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What do you believe happens when we die

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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,365 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    looksee wrote: »
    If these are supposed to be Christian ideas they are not ones that I have ever heard, or that Jesus taught. They are remarkably detailed in their fantasy.

    This bit


    has almost porngraphic undertones. As I recall, Jesus's strongest threat was that people who did not believe in him would not experience an afterlife with god. He didn't discuss the specifics of the bdsm details. What is your source?
    Jesus doesn't say a lot about hell (or heaven, for that matter) but he does say something. He mentions torment, flames and thirst (Lk 16), unquenchable fire and worms that do not die (Mk 9), a fiery furnace with weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13) and he indicates that the condition of being in Hell is a permanent one (Lk 16 again). And in Mt 10 he compares it to Genenna, which was the location of the principal rubbish dump outside Jerusalem.

    So, fairly grim, then. The Christian tradition has produced a great deal of vivid imagery based on these few lines, but has also tended to affirm that the lines (and the imagery) can be understood in a metaphorical or figurative sense.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    I am going to come back and give it another go but I was too nice this time and , yes that is a warning ! !


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    That's how consciousness is understood from a scientific point of view, I was talking about consciousness from a spiritual point of view as I believe that there is a difference between the two.

    We could bring in consciousness form the Jedi point of view I guess, but I would prefer to keep it to POV's that have actual evidence behind them.
    You can of course be unconscious but, I believe that you would also still have a spiritual consciousness.

    I believe our "spiritual" consciousness continues to exist after we die as it was in existent before we were born and it will continue to exist after we die.

    I'm not claiming that my POV is right I was merely presenting it from my perspective and by saying that I believe to be more plausible than we just die and it's over doesn't mean that I think I'm right it just means that I'm more convinced that, that possible scenario is more likely to be true.

    And as you still haven't explained why you think your POV is more likely top be correct, you are still in the realm of wishful thinking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    nthclare wrote: »
    I think we have hit a brick wall here, in my last post I said there's an advantage for Atheists who go to convention's and it's good to meet up and discuss whatever.

    We moved on from that and as for me playing a moderator well, you're only plagerising the same old mantra over and over.
    Let it go, for the sake of a paragraph.

    My last post pretty much wrapped my response to your post and you still have to bring in other poster's to our discussion.

    I don't know if you're insecure or just need validation or you're grasping at straws and haven't enough to make a straw man...
    But it's quite clear I put my cards on the table and you have a blind spot.

    And again you are playing the player not the ball, and making this about me while refusing to respond to anything I said. Do not get me wrong, INCLUDING comments about me.... like I have in my posts about you.... is ok. But when you do it INSTEAD of discussion rather than PART of discussion then you are once again falling back on the same MO I referred to at least twice now. This is not a blind spot with me at all as you pretend. I repeat for my third time the comment about the decent prices on mirrors at Ikea.

    AGAIN: You declared by fiat what topics do not fit this forum, despite not being a moderator. And I linked to a video which explains exactly why those topics do belong on this forum. Rather than reply to any of it first you made it about Nugent, and now you are making it about me. But a response to my point is still not forthcoming, nor is a defence of your original assertion.

    If you do not want (or, frankly, can not) discuss a topic, no one is saying you have to. But it does not mean the topic does not belong.

    The thread is about what happens when we die however and I am happy to return to this discussion when you are. One aspect of death is the discussion about whether consciousness survives the death of the brain. This brings us into the territory of sprit, souls and more. You claim to believe some or all of these exist, including things like "demons" apparently. But of course ONCE AGAIN when I tried to engage with you on discussion of those topics.... you resorted to the same MO of declaring it unfit for a topic on this forum. Every time: Shut down discussion you do not like, or are not capable of proceeding with.

    Side note: Again I do not think the word plagarise means what you think it does. You have used it entirely incorrectly twice now.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    Oh will we just leave it there and get on with the intention of the thread we're like two ninny's throwing the ball back and forth lol

    Let's just say we'll agree to disagree lol


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,160 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    There are fundamental differences in how we perceive the world.

    As I've said there are somethings that science can't explain and there isn't an answer for everything or evidence for everything and I'm fine with having faith in something I believe without evidence to verify it.

    Obviously that's impossible for you to comprehend because you are clearly a rational thinker with a scientific mind. While I'm a more spiritual believer and probably an irrational thinker from your POV.

    As for deciding what things to believe and not believe in it's more to do with having faith in things rather than believing and I probably should have clarified that earlier. As you have rightly pointed out to be able to believe in something you need to think that there might be evidence to prove your assumptions to be correct.

