Lions Tour

lawrencesummers

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

What ability is it, What exactly does he do that makes him a must pick, you are the one who said he has ability but which ability is it? Answer the question please. Because he clearly isn’t good enough he’s just another premiership player totally overhyped by the British media because he impressed against some meh English teams.

He has done more than enough to earn a chance at international level. He is the standout backrow player in games against lot of other international backrow players like faletau and curry. Maybe you don’t watch much premiership rugby, but he is chronically underrated by the national side.

Eddie jones did the same with Brad Barritt. He was well ahead of lot of others but Eddie didn’t like him.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Because if he was as good as you are making out he would be a international player.

He's literally a Lion

Question is...

Is it because he is actually a good player?

Or is it because Warren Gatland is selling out to the media?

I'll leave it up to you

UAEguy2020

OldRio wrote: »

Why should I waste my time to tell you anything. You obviously think you know everything. Life is far to short.

Well...you were the one who said he has brilliant ability, I would have thought if that was the case you would be able to name me one of them...if I was a cynic I would be saying that you haven’t actually watched him play and are just buying into the media hype.

UAEguy2020

bennyl10 wrote: »

Conan hasnt played test rugby all that much more than Simmonds though?

Neither have been continuously selected by their coaches at that level

Conan has largely been injured which has harmed his selection chances, he scored a try against England afew weeks ago and stood out at the highest level, where was Simmonds?

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

I've had a think about it UAEguy, and on second thoughts I think you're right.

I think Warren Gatland, with...
20+ years coaching experience
3 Premiership titles
1 Heineken Cup
4 Six Nations Championships (3 of which Grand Slams)
2 RWC Semi-Finals appearances
A series win in Australia for the Lions
A series draw in NZ

... has decided now. Now is the time he must bow down to the media.

Ah that old chest nut

UAEguy2020

Interested Observer wrote: »

Because Eddie Jones. He's a quality player, and this is a ridiculous discussion.

Wait so people on here are saying he should be picked because Gatland knows what he’s doing and has a great record but then say he doesn’t get picked for England because of EJ who’s arguably done more at the highest level...irony much.

Nah that’s a cop out, if he was as good as he’s been hyped he would be in the England squad, yeah maybe not getting selected but a player this hyped would be atleast making the EPS squad if it was justified.

UAEguy2020

lawrencesummers wrote: »

He has done more than enough to earn a chance at international level. He is the standout backrow player in games against lot of other international backrow players like faletau and curry. Maybe you don’t watch much premiership rugby, but he is chronically underrated by the national side.

Eddie jones did the same with Brad Barritt. He was well ahead of lot of others but Eddie didn’t like him.

Obviously hasn’t done enough, there are always a heap of players hyped to the top by the media in the premiership who don’t get selected because they can’t see to understand that there is a significant gap between the two standards and sadly this is one player who’s slipped through and made the lions selection.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

He's literally a Lion

Question is...

Is it because he is actually a good player?

Or is it because Warren Gatland is selling out to the media?

I'll leave it up to you

He isn’t a Lion until he’s capped against SA which he won’t.

Both, he’s a good player but not lions standard in the slightest and him getting picked ahead of some of the back rows that impressed in the 6N is a disgrace.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Ah that old chest nut

Did you change your opinion on Ross Byrne delivering the exact same as Sexton vs England following the 6 Nations win, btw? Just out of interest.

Deusexmachina

TRC10 wrote: »

He's literally a Lion

Question is...

Is it because he is actually a good player?

Or is it because Warren Gatland is selling out to the media?

I'll leave it up to you

Em, he’s not ‘literally a lion’. If he was, he would give away a huge amount of penalties what with all the roaring and biting..

thomond2006

Someone needs to learn how to multi-quote.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

He isn’t a Lion until he’s capped against SA which he won’t.

Both, he’s a good player but not lions standard in the slightest and him getting picked ahead of some of the back rows that impressed in the 6N is a disgrace.

Why would Gatland select anything other than what he feels is the best squad to beat South Africa?

If impressing the media is really what he wants (it's not, but I'll grant you that for arguments sake), surely winning the series is the best way to go about that.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

He isn’t a Lion until he’s capped against SA which he won’t.

Both, he’s a good player but not lions standard in the slightest and him getting picked ahead of some of the back rows that impressed in the 6N is a disgrace.

If you go on a Lions tour you're a Lion. Ok he hasn't travelled just yet but you're just getting into semantics. He'll be a Lion in a few weeks (barring injury).

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

Did you change your opinion on Ross Byrne delivering the exact same as Sexton vs England following the 6 Nations win, btw? Just out of interest.

Nope

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Why would Gatland select anything other than what he feels is the best squad to beat South Africa?

If impressing the media is really what he wants (it's not, but I'll grant you that for arguments sake), surely winning the series is the best way to go about that.

