General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

Potential Underachiever

Lads at 5 a side always flapping their arms about trying to shield the ball, got many a rap to the face, its annoying and sore, but nothing you can do about it. I think Mane was anticiapting more contact coming from Tierney so was sort of trying to out strength him, but when nothing came his way then it looked a lot worse than was intended.

Liamalone

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

The more I watch that Mane elbow the more I can't get over how that's not a red.

They've been given plenty of times.

Yeah, he looks for the incoming player and leave towards him with his elbow pointed at the face. Seen reds given for less. Dirty action.

gimli2112

Well these things even out, after being wrongly sent off against City in 2017 he avoided being wrongly sent off yesterday.
In my humble opinion.

Shanotheslayer

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

Lads at 5 a side always flapping their arms about trying to shield the ball, got many a rap to the face, its annoying and sore, but nothing you can do about it. I think Mane was anticiapting more contact coming from Tierney so was sort of trying to out strength him, but when nothing came his way then it looked a lot worse than was intended.

I don't understand. That's like saying if a Referee gets a decision wrong. Ah well I played up in Phoenix Park and the referee was shyte so it happens.

There doesn't need to be intent to be a red card from what I'm aware of.

I find it very hard to believe that so many people are quick to dismiss it as a red but if David Luiz came in like that on Salah I'm sure people would have a slightly different view ( Not saying you are one, more generally speaking)

murpho999

Seriously if people want Mane sent off for having his elbow out and touching a player's shoulder then the game just won't be worth watching.

It was a yellow at most.

The amount of times people call for cards in games these days is ridiculous.

People seem to want yellow cards with every free kick an forget that a free kick is also a punishment.

Mitch Connor

murpho999 wrote: »

w cards with every free kick an forget that a free kick is also a punishment.

This is something I would love to change in football.

If the refs deems you made a proper attempt at the ball (and it wasn't a dangerous tackle) - free kick, no card.
If you deliberately hack an opponent down or pull them back (the cynical stopping a counter attack tactical fouls) - immediate yellow card. Don't care if it is your first foul. Deliberate foul should be a yellow, immediately.

Essentially, I would draw a line between trying to play the game and cheating. I think cards should be for dangerous play and cheating. You can foul a player without it being dangerous, malicious or deliberately cynical.

DVDM93

Probably best to let it go lads, ye will drive yerselves mad.

Watching it on repeat won't change anything but in saying that I'd forgive Villa, Everton & Sheffield fans for thinking more with their hearts than their heads in that if a straight red was given he'd have been suspended for those 3 games respectively.

Even Arsenal fans as they are obviously thinking with their hearts here as Mane stayed on the pitch to score a goal & put in the Man of the Match performance that he did.

The referee had a look at it l, VAR had a look at it, both correctly made the decision that it did not warrant a red card.

The initial contact is made with Tierney'a shoulder, you can see that clearly here & you can see Mane point to the shoulder several times after the fact to highlight that point also.

If anything, Mane did very well to protect himself & shield the ball like he did.

Well done Mane, well done referee & well done VAR, an excellent performance by all 3 parties last night.

https://twitter.com/SkySportsPL/status/1310657255629615108?s=20

Shanotheslayer

Looking forward to the future reaction when it happens against Liverpool

This is it

Only seeing it for the first time in that video above. I'd call it a definite yellow and would consider him lucky to have stayed on the pitch. Stick your elbow out like that and it's your responsibility as to where that elbow makes contact with another player. Shoulder to shoulder is fair game, elbow to shoulder/neck isn't IMO.

This is it

DVDM93 wrote: »

Probably best to let it go lads, ye will drive yerselves mad.

Watching it on repeat won't change anything but in saying that I'd forgive Villa, Everton & Sheffield fans for thinking more with their hearts than their heads in that if a straight red was given he'd have been suspended for those 3 games respectively.

Even Arsenal fans as they are obviously thinking with their hearts here as Mane stayed on the pitch to score a goal & put in the Man of the Match performance that he did.

The referee had a look at it l, VAR had a look at it, both correctly made the decision that it did not warrant a red card.