    Ah yeah but you pointed to some unknowable "mysteries" like what colour is a mirror and whay can't we see our own eyes and I answered them (I'm just a normal bloke who happened to know the answers to those questions). So they were far from "mysteries" as you called them. If you had enquired about them you could have gotten answers and I think that's an important distinction here.

    So when we both come up against something where we don't have sufficient evidence to reach a conclusion I don't reach a conclusion and look for more evidence and you have faith. But how do you decide what to have faith in?

    You decide what the answer is without evidence as you did with this topic, so How do you conclude what's the answer? I'm talking about the point before you have faith in your conclusion I'm asking how you reached your conclusion. So how did you reach your position on what happens after people die?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,151 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Well if there is a heaven then there is a hell. Just for balance , like.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    nthclare wrote: »
    I'm not interested in even responding to this to be honest.
    So we'll leave it there ok
    nthclare wrote: »
    It's like this now there's a lot of people who like to suggest that all we are at the end is a rotting corpse.
    I've experienced atheists say this to thiests and they seem to think we're basically an organic computer that shuts down and rots.
    And they play on it for a reaction.

    As an artist/poet/gardener in my opinion that's a very narrow view and in itself it's my view, I'm not calling anyone out.
    If I say I don't like the way so and so farm's her or his land or looks after her or his animals animals,it doesn't mean all farmers are the same.

    I didn't read the post's before mine, I don't seek validation from people's posts or get rilled up because of an opinion and personalise it.

    There's a lot of people getting upset or triggered in conversations on board's and that's a waste of energy, you suggested that I play the victim.
    Far from it, I post metaphorically a lot I don't personalise my post's.

    I'm not out to upset anyone either.
    As you'll see that my post's in other forums I call a spade a spade.

    My opinion shouldn't matter to you,as you're well aware that you're a good person yourself.
    I've no problem with anyone who posts here, if someone wants to say whatever it's their opinion.

    But if someone's Idea of all we are in the end is a rotten corpse, which stinks decays and that's it.
    I've every right to suggest that's not a nice way to look at it and from my perspective it's a very narrow and shallow way to look at a lifespan.

    And you're right, we do decay and maybe that's it, but the stardust sounds more adventurous and mystical than what I suggest isn't nice.

    So it's better people don't get triggered by my post's, it's not worth validating your opinion on mine.

    So if my post upset your good self, it wasn't my intention.

    Using language like I can skulk off or I'm playing the victim is just a red rag to a sink full of bubbles and soap, so that's just trying to get an emotive response.

    So we'll leave it there then :)
    nthclare wrote: »
    It shows that Atheists are as fearful of the unknown just as much as thiests are.

    Maybe there are things your brain associated with being scared is an understatement.

    There are things your brain associates with being scared,and I don't need to research it or plagerise some scientist from an internet site to prove it.

    Oh I'd say in the back of 20% of self proclaimed atheists mind's they still wonder if there's demon's, souls or dietys etc

    Whatever about Angels , I prefer demon's they suit me better to be honest.
    nthclare wrote: »
    Oh will we just leave it there and get on with the intention of the thread we're like two ninny's throwing the ball back and forth lol

    Let's just say we'll agree to disagree lol

    MOD

    Nthclare. Your posting in this thread absolutely falls into the low level trolling you have previously been warned about.

    Here Robinch issued a warning stating you are heading for a week long ban due to your posting style https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114121977&postcount=666 , and although you have had the sense to keep your more aggressive tendencies in check you are far from posting in good faith here.
    You have continually made pronouncements and when called out you attempt to shut down that particular discussion.
    You are very free with telling Atheists in here what they do and do not think, and had the bare faced cheek to complain that people were discussing topics that have nothing to do with Atheism while writing reams of off-topic information about yourself and your beliefs as a pagan.

    I was not going to ban you for a week as per Robinch's warning but only because you have not been aggressive - but then I realised I had already warned you here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114204933&postcount=690 that your low level trolling was to stop or Robinch's ban would be implemented.

    Banned for one week.

    You are becoming a time sink in this forum. Up your game or go elsewhere before you find yourself permanently banned.

    Do NOT respond to this in thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Well if there is a heaven then there is a hell. Just for balance , like.

    Maybe they are both the same thing. I always loved the Tom Waits song lyric that goes something like "don't you know there ain't no devil theres just god when he's drunk". Quite often the good character and the bad character in a story turn out to be the same person.

