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What do you believe happens when we die

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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,587 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    "Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born—a hundred million years—and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million years put together. There was a peace, a serenity, an absence of all sense of responsibility, an absence of worry, an absence of care, grief, perplexity; and the presence of a deep content and unbroken satisfaction in that hundred million years of holiday which I look back upon with a tender longing and with a grateful desire to resume, when the opportunity comes."

    - Mark Twain

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Twain had a very nihilistic mood the day he wrote that. Poetic license. If you don't exist you don't experience.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,587 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    auspicious wrote: »
    Twain had a very nihilistic mood the day he wrote that. Poetic license. If you don't exist you don't experience.

    Well the word "annihilation" used in relation to his future death surely imples non-existence? and it's not like we didn't not-exist previously.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    It implies ending or destroy something. Something is or exists until it does. Annihilation does not apply to something that never was.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    "Annihilation has no terrors for me, because I have already tried it before I was born—a hundred million years—and I have suffered more in an hour, in this life, than I remember to have suffered in the whole hundred million years put together. There was a peace, a serenity, an absence of all sense of responsibility, an absence of worry, an absence of care, grief, perplexity; and the presence of a deep content and unbroken satisfaction in that hundred million years of holiday which I look back upon with a tender longing and with a grateful desire to resume, when the opportunity comes."

    - Mark Twain
    That quote gets at what I was saying earlier, about some people finding what they feel is comfort from the idea of nothingness and a definitive end.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    Can I clarify what we mean by "we" when we say "we" die as this open to interpretation.

    Do we mean our body? Soul? Consciousness? Spirit?

    As I've already responded in this thread but, that was based on my interpretation of "we" meaning just our body.

    As I believe our inner most being the "I am" that precedes our notion of ourselves and our identity doesn't die as it was not born.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,275 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    our identity doesn't die as it was not born.
    how did it come into existence?


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,587 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    OK so where was it for the preceding 14 billion years or so?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,275 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    my identity is comprised in no insignificant way (to put it mildly) by the circumstances in which i was born and raised. you could argue that my reaction to those circumstances was somewhat predicted by the existence of some pre-existing 'soul', but that would raise the question - how many such pre-existing 'souls' exist, waiting for a corporeal body to inhabit?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    .

    As I believe our inner most being the "I am" that precedes our notion of ourselves and our identity doesn't die as it was not born.

    I 'believe' it's turtles all the way down.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    how did it come into existence?

    It came into existence through our mind and our perception of ourselves.

    Our consciousness doesn't die as it has always existed we only think it exists within our body.

    Our body is like a candle that is lit it keeps burning and will eventually burn out and die but our consciousness is the neverending flame that lit that candle and it cannot die because it was not born as it has always existed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    auspicious wrote: »
    I 'believe' it's turtles all the way down.

    I don't know what that means tbh.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,275 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    It came into existence through our mind and our perception of ourselves.

    ...it has always existed.
    does not compute?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    does not compute?

    Just answering the question the thread asked not trying to convince anyone that I'm right and their wrong just giving my perspective on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    How would we know that we alive if we had not once been dead?

    We aren't born so we don't die.

    Energy can't be destroyed so the energy inside must live on once our body dies.

    And it warms up the coffin for a day or so. The worms enjoy our remains, and that is it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,587 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It came into existence through our mind and our perception of ourselves.

    ...and when the percolation of oxygen and nutrients through the brain which brought that mind and that perception into being stops, what then?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    Just answering the question the thread asked not trying to convince anyone that I'm right and their wrong just giving my perspective on it.

    The factor here is your perspective. If your perspective only revolves on your belief then you have to provide evidence that your belief is founded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    auspicious wrote: »
    The factor here is your perspective. If your perspective only revolves on your belief then you have to provide evidence that your belief is founded.

    Have a look at Mooji on YouTube as he points towards this and he could explain it better than I could it's a spiritual belief rather than a religious one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    That quote gets at what I was saying earlier, about some people finding what they feel is comfort from the idea of nothingness and a definitive end.

    I am not sure how useful an observation that is in isolation however. Because likely you get just as much comfort in your beliefs about an after life as another person might from no after life.

    Their comfort in isolation is not interesting therefore.

    More interesting would be whether a person believes something BECAUSE it brings them comfort.... or whether they believe that something and incidentally the belief also brings them comfort.

    For me it is the latter. I see absolutely no evidence whatsoever that consciousness survives the death of the brain. Simply none. Certainly none on this thread. So I do not believe in an after life.

    That fact is one I am happy about, as the idea of an eternal afterlife is an awful one. The idea of one ruled by a dictator, even a supposed benign dictator, is monumentally worse.

    But my relief that there is no after life has absolutely no impact on my lack of belief in an afterlife. I do not lack that belief because of the comfort or relief it brings.

    I am not sure how the break down between theists and atheists is in this regard. But my years of talking to both camps tells me that belief because of comfort, rather than evidence or lack of evidence, is a trait I find significantly and massively more often in theists.

    One speaker, I think it was Sam Harris, said that in all his public touring debating religious topics.... that defence of religion seemed to fall into three general groups and rarely fell outside it. They were essentially:

    1) Argument that the belief/religion itself was true. (the rarest)
    2) Ignoring the topic and arguing that atheist is dangerous or damaging.
    3) Arguing some narrative that religion brings comfort or happiness, regardless of whether true or not.

