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What do you believe happens when we die

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  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    looksee wrote: »
    I spent most of my teens reading the bible, teaching sunday school and attending services. My opinions come from an informed viewpoint. I enjoyed my teens, and at the time went along with the church stuff because I enjoyed the social aspect. Even then I was not convinced, which was why I gave up sunday school teaching.

    What you are talking about is more myth and dogma. I don't recall Jesus teaching any of the extreme stuff, the hate and disgust and despair you want us to take on board.

    I have no problem accepting that a carpenter's son was a charismatic teacher some 2000 years ago, and he had followers who spread his word. You really don't have to look beyond the influencers, celebrities, presidents and tv evangelists to know that some people can do this, and others are more than willing to follow - it saves them from thinking for themselves.

    All the convoluted horror stories that have been added in 2000 years are so much nonsense though, added solely for the purpose of garnering power and followers by the devious, for the ignorant.

    You went along with it because you liked the social aspect. You were never convinced and so gave up Sunday school teaching. You don't want to hear about hell, so you use words like hate, disgust and dispair to distance yourself from the message.

    In your world you have created your own picture to fit what you would like. You never accepted the gospel to begin with and you claim followers are ignorant. This is not an opinion from someone with an informed viewpoint.

    There are many people that reject the gospel, that want to follow the world than follow God. Your not alone. But you will have to face judgement and your time in this world won't last forever.


  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    You're speaking like this is truth and the only possible option when it is all based on your opinion or your view of Christianity and God.

    You say there is a spiritual realm but there is no proof of that, just as there is no proof that heaven or hell exists and you trying to demonise everyone that doesn't believe in God or Jesus Christ is one of the reasons I and many others have turned their back on God and Christianity. This high and mighty nonsense is painful to listen to and observe which is why people are sick to death of hearing it. So we'll just have to agree to disagree as no one knows what happens when we die and none of us can prove that any of the claims that you or I or anyone else in this thread have made are true.

    If you believe the bible is God's message to us then you should know what happens when you die. Lots of people have turned their backs, the path to hell is wide and the path to heaven is narrow. Some will hear the message and accept it, others will reject it. There should be no watered down version because someone is too attached to this world. The consequences of getting it wrong will be very bad for that person, so both heaven and hell should be told rather than just one.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    MOD

    One World Order, in line with the forum charter* I am going to have to ask you to engage in actual discussion with fellow posters and dial back on the proselytising. This is a discussion forum not a pulpit for you to lecture. You have been asked a number of questions and your responses are frankly non-answers just more soap boxing. I have allowed you plenty of lee way and time to truly engage but you are merely posting the same variations of the same theme over and over again.
    This is not the first time you have been warned in this forum and if you persist further sanctions will be taken.


    *
    3. While posting of controversial questions to stimulate debate is acceptable, soap boxing, i.e constant repetition of a single viewpoint while refusing to entertain discussion on it, is both disruptive and annoying, and will not be tolerated. You are expected to contribute something other than placard proclamations.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054860288

    Do not respond to this in thread. If you have any questions take them to PM.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    If people are decent in life and reject the gospel then yes, their soul goes down to hell. We are all sinful and fall short of God's standard. To say otherwise you are calling God a liar. That is why we needed a saviour. You see so many wicked people accepting Christ as their saviour and the holy spirit giving them a new heart with new intentions. They become a new creation with the holy spirit working inside them. This is why the devil is working so hard to trick people and make it a joke, you see it in cartoons, sitcoms, films, etc. By thinking it is not all true, these people while decent are doomed to hell when their time is up here.


    But how do you know that its calling God a liar?
    Have you actually met God and spoke to him to confirm this? or are you just making assumptions on a very old book written by people who may have been putting there own interpretations into it?

    At the end of the day you and others like you are asking people to believe your interpretation of the gospel which was not written by God, but by people on events 1000's of years ago that may or may not have happened.

    So you can state as fact what you believe to be true, but that does not make it true only for in your own mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    If you believe the bible is God's message to us then you should know what happens when you die. Lots of people have turned their backs, the path to hell is wide and the path to heaven is narrow. Some will hear the message and accept it, others will reject it. There should be no watered down version because someone is too attached to this world. The consequences of getting it wrong will be very bad for that person, so both heaven and hell should be told rather than just one.