    I have heard some earnest well meaning descriptions of heaven that made it sound pretty damn hellish to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    o1s1n wrote: »
    Gnostic_Agnostic_Atheist.png.72b579449ee7fceb26d0632e19e1e13b.png

    So I'm a 'Gnostic Atheist'. Well, you learn something new every day!

    I don't like the way the chart says 'Lacks belief in' as if it's some kind of shortfall.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Hah yeah its a bit like describing someone who is healthy as "Lacking in Covid-19 virus"


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,316 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Jesus doesn't say a lot about hell (or heaven, for that matter) but he does say something. He mentions torment, flames and thirst (Lk 16), unquenchable fire and worms that do not die (Mk 9), a fiery furnace with weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13) and he indicates that the condition of being in Hell is a permanent one (Lk 16 again). And in Mt 10 he compares it to Genenna, which was the location of the principal rubbish dump outside Jerusalem.

    So, fairly grim, then. The Christian tradition has produced a great deal of vivid imagery based on these few lines, but has also tended to affirm that the lines (and the imagery) can be understood in a metaphorical or figurative sense.

    Fair enough, apparently my Christian experience was gentler than nthclare's, I don't actually remember any of those. I still think there is an unnecessary avidity for punishment in his version.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,151 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Maybe they are both the same thing. I always loved the Tom Waits song lyric that goes something like "don't you know there ain't no devil theres just god when he's drunk". Quite often the good character and the bad character in a story turn out to be the same person.

    I have heard some earnest well meaning descriptions of heaven that made it sound pretty damn hellish to me.


    You could be onto something there. Reminds me of a story of a man who dies and found himself in the afterlife. He was taken by a smartly dressed gentleman in to a large mansion and inside it was packed with people who had died. He was given a drink and noticed an old man kissing a beautiful young woman in one corner. He asked the gentleman where he was. 'You're in Hell, welcome!'

    Wow! if this is hell then I'm happy to be here like that old guy there.
    The Gentleman looked at him and replied You misunderstood the situation. That is that Young Lady's Hell!.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,582 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    nthclare wrote: »
    I'm not selling anything here, maybe you engage with Atheists like the poster's here who still like to debate about something that doesn't exist and bring in education, abortion the hazzards of belief and all sorts of things into this forum, and politics dressing it up as a hobbyhorse "seriously". Those subjects belong in other forums.
    And has nothing to do with Atheism, nothing.

    But in a society like Ireland, these issues have everything to do with religion. Many of us here grew up at a time, not that long ago, when the power of the catholic church was still entirely unquestioned in this country. Its influence in most areas is gone but in healthcare and partcularly education, it still dictates how services funded by the taxpayer are delivered, and uses these services to promote itself, taking advantage of the vulnerability of children, the ill, the disabled etc. in quite a sickening fashion tbh.

    How religion has affected and still affects our society is fascinating. I mean, how you even get people to believe this sort of stuff in the first place is a bit mind boggling, yet they do. People have been convinced to lock themselves away from the world because of it, to give up a sex life, to give up all their posessions, while others use it to wield power over others and grossly enrich themselves. Many people who claim to be religious have rather a vague belief, but there are those who take every single one of their religion's bizarre claims entirely seriously, e.g. believing in the literal truth of every single word of the bible. Quite a stretch given how many translations of that work there have been over the years, and how many books were added and dropped along the way...

    Most of the "existence of god" debates were pretty much played out on this forum before I started reading it nearly ten years ago, and tbh I find them boring anyway. No theist can provide any evidence whatsoever for the existence of their god(s) so what's there to debate, really? Assuming something exists without any evidence whatsoever is not logical.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,361 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    If God is so loving you'd think instead of sending ppl to hell for all eternity he'd just extinguish the failed souls he created in the first place. Or is there some technical reason that's not possible?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    Isn't it extraordinary that we ever dreamt up the idea of an afterlife? All the evidence says we are born and are alive, then we die and we're not alive anymore. But somehow we imagined a whole story about what happens after that when we have absolutely no evidence for it.

    The idea of an afterlife is just a trick our brains play on us.
    you have the frontal lobes to thank for that. I think when people became aware enough to be frightened they invented the after life to calm the fear. A scientist on radio once said the brain fears dying and releaes chemicals that create the bright tunnel effect


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    AllForIt wrote: »
    If God is so loving you'd think instead of sending ppl to hell for all eternity he'd just extinguish the failed souls he created in the first place. Or is there some technical reason that's not possible?

    Didn't you know?

    God is a vengeful SOB. Read the old testament, a twisted feck like God isn't going to change to bring complely loving .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    A dear friend died recently and had a Spiritualist ceremony in the Funeral Home. Numbers limited obviously because of Covid. Was absolutely amazing. Reflected friend's values, love for others and legacy left. Great music too.