    And my experience is much in line with his on both the topic of the existence of god, and in the concept of an after life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    ...and when the percolation of oxygen and nutrients through the brain which brought that mind and that perception into being stops, what then?

    Our consciousness continues to live so death isn't the end for it, our brain and body dies but our consciousness manifested into our bodies to make this very discovery. Like I've said before I'm not talking about the scientific definition of consciousness rather a spiritual one.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,587 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Have a look at Mooji on YouTube as he points towards this and he could explain it better than I could it's a spiritual belief rather than a religious one.

    Spirituality is even worse nonsense than religion. At least we know religions exist! Nobody has ever been able to satisfactorily define 'spirituality' never mind demonstrate its existence.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,587 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Our consciousness continues to live

    How?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    How?

    I can't explain that to you as I'm only beginning my own journey into answering that question myself.

    You need to find the answer to that question yourself .I certainly don't claim to have all the answers nor encourage anyone to follow my path as each person must find their own way to know the true self. This true self is free from our identity of ourselves and our ego that we have been conditioned to believe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    Spirituality is even worse nonsense than religion. At least we know religions exist! Nobody has ever been able to satisfactorily define 'spirituality' never mind demonstrate its existence.

    That's fair enough but I believe that not everything in this world can be defined and explained and you can either reject or accept that concept.

    What you call nonsense others call home as spirituality brings people home to their true selves not the person or body that we believe ourselves to be spirituality helps us discover our inner most being.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Like I've said before I'm not talking about the scientific definition of consciousness rather a spiritual one.

    What's the difference between a "scientific definition" and a "spiritual one"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    I am not sure how useful an observation that is in isolation however. Because likely you get just as much comfort in your beliefs about an after life as another person might from no after life.

    Their comfort in isolation is not interesting therefore.

    More interesting would be whether a person believes something BECAUSE it brings them comfort.... or whether they believe that something and incidentally the belief also brings them comfort.

    For me it is the latter. I see absolutely no evidence whatsoever that consciousness survives the death of the brain. Simply none. Certainly none on this thread. So I do not believe in an after life.

    That fact is one I am happy about, as the idea of an eternal afterlife is an awful one. The idea of one ruled by a dictator, even a supposed benign dictator, is monumentally worse.

    But my relief that there is no after life has absolutely no impact on my lack of belief in an afterlife. I do not lack that belief because of the comfort or relief it brings.

    I am not sure how the break down between theists and atheists is in this regard. But my years of talking to both camps tells me that belief because of comfort, rather than evidence or lack of evidence, is a trait I find significantly and massively more often in theists.

    You see no evidence that consciousness survives death of the brain. You believe, presumably, that consciousness resides in the brain.

    You believe. Based on evidence which you find convincing to you. You're am evidence based believer - that belief producing atheism.

    -

    Your conclusion about theists rests on your decision as to what constitutes evidence. They may not lack evidence whilst lacking what YOU hold to be evidence.

    You get to be judge and jury as to what evidence is. And to no great surprise, figure yourself on firm ground and those with a conflicting view, not.

    -

    You speak about evidence in something of a Royal We fashion. Claiming ground no one (but like minds) has granted you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    You see no evidence that consciousness survives death of the brain. You believe, presumably, that consciousness resides in the brain.

    My position is that all the evidence we have so far.... not most of it but all of it..... links consciousness to the brain. None of the evidence we have so far.... not some of it but none of it.... shows any disconnect or possibility of disconnect between the two.

    So it is not what I "believe" that is relevant here. It is what the evidence thus far suggests to me. And it suggests one thing only, and not the other at all.

    The rest of your narrative about me..... your usual MO of talking about me rather than ever substantiating your own positions.... is irrelevant therefore. If you have evidence or access to evidence you think I am not considering.... then by all means present it here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    My position is that all the evidence we have so far.... not most of it but all of it..... links consciousness to the brain. None of the evidence we have so far.... not some of it but none of it.... shows any disconnect or possibility of disconnect between the two.

    So it is not what I "believe" that is relevant here. It is what the evidence thus far suggests to me. And it suggests one thing only, and not the other at all.

    The rest of your narrative about me..... your usual MO of talking about me rather than ever substantiating your own positions.... is irrelevant therefore. If you have evidence or access to evidence you think I am not considering.... then by all means present it here.

    Who's 'we' if not the Royal We I referred to? And aren't you making some assumptions based on some or other philosophy of knowledge when it comes to what constitutes evidence?*

    Since the philosophy you employ rests on your believing it to be correct, doesn't all rest on a belief?


    *for those inclined to reach for dictionary definitions, spare me. Such definitions rest on philosophies. Commonly accepted philosophies granted (even by me up to a point) but only philosophies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Our consciousness continues to live so death isn't the end for it, our brain and body dies but our consciousness manifested into our bodies to make this very discovery. Like I've said before I'm not talking about the scientific definition of consciousness rather a spiritual one.

    What does that mean? What is a spiritual definition of consciousness?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,151 ✭✭✭saabsaab




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