The initial contact is made with Tierney'a shoulder, you can see that clearly here & you can see Mane point to the shoulder several times after the fact to highlight that point also.

If anything, Mane did very well to protect himself & shield the ball like he did.

Well done Mane, well done referee & well done VAR, an excellent performance by all 3 parties last night.

https://twitter.com/SkySportsPL/status/1310657255629615108?s=20

I'm not a fan of any of those clubs and having watched the video above I'd count Mane lucky to have stayed on the pitch. Makes no odds where initial contact is made, it brushes off the shoulder and ends up making contact with the neck/face.

eigrod

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

The more I watch that Mane elbow the more I can't get over how that's not a red.

They've been given plenty of times.

Matic did it aswell at the weekend and got a yellow (at least I think it was a yellow). Both could’ve been red card offences in my opinion.

murpho999

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Looking forward to the future reaction when it happens against Liverpool

But nothing warranting a red card happened so the same thing will happen.

murpho999

This is it wrote: »

I'm not a fan of any of those clubs and having watched the video above I'd count Mane lucky to have stayed on the pitch. Makes no odds where initial contact is made, it brushes off the shoulder and ends up making contact with the neck/face.

A red card because of any contact with the face/neck, regardless of intent, force used.

Really, he did not lunge into his face or neck hit his shoulder and yellow card was correct.

I'd also say Tierney made a bigger deal of it too and knew what he was doing.

Do people want this to turn into a non-contact sport?

The more I watch it, I think a yellow is harsh tbh.

Cookiemunster

eigrod wrote: »

Matic did it aswell at the weekend and got a yellow (at least I think it was a yellow). Both could’ve been red card offences in my opinion.

From what I can remember Matic didn't swing an elbow. He went to hold off a Connolly with his hand, but is a foot taller than him, so he caught him in the face. He got booked, but it was never close to being a red.

DM_7

Mane deviates his run and uses his arm to block/impede an opponent - so it was a foul.

It then depends on if the ref regards it as careless, reckless or excessive. Looks more reckless than excessive imo.

It was a foul for sure. Nobody is disputing that.

Tierney clutching his face

DM_7

gimli2112 wrote: »

Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close

are refs ignoring this bit or do they have a different definition of close? The Dier and Lindelof penalties had the players in close proximity surely?

Sorry to come back to this rule, the rule as written is confusing.

Is it that the player close exemption only applies if a player has their hands by their side or is falling?

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

It is an offence if a player:

- deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
- scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
- after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
- scores in the opponents’ goal
- creates a goal-scoring opportunity

- touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
- the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
- the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

- directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
- directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
- if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
- when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body

Mitch Connor

DM_7 wrote: »

Sorry to come back to this rule, the rule as written is confusing.

Is it that the player close exemption only applies if a player has their hands by their side or is falling?

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

I think the key piece is at the end. Arm at your side, not making your body bigger.

If your arm is out away from a natural standing position, it will be an offence. If the arm is by your side, maybe not (without deliberate movement)

gimli2112

This is the link I got from google DM_7

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct#:~:text=For%20the%20purposes%20of%20determining,the%20bottom%20of%20the%20armpit.&text=after%20the%20ball%20has%20touched,creates%20a%20goal%2Dscoring%20opportunity

ah yeah I see you're referring to the same thing'

I still think

the closeness piece seems to stand on its own so if the ball touches the hand from the boot or head of another player but they are near it shouldn't be an offence


that's my reading of it

2nd edit: I see it now it seems to contradict itself regarding the closeness. who the hell wrote this?

Potential Underachiever

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

I don't understand. That's like saying if a Referee gets a decision wrong. Ah well I played up in Phoenix Park and the referee was shyte so it happens.

There doesn't need to be intent to be a red card from what I'm aware of.