    I don't believe that the bible is God's message and I don't believe in the God that you believe in. The universe is far too big for there to be a God that rules over us and everything in it IMO.

    The path the hell is as wide as you make it out to be and you're certainly making it wider in the way that you post and demonise everyone that doesn't believe in God, heaven or hell.

    I'm not attached to this world as I've stated previously I fear death a lot less than I used to since I no longer see it as the end of everything so I'd be fine with dying sooner than I should according to my current life expectancy.

    The consequences of getting it wrong don't exist for everyone only for you and anyone else that believes what you do. The majority of people in this thread don't seem to be too worried about being judged by God or being sent to hell unlike you who can't seem to pass up the opportunity to remind us that in your view of the world and an afterlife we'd all be condemned to hell once we die.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Laszlo Cravensworth


    The devout Christian may believe with unwavering, unfaltering conviction that the Christian God is real, just as the devout Muslims and Hindus believe with unwavering, unfaltering conviction that theirs is the one true faith and system of belief.

    But that's all it is.

    Belief and faith.

    No matter how strongly they claim to know it to be true, they don't, because they can't.


    I think the concept of an afterlife is a lovely idea for humans. The general suggestion is if you behave properly you will be rewarded significantly otherwise you will be punished horrifically. We humans love it when people are treated fairly, and an afterlife is the ultimate in fairness.

    Sadly, based on my experience of life so far, it is very clear that life is not fair. Babies die in abhorrent circumstances, suffering horrifically every day all around the world. That's not fair. Terrible people get away with imposing torment and suffering on others with impunity. That's not fair.

    A wondrous afterlife where the just will be rewarded? Sorry, I don't buy it for a second.

    For me personally, I believe we are nothing more than biological computers and when our components fail we die, if we stop eating and drinking(ie consuming energy) we die.

    That's it.

    Of course, like every other person in the world, I don't know this to be true because I have no proof.


    On a slightly unrelated note, I often find myself thinking about the longterm future of humanity and where/when it all ends for us. How many other civilizations across the universe have evolved, flourished and perished over the millions of years.? That's for another thread though :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    There used to be purgatory until it was decided that it wasn't useful any more.

    You have proof I assume all these financial wheelers and dealers, including people like trump, who you have supported numerous times on here, are satanic believers that your willing to share?

    I do believe people can be bad bastards, not arguing this, but they tend to get the unlimited support of religious people when it suits there agenda. Some of them are even religious preachers like ian paisley, and that's even before looking at the send money now, we can cure homosexuals religious folks in the u.s., and a few other religions nutters of all denominations.

    I sort of feel sorry for people who can't take any joy out of the world and have to try and make everyone else as miserable.
    Looking at it critically you would have to say that those who claim to be religious seem to be doing and condoning a lot evil acts with their followers saying that every else is the work of the devil.

    Purgatory is still a central tenant and teaching of the Catholic faith.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Indeed. I think the thing they got rid of was Limbo for infants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭inthenip


    If I die before i wake, at least in heaven i skate, cause right now on earth i can't do jack, without the man up on my back.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We'll I'd rather go to hell than be forced to believe in Jesus Christ and some God. God is within us all not above us controlling everyone and everything. So you don't need God or to believe in Jesus Christ when God is within each and everyone one of us.

    To be fair, If you go to hell then it's not really an option to believe. It's been proven.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Indeed. I think the thing they got rid of was Limbo for infants.

    Unbaptized infants.

    How ****ed was that? Died within minutes of birth without even knowing good or evil and supposedly condemned


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,582 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    inthenip wrote: »
    If I die before i wake, at least in heaven i skate, cause right now on earth i can't do jack, without the man up on my back.

    Heaven is a half pipe ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    To be fair, If you go to hell then it's not really an option to believe. It's been proven.

    Yeah true should have worded it better there's no hell to go to if you don't believe in it, which I don't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Indeed. I think the thing they got rid of was Limbo for infants.
    Unbaptized infants.

    How ****ed was that? Died within minutes of birth without even knowing good or evil and supposedly condemned

    Limbo was never an official doctrine of the Catholic Church.


    It was also probably one of the most misrepresented theories, often portrayed as a cruel one (deliberately so, or otherwise).


    In the early centuries especially, and until more modern times, it was held that one could not enter heaven without baptism. "Limbo" emerged as a proposed place where the souls of unbaptized babies went. While there, they would experience permanent natural happiness, in the manner in which it was experienced on earth (i.e they would permanently be as happy as it was possible for a human to be on earth). The heavenly experience, of being with God, was to experience a level of perfect happiness beyond that which we could experience or imagine on earth.


    Nowadays the theory of limbo has fallen out of favour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭sallyanne12


    I had a read of the thread and will address a few points. To the guy who was threatening hell on people who don’t believe in Jesus, well that’s just ridiculous. I don’t understand the arrogant attitude of overly religious people. Sure if you were born in india, you wouldn’t be feeling the same way... very close minded! Also look at all the priests who worshipped Jesus and the horrible crimes they committed. Would turn anyone away from religion.
    I like to think religion isn’t entirely true as I don’t like the threatening nature of any of them.

    For those who believe in reincarnation and our spirit living on, In your view would we know and remember out past lives at any point or forget this life forever once this body dies?
    Interestingly, How do you Atheists explain Mediums claims etc and people who talk to spirits? I know nobody has come back from the dead but maybe they simply cannot communicate with us as we can’t with them. Maybe only mediums can?
    How do you explain ouiji boards etc?
    In my opinion there probably is a spiritual world anyway... but again I don’t claim it as fact as I have no evidence to back it up just as atheists have no evidence to back up non existence..


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Interestingly, How do you Atheists explain Mediums claims etc and people who talk to spirits?

    How do you explain ouiji boards etc?

    whats to explain?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    For those who believe in reincarnation and our spirit living on, In your view would we know and remember out past lives at any point or forget this life forever once this body dies?

    No I don't believe we will remember our past lives at all and we will forget this period of our consciousness and everything that occurred in it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    I had a read of the thread and will address a few points. To the guy who was threatening hell on people who don’t believe in Jesus, well that’s just ridiculous. I don’t understand the arrogant attitude of overly religious people. Sure if you were born in india, you wouldn’t be feeling the same way... very close minded! Also look at all the priests who worshipped Jesus and the horrible crimes they committed. Would turn anyone away from religion.
    I like to think religion isn’t entirely true as I don’t like the threatening nature of any of them.

    For those who believe in reincarnation and our spirit living on, In your view would we know and remember out past lives at any point or forget this life forever once this body dies?
    Interestingly, How do you Atheists explain Mediums claims etc and people who talk to spirits? I know nobody has come back from the dead but maybe they simply cannot communicate with us as we can’t with them. Maybe only mediums can?
    How do you explain ouiji boards etc?
    In my opinion there probably is a spiritual world anyway... but again I don’t claim it as fact as I have no evidence to back it up just as atheists have no evidence to back up non existence..
    I've personally never got this - if a political leader turned out to be a pedophile and corrupt, and aided and abetted by other politicians etc. it would not put me off the concept and idea of democracy. There have been some evil musicians, but it does not put me off the concept of music.


    I could understand (but not necessarily agree) with it resulting in loads of Catholics becoming protestants, but that has not happened.


    Personally I don't think it has had much of an effect on the "faith" of those who actually had "faith", rather the scandals have ended the social obligation to go to Mass so we have instead seen a massive drop off of those who did not really have much true "faith" to begin with.

    It would of course put people off looking into that religion (which might be what you mean)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,840 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Why no 'Hell' option?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭enfield


    I really did not want to get involved with people who are snapping at your heels when you voice an opinion that gives them something to get annoyed with, so here it is. I am nearly 70, ws in the amry and at this age things are going south with all the disintegration of the body that age entails. I spent years going through the different religions looking for the meaning of life. Catholicism, nah, Christianity yes indeed by by Jesus rules. just be good and dont judge. You dont nee churches or temples. to insure you are looked after when you die. It is not far away and I rlish the experience. It is something totally new, and you only do it once. Everyone who ever lived went there or are going there (except Eliiijah, but that's another story) and there is not a damn thing you can do about it. So when the time comes I am ready, what is coming, I dont know but I will take that ride facing it and enjoy the wonderment, whatever it may be and after it is over.....who the **** knows there is but it will be something totally new. I dont need a priest, I am good to go.
    Be good ( funnily I found over the years it is easier to be good when you are not poor) and dont judge, and whatever is coming you are ready for and you will be a good person.
    Thats it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭sallyanne12


    whats to explain?

    Well ouiji boards are Dangerous things presumably because there’s truth to them... mediums certainly believe their abilities/gifts


  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭sallyanne12


    I don’t think the results here would reflect the results of say the whole of ireland... I just think the atheist thread would attract well a lot more atheists. In fact seemingly a large percentage of people believe in an afterlife... even more than non believers


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,206 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Ouija boards are about as dangerous as ghost trains or halloween parties, you are only in danger from your own imagination.

    Mediums believe in themselves? Well they are not likely to make any money if they don't convince people - and sometimes themselves - that they have some sort of ability.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I don’t think the results here would reflect the results of say the whole of ireland... I just think the atheist thread would attract well a lot more atheists. In fact seemingly a large percentage of people believe in an afterlife... even more than non believers

    But 'Atheist' simply means 'does not believe in the existence of god(s)'. That's it.
    It does not mean 'does not believe in an afterlife' or, indeed any other 'does not believe xxxx' one might assume. There is no attached philosophy/ belief system/tenets.

    The Buddha did not believe in a creator god but certainly believed in an afterlife.

    What the varied results demonstrate is that with a forum of Atheists and Agnostics there is variety when it comes to 'beliefs' and philosophies around what happens after death ranging from the absolutest certainty 'there is nothing' to the 'Some kind of afterlife/energy transmutes into xxxx/reincarnation' via 'Dunno, not bovvered'.

    I found the results interesting but pretty much in line with what I expected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭sallyanne12


    looksee wrote: »
    Ouija boards are about as dangerous as ghost trains or halloween parties, you are only in danger from your own imagination.

    Mediums believe in themselves? Well they are not likely to make any money if they don't convince people - and sometimes themselves - that they have some sort of ability.

    Perhaps you are right but my uncle is a medium and while I’ve always been skeptical, he doesn’t do it for a living and he’s done readings on family members so why would he deceive his own family. He didn’t make money off it. I certainly believe he believes but whether or not it’s real well never know


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,712 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Perhaps you are right but my uncle is a medium
    i'm usually a medium too but in some italian brands i'm a large.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    looksee wrote: »
    Ouija boards are about as dangerous as ghost trains or halloween parties, you are only in danger from your own imagination.

    Mediums believe in themselves? Well they are not likely to make any money if they don't convince people - and sometimes themselves - that they have some sort of ability.

    I know a lot of Atheists who wouldn't go near a Quija board or even walk the woods in the dark accompanied by a torch, or stay in a supposedly haunted house on their own for a night.

    Funnily enough I'm agnostic and I embrace all that spooky stuff and aint afraid of it.
    I love all that stuff that goes bump in the night.
    Horror's, ghost stories and legends etc

    I suggest you go to a house near Corofin in Co Clare for a night bring a comfortable sleeping bag, a Quija board, a photography tripod and an attachment for a mobile phone and have this on a loop

    https://youtu.be/6H3UiwU1N5I

    playing in the background from a WiFi speaker.
    Bose has great sound for orchestral music.

    Stay the night see how your imagination will challenge your courage and strength to get through the evening... candle light for more athmosphere...

    And do the Quija board by yourself and now and again record how you're feeling through the night and let us know how you're getting on ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    How do you explain ouiji boards etc?

    Autonomic muscle response mostly. Ouija boards are just one of a number of simple tricks that rely on this concept. One of the users posting on this forum is in fact into magic, illusion, mentalism, hypnotism and more. And he does the "floating table" trick at parties if you ask him nicely. It's amazing to watch too. A number of people rest their fingers lightly on a table and suddenly the "spirits" will move the table around the room. He can even "talk" to these "spirits" and cause the table to move in directions of his bidding.

    And ALL of it relies solely on the barely discernible muscle responses in the fingers of the people who are actually moving the table without knowing it. And their being suggestible to his words while he is pretending to talk to spirits.

    When you see a trick like that at work, suddenly Ouija boards are not all that magical after all as they are the same thing on a slightly smaller scale.
    Interestingly, How do you Atheists explain Mediums claims etc and people who talk to spirits?

    The same way I explain people who claim homeopathy works, or that they were abducted by aliens. I explain it by pointing out people constantly claim ALL KINDS of things. And until they substantiate their claims I treat them all as having equal credibility. None. Zilch. Zero. Nadda. Nichts. Bugger all. Diddly Squat.

    The issue is, in a world full of millions of people making any number of nonsense claims... why would you arbitrarily elevate a small handful of them above the rest as if they are somehow more credible? What methodology of selection is one using to do this?
    why would he deceive his own family. He didn’t make money off it.

    I have on occasion heard people try to claim that a medium, spiritual healer, or some other such charlatan not charging money somehow lends to their credibility. I do not buy it. So to speak.

    Financial gain is not the only reward in life. Look at GAA players as a random example? How much are they paid these days? Last time I checked a few years ago they were paid nothing at all. Is it still the case? Yet the NON financial benefits they garnered were significant. Social status. Sex appeal. Skipping queues. Medical Privileges. Not putting their hands in their pockets on a night out. And much more.

    People doing anything, from sport to charlatan escapades and everything in between can get all kinds of benefits other than cash. So I do not put much stock in thinking not charging for such services lends the person in question any credibility at all.
    I certainly believe he believes

    Possibly. There are many examples in our world of people who believe their own nonsense. Sometimes the well meaning support of those around them helps to perpetuate their own delusions.

    I can think of no more shocking an example than that of Yanagi Ryuken. A supposed master of Aikido who purported himself capable of defeating multiple combatants through the sheer power of chi, without even being required to touch them!

    And if you watch a video of his combats you see why. It becomes painfully obvious to everyone, except the deluded old man himself, that the people training against him are literally throwing themselves to the ground.

    This narrative in his head, supported by the likely well meaning actions of those around him, deluded this little old man into delusions of self grandeur and power beyond normal humans. Until the day of course with full confidence he strolled into a competition of combat against an ACTUAL trained fighter.

    The result of this I could link you a video to, but I doubt anyone here has the stomach to watch a defenceless old man being punched repeatedly in the face over and over again. But I am happy to show videos if you want of him training with his powers against his students, and then what happened when he fought a real fighter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    nthclare wrote: »
    I know a lot of Atheists who wouldn't go near a Quija board or even walk the woods in the dark accompanied by a torch, or stay in a supposedly haunted house on their own for a night.

    I have worked in a lot of atheist organisations from Atheist Ireland to Atheist Germany to Humanists UK to Atheist Alliance International. And many others. I have met many atheists. I suspect more than you ever will, many times over. And I have to say I have not met a single one who expressed any concern with approaching or using a board game. So I have honestly no idea which atheists YOU imagine you are meeting. To be honest, I simply do not buy your anecdote at all.

    As for walking in woods and staying in weird houses.... that's hardly relevant. It has nothing to do with anything being discussed here. Rather we have evolved over many 1000s of years to feel uneasy and defensive and skittish under certain contexts and conditions. Nothing to do with spirits. Nothing to do with after lives. Nothing to do with ghosts. Just simple biological prudence.

    All that said, I have myself been in weird empty houses and forests on a number of occasions. For a number of reasons. Some of them drug related. Some of them sex/girl related. And some of them simply to be alone and find good conditions to observe the stars. Generally I had no fears at all. Least of all for anything super or para normal.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,712 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    nthclare wrote: »
    I know a lot of Atheists who wouldn't ... walk the woods in the dark accompanied by a torch, or stay in a supposedly haunted house on their own for a night.
    i don't think i know anyone who has tried a ouija board, but what has being scared of going for a walk in the woods in the dark got to do with atheism?
    and regarding supposedly haunted houses, linked to the above, maybe there are things your brain associates with being scared, which would make anyone scared, but which some people associate with the idea of a haunting?


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