if the public don't understand the reasoning behind the advice then NPHET is fundamentally failing.

Blaming the people for not understanding an advisor is ridiculous, it's not their job to understand.

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Even with L5 all indications are Dublin is still an issue and Cork not much better. The border counties are struggling as well.

Cork case numbers are pretty good - it's Dublin, commuter counties and border counties that are the problem.

MelbourneMan

bladespin wrote: »

I think you're very wrong there, NPHET's very role is as advisors to the government and to the people, personally I think Tony Holohan did an excellent job at this from the beginning, lots of pretty clear advice to the public etc, if the public don't understand the reasoning behind the advice then NPHET is fundamentally failing.

Blaming the people for not understanding an advisor is ridiculous, it's not their job to understand.

I think we are agreeing actually. It isn't their job to understand. The problem is that they try to, don't, and so conclude NPHET is incorrect, crowns, dictators, and so on.
So I would agree the people are not at fault for not understanding. But they are at fault for trying to understand and determine whether they agree with something that they have no basis for being able to do so.

They should simple follow the guidelines defined by those most qualified to define them.

Thats me

bladespin wrote: »

I think you're very wrong there, NPHET's very role is as advisors to the government and to the people, personally I think Tony Holohan did an excellent job at this from the beginning, lots of pretty clear advice to the public etc, if the public don't understand the reasoning behind the advice then NPHET is fundamentally failing.

Blaming the people for not understanding an advisor is ridiculous, it's not their job to understand.

Wait, i missing something. Public pays to advisor for their advises. Adviser have advised L5, but govt, who are also paid by public, decided to go L3 and, after one week delay, agreed to go L5, but failed to enforce restrictions so now we likely to go for extended lockdown. What the problem with adviser? They seem did their job as it should be.

MelbourneMan

MelbourneMan wrote: »

It would be my considered observation, that it is probably to the credit of our media that they are aware that they themselves are ill qualified to scrutinise the advice and recommendation issued by NPHET and the many specialists behind the actual committee members. The knowledge, technical expertise and experience gulf is wide.

The problem arises however, when the wider public, as a whole even less informed than the journalists, make judgements on something that is way beyond their sphere of knowledge. I understand this causes them some frustration.

But the mistake lies with the people, not NPHET.

Yeah because the people all left school at 12 and wouldn't understand those hard sums that dem dere dockters understand sorr ....

It's accepted that it takes 2 weeks for restrictions to be seen to impact the daily cases..... we are 4 weeks into L5....... last two weeks numbers.....



For whatever reason L5 restrictions seem to be doing very little. The L3 restrictions did work eventually but Tony kept on saying L5 was required so the government gave in I reckon.

they likely couldn't risk waiting it out another week or so but going forward I hope it's accepted that L5 is not required or beneficial.

Drastic reduction in numbers seen from mid Oct.........

MelbourneMan

MelbourneMan wrote: »

I think we are agreeing actually. It isn't their job to understand. The problem is that they try to, don't, and so conclude NPHET is incorrect, crowns, dictators, and so on.
So I would agree the people are not at fault for not understanding. But they are at fault for trying to understand and determine whether they agree with something that they have no basis for being able to do so.

They should simple follow the guidelines defined by those most qualified to define them.

Speak for yourself. Maybe you are uneducated but some of us actually are qualified to interpret statistics and likely outcomes and understand how decisions should be made - with cost / benefit analyses which are completely absent here. Following the guidelines has huge benefits and relatively small costs. Shutting down thousands of businesses and non-COVID healthcare has huge costs and very little benefits.

prunudo

Augeo wrote: »

It's accepted that it takes 2 weeks for restrictions to be seen to impact the daily cases..... we are 4 weeks into L5....... last two weeks numbers.....



For whatever reason L5 restrictions seem to be doing very little. The L3 restrictions did work eventually but Tony kept on saying L5 was required so the government gave in I reckon.

they likely couldn't risk waiting it out another week or so but going forward I hope it's accepted that L5 is not required or beneficial.

Drastic reduction in numbers seen from mid Oct.........

I think a true level 5 would get results and low numbers, the fact schools and so many work places are allowed open this time around makes it much harder to drive numbers down to very low levels.

Augeo

Augeo wrote: »

It's accepted that it takes 2 weeks for restrictions to be seen to impact the daily cases..... we are 4 weeks into L5....... last two weeks numbers.....



For whatever reason L5 restrictions seem to be doing very little. The L3 restrictions did work eventually but Tony kept on saying L5 was required so the government gave in I reckon.

they likely couldn't risk waiting it out another week or so but going forward I hope it's accepted that L5 is not required or beneficial.

Drastic reduction in numbers seen from mid Oct.........

There's a floor on what you can achieve. Unless you barricade everyone into their homes with armed guards in hazmat suits there is little more to be achieved. The evidence points to us getting here or close to it with Level 3, yet we have imposed massively more damaging restrictions for almost no gain. Plus people have had enough. Any more of this and it will become counterproductive.

looking at outbreak stats, the biggest one is "Private House". In other words "we don't know".

If we look at the ones we DO know, hospitals, nursing homes and residential institutions are the top 3. All should be easily controllable in terms of access. Further lockdowns will make no difference here.

PearseCork92

I'm relatively recently back from South Korea. The test and tracing system in Ireland compared to there is a complete joke. I got tested 3 times over the year as I was in vague proximity to clusters. Every district of every city has a walk-in testing service you can access at 10 minutes notice and you get results via text within hours. The tracing system is resourced to the hilt, and on entering the country you actually have to quarantine following a test at the airport; you must download an app and you report your symptoms 3 times a day and they actually follow up with phone calls, and, the app's location tracker must be on at all times. Every business has to log people entering the premises via QR code. If you were in that premises where there was a case, you are contacted to go get tested. Entering Ireland, I got one text message asking if I'm still at the address I said I was. Nothing else.

Nothing to do with culture or obedient orientals with their mysterious ways. They just have their sh*t together. Members of the Korean public still act like idiots and gather in groups where they shouldn't just as Irish people do, but when something does go wrong, their disease control system moves rapidly and is well able for it. No lockdown at all since the pandemic started, just mild social distancing advice here and there.

I don't know if you can lay the blame at the government or NPHET, but we are light-years behind Asia in practical measures in containing the virus.

The government should send a HSE team to South Korea and Taiwan and actually pay attention to how to do things instead of pointing fingers at students / pints / insert something here.