I find it very hard to believe that so many people are quick to dismiss it as a red but if David Luiz came in like that on Salah I'm sure people would have a slightly different view ( Not saying you are one, more generally speaking)

Just a difference of opinion I guess Shano, I genuinely would not have expected a red for that, Liverpool player or not and I'm certainly not just saying that because I support them. You're right about the double standards from fans though, I feel I wouldn't be like that though, I'm actually accused of being contrarian in the Liverpool thread just for the sake of it! When I believe I just call things without biased blinkers on.

Shanotheslayer

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

Just a difference of opinion I guess Shano, I genuinely would not have expected a red for that, Liverpool player or not and I'm certainly not just saying that because I support them. You're right about the double standards from fans though, I feel I wouldn't be like that though, I'm actually accused of being contrarian in the Liverpool thread just for the sake of it! When I believe I just call things without biased blinkers on.

Yeh absolutely mate. Fully entitled it. Don't think we'll change opinion's on it so happy to leave it there.

Cheers for the discussion.

El Gato De Negocios

If Mane had have gotten a straight red for that then it would have been overturned on appeal. In real time it looked an awful lot worse than it actually was but we've absolutely seen players get sent off for similar things.

marklazarcovic

i think poch is still being paid by spurs? and if he takes another job he looses that,probably why hes waiting for the right one,with at least the same salary.

Agent Coulson

Poch could have the pick of clubs soon both Manchester clubs, Chelsea, PSG.

I wouldn't be surprised if City or PSG already a deal in place for him to step in when Pep leaves or Tuchel is sacked.

8-10

gimli2112 wrote: »

I think that is a criticism often levelled at him and that's just the way he is. His contribution is goals, goals goals and he's very good at that.

Back on Auba, if he's just there to score goals that's fair enough, but the reality is he's the club captain so has to be judged by more than just goals, particularly in games like last night where you're on the back foot and need a player to drag a performance from those around him.

Some captains do it by simply being the best on the team, others like Henderson, Keane, Terry etc do it by never letting their determination slip and go after every ball and try to get involved in everything.

I don't think Aubameyang was near being their best player last night, he didn't touch the ball much, wasn't involved much, and didn't show the type of passion, determination or commitment that I'd expect from my club captain.

I'm not knocking him as a player, he is quality. But I don't see him as a captain unless he brings more to games like last night. Some players do better without the armband anyway, I'd get him back to focus on scoring.

yourdeadwright

8-10 wrote: »

Back on Auba, if he's just there to score goals that's fair enough, but the reality is he's the club captain so has to be judged by more than just goals, particularly in games like last night where you're on the back foot and need a player to drag a performance from those around him.

Some captains do it by simply being the best on the team, others like Henderson, Keane, Terry etc do it by never letting their determination slip and go after every ball and try to get involved in everything.

I don't think Aubameyang was near being their best player last night, he didn't touch the ball much, wasn't involved much, and didn't show the type of passion, determination or commitment that I'd expect from my club captain.

I'm not knocking him as a player, he is quality. But I don't see him as a captain unless he brings more to games like last night. Some players do better without the armband anyway, I'd get him back to focus on scoring.

After 5 primer league games he has yet to have a shot on target against Liverpool

ShamoBuc

Auba is a great player, no doubt.

Totally anonymous last night though.

Maybe the tactics didn't suit him. Playing out from the keeper, with 4 pool players waiting to pounce, 4 or 5 passes later they either lost possession or went aimlessly long as a result of pressure and lost it on the halfway line. Ridiculous tactics v liverpool. I think only once, did they work it out really well, there's just no point in repeating something that just does not work. Variation is key. Against other teams it looks better and can work but know your opposition. Inviting that type of pressure is suicidal football at Anfield I think.

Agent Coulson

Premier League referees given new interpretation of controversial handball rule

Premier League referees will be told to show greater leniency in handball decisions starting from this coming weekend, report David Ornstein and Matt Slater.

At a Premier League meeting on Tuesday it was agreed that referees will be allowed to apply greater subjectivity within the existing rules, after a conversation with the International Football Association Board (IFAB).............

https://theathletic.com/news/premier-league-handball-law-change/s6b5hot2doEQ

Shanotheslayer

So any decision prior that was controversial is essentially tough sh1t.

Yikes