If he was the best why doesn’t Eddie who has a better track record pick him? He’s a token pick to keep the media happy and that’s his only role on this tour outside of the dirt trackers side

Keeping the media inside in the lead up to the series is what it’s for. The media do this all the time with different players and unfortunately they eventually got their wish, took them long enough.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

If you go on a Lions tour you're a Lion. Ok he hasn't travelled just yet but you're just getting into semantics. He'll be a Lion in a few weeks (barring injury).

Really so does that make O’Toole and Irish international? It doesn’t, what makes you a lion is getting into the test side.

He won’t be because he won’t play against SA, he has already served his purpose and now will be nothing more than an extra body for the dirt trackers side.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If he was the best why doesn’t Eddie who has a better track record pick him? He’s a token pick to keep the media happy and that’s his only role on this tour outside of the dirt trackers side

Keeping the media inside in the lead up to the series is what it’s for. The media do this all the time with different players and unfortunately they eventually got their wish, took them long enough.

Eddie isn't infallible. He has gotten many things wrong in the past.

But there's many possible reasons. Maybe Eddie values different attributes in his number 8s. Simmonds is a very different player to the likes of a Billy.V or Nathan Hughes.

There are also many reasons why Simmonds' attributes would be valuable against South Africa. What do him, Faletau and Conan all have in common? Their quick and play in the wide channels. Send a Vunipola or Stander up the middle all day against South Africa and see what happens.

You seem to be taking all of Eddie Jones' decisions as gospel. Yet when Gatland makes a decision that's different, you immediately conclude it's wrong because Eddie thinks different. Why is that?

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Really so does that make O’Toole and Irish international? It doesn’t, what makes you a lion is getting into the test side.

He won’t be because he won’t play against SA, he has already served his purpose and now will be nothing more than an extra body for the dirt trackers side.

Eh no. But that's a false equivalency. He has been in Ireland's squads. We just don't have a name for people who've been in Ireland's squads.

People who go on Lions tours are, and always have been called "Lions".

Rory Best was a Lion in 2013 and 2017

If you play in a test match,that's an added honour and you're a test Lion.

But everyone who plays a game (not a test match) for the Lions is given a number and they're a Lion

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Eddie isn't infallible. He has gotten many things wrong in the past.

But there's many possible reasons. Maybe Eddie values different attributes in his number 8s. Simmonds is a very different player to the likes of a Billy.V or Nathan Hughes.

There are also many reasons why Simmonds' attributes would be valuable against South Africa. What do him, Faletau and Conan all have in common? Their quick and play in the wide channels. Send a Vunipola or Stander up the middle all day against South Africa and see what happens.

You seem to be taking all of Eddie Jones' decisions as gospel. Yet when Gatland makes a decision that's different, you immediately conclude it's wrong because Eddie thinks different. Why is that?

And neither is Gatland,

If Simmonds was a lions level BR he would be making England squads full stop, Ben Earl isn’t very big infact is 13kg lighter but he posses qualities that are important at test level, Simmonds posses qualities good for premiership level but no good at test level against top defenses.

What do they don’t have in common? Conan and Faletau do it at test level and against top defenses, Simmonds does it against Newcastle and Worcester and supposedly that means he’s good enough to do it v SA...


Wait so people on here are taking Garlands decisions as gospel but dismissing EJ? It seems to be narrative setting. If Simmonds was as good as he was made out he would be making England squads, bottom line, bloody Mark Wilson and the likes of Ludlum have been getting picked ahead of him...and people think if he can’t knock those players out of a squad that he’s lions level...give me a break.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Eh no. But that's a false equivalency. He has been in Ireland's squads. We just don't have a name for people who've been in Ireland's squads.

People who go on Lions tours are, and always have been called "Lions".

Rory Best was a Lion in 2013 and 2017

If you play in a test match,that's an added honour and you're a test Lion.

But everyone who plays a game (not a test match) for the Lions is given a number and they're a Lion

No he wasn’t because he didn’t play, he made the tour and that’s it.

If you make the lions you are a lions tourist and if you get in the 23 v SA you are a Lion.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And neither is Gatland,

If Simmonds was a lions level BR he would be making England squads full stop, Ben Earl isn’t very big infact is 13kg lighter but he posses qualities that are important at test level, Simmonds posses qualities good for premiership level but no good at test level against top defenses.

What do they don’t have in common? Conan and Faletau do it at test level and against top defenses, Simmonds does it against Newcastle and Worcester and supposedly that means he’s good enough to do it v SA...


Wait so people on here are taking Garlands decisions as gospel but dismissing EJ? It seems to be narrative setting. If Simmonds was as good as he was made out he would be making England squads, bottom line, bloody Mark Wilson and the likes of Ludlum have been getting picked ahead of him...and people think if he can’t knock those players out of a squad that he’s lions level...give me a break.

He's also done it at the very highest level at the club game. Hence why he won European POTY. He also does it against Saracens, Wasps, Bristol, Quins etc. You're just naming the two poorest teams in the prem thinking it strengthens you're argument, but it just makes you look ignorant and foolish.