    No God mentioned, no afterlife either, just who and what they were and what they contributed to life.

    The celebrant was wonderful too. All in all it really made me think. What the F is all this church thing about. No one really believes there is anything more anyway, just celebrate the life that has gone and grieve like everyone else.

    No one ever came back to tell me how wonderful it is in the afterlife anyway!
    many do actually believe, i know many of them


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,926 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    many do actually believe, i know many of them

    My friend didn't. And That is why I respected it all.

    Honestly there are some who will despair at their dog's or cat's demise, no funerals or afterlife there. And euthanasia is totally accepted. What is the difference since God brought them all into life AFAIK.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    When a soul is created, it cannot be destroyed. You are either with God or with the Devil. When Lucifer was a high ranking angel in heaven he wanted to be God and have everyone worship him. There was a war where one third of the angels following Lucifer were defeated and casted down to earth. You now have a similar choice, do you follow the world and thereby the devil or do you reject the world and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your saviour from this sinful and corrupt world.
    how can you even prove the soul exists?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    My friend didn't. And That is why I respected it all.

    Honestly there are some who will despair at their dog's or cat's demise, no funerals or afterlife there. And euthanasia is totally accepted. What is the difference since God brought them all into life AFAIK. Or am told so.
    but above you said no one , not your friend. it is simpy not true that no one believes. many do, in fact millions do. i know and am related to many of them


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,926 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    but above you said no one , not your friend. it is simpy not true that no one believes. many do, in fact millions do. i know and am related to many of them

    Accept your views, but don't agree with them, but bed time for me now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,582 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    AllForIt wrote: »
    If God is so loving you'd think instead of sending ppl to hell for all eternity he'd just extinguish the failed souls he created in the first place. Or is there some technical reason that's not possible?

    The men who invented religion invented a heaven and a hell because while for some people the carrot is an effective approach, for others it's the stick.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    If our energy/consciousness 'lives' on afterwards, it might be in a completely different form.
    We view insects for example as mindless organic machines, compared to our state. The afterlife for us if it exists (...) may be like the difference between an ant's interaction/experience of reality comparable with how we experience reality. Or visa versa.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I've always found it interesting that some* atheists give out about the controlling nature of religion and the freedom they believe it denies, despite the fact that they are materialists. The end result of materialism is a denial of the existence of free will !

    *Seems incorrect to lump all those who are not a member of a club under the one hive mind umbrella

    Oh how I laughed
    materialist
    /məˈtɪərɪəlɪst/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    plural noun: materialists

    1.
    a person who considers material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values.

    Ask the majority of self-described Catholics in Ireland if they'd rather give up their mobile phone or give up mass and the vast majority will say mass. Why?
    Because they likely don't go already

    :D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Oh how I laughed



    Ask the majority of self-described Catholics in Ireland if they'd rather give up their mobile phone or give up mass and the vast majority will say mass. Why?
    Because they likely don't go already

    :D
    God does not need a Mobile Phone to get through ;) So they would be correct to keep the Mobile Phone.;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,160 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    you have the frontal lobes to thank for that. I think when people became aware enough to be frightened they invented the after life to calm the fear. A scientist on radio once said the brain fears dying and releaes chemicals that create the bright tunnel effect

    Maybe so. But really and truly, the notion of an afterlife, in spite of the complete lack of evidence for it, is an interesting phenomenon.

    Brains are great, as you suggested, and isn't it interesting that we even created the idea of consciousness to describe our experience? There's just no reason to believe there is even such a thing as consciousness that exists beyond the brain but still we invented the idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Jesus doesn't say a lot about hell (or heaven, for that matter) but he does say something. He mentions torment, flames and thirst (Lk 16), unquenchable fire and worms that do not die (Mk 9), a fiery furnace with weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13) and he indicates that the condition of being in Hell is a permanent one (Lk 16 again)....
    Reminds me of George Carlin's description....



    For the full sketch see here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Oh how I laughed



    Ask the majority of self-described Catholics in Ireland if they'd rather give up their mobile phone or give up mass and the vast majority will say mass. Why?
    Because they likely don't go already

    :D

    Might want to look at the other definition to materialism there chief


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,582 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Oh how I laughed
    1.
    a person who considers material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values.

    That's the definition the RCC favour of course, because they like to imply that anyone not joining in their woo is a selfish evil greedy person.

    Same as they twist the word "secularism" into meaning "antitheism".

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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