Every dog on street can see that Simmonds is an international level player, who isn't picked by Eddie Jones at this moment in time. But it's just one coach. Eddie Jones isn't some all-knowing, all powerful rugby diety. He's just the England coach at this moment in time.

Jones and Gatland are 2 of the greatest coaches of all time. One of them wants Simmonds in his team, the other doesn't. Get over it.

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

No he wasn’t because he didn’t play, he made the tour and that’s it.

If you make the lions you are a lions tourist and if you get in the 23 v SA you are a Lion.

He did play. Rory Best is Lion #793.

That's just a fact.

Arguing with that is the equivalent of arguing that the Earth isn't round

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

He's also done it at the very highest level at the club game. Hence why he won European POTY. He also does it against Saracens, Wasps, Bristol, Quins etc. You're just naming the two poorest teams in the prem thinking it strengthens you're argument, but it just makes you look ignorant and foolish.

Every dog on street can see that Simmonds is an international level player, who isn't picked by Eddie Jones at this moment in time. But it's just one coach. Eddie Jones isn't some all-knowing, all powerful rugby diety. He's just the England coach at this moment in time.

Jones and Gatland are 2 of the greatest coaches of all time. One of them wants Simmonds in his team, the other doesn't. Get over it.



He did play. Rory Best is Lion #793.

That's just a fact.

Arguing with that is the equivalent of arguing that the Earth isn't round

Ahhhhhhh Right so when we slam a pro14 player it’s playing against Zebre and Dragons but when talking about a premiership player it turns into Saracens etc... narrative setting at its finest.

He won POTY last year, not this year. And again if he was as good as he is made out why wasn’t he capped for 3 years?

How can he be an international level player if he doesn’t play international rugby? Like I said impressing against bog standard premiership teams doesn’t make you a test player, plenty of players look impressive at club level and fail to make the step up to test level, if he was as impressive as being made out Jones would have picked him more often and if he didn’t fit the mould as an 8 he would have converted him to a 7 or something like that like he did with Earl. The reason he did so with Earl is because Earl is a test standard back row and Simmonds isn’t, period.

And btw if he’s a so impressive can you tell me one thing he does at an elite level that makes him good enough to bypass the queue of back rows actually playing test rugby and play for the Lions, just one thing as the people above on this forum who say he’s an obvious pick don’t seem to know much about him.

One wants him for the wrong reasons and other doesn’t want him for the right reasons. The big difference is Jones doesn’t give a **** what the media wants and has the balls to back his convictions.

Which country did Best play against? If he didn’t play in a test he isn’t a lions player.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Which country did Best play against? If he didn’t play in a test he isn’t a lions player.

If you're definition of a Lion is different to the official definition, at least have the conviction to say it.

You can't change a definition of a word and then use that definition to suit your narrative. Because then you can say pretty much anything
Rory Best is Lion #793 and will be until the end of time

You may not like that. Or he may no fit your definition of a Lion. That's your problem.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Ahhhhhhh Right so when we slam a pro14 player it’s playing against Zebre and Dragons but when talking about a premiership player it turns into Saracens etc... narrative setting at its finest.

Ok the issue with this , is I could say this

"Tadhg Beirne?? He's only doing it against Italy in the 6 Nations, he shouln't be in the squad"

Yes Italy are in the 6 Nations. Doesn't mean the 6 Nations is bad.

Same thing when you say Simmonds has only been doing it against Worcester and Newcastle in the premiership. You can pick the worst teams in any comp and use it as a stick to beat a player with.

The pro14 is bad, that's why nobody would get picked on pro14 performances alone. But Simmonds has been doing it in the prem which a much higher standard, and also the highest level of club rugby. And even won European POTY. Which has also been won by players such as Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje and Sean Obrien

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

How can he be an international level player if he doesn’t play international rugby?

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

Not all international level players are currently playing international rugby

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

If you're definition of a Lion is different to the official definition, at least have the conviction to say it.

You can't change a definition of a word and then use that definition to suit your narrative. Because then you can say pretty much anything
Rory Best is Lion #793 and will be until the end of time

You may not like that. Or he may no fit your definition of a Lion. That's your problem.

I only count tests as it help prevent mockeries like Sam Simmonds being a lion, if you don’t play in a test you aren’t a lion, end of.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Ok the issue with this , is I could say this

"Tadhg Beirne?? He's only doing it against Italy in the 6 Nations, he shouln't be in the squad"

Yes Italy are in the 6 Nations. Doesn't mean the 6 Nations is bad.

Same thing when you say Simmonds has only been doing it against Worcester and Newcastle in the premiership. You can pick the worst teams in any comp and use it as a stick to beat a player with.

The pro14 is bad, that's why nobody would get picked on pro14 performances alone. But Simmonds has been doing it in the prem which a much higher standard, and also the highest level of club rugby. And even won European POTY. Which has also been won by players such as Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje and Sean Obrien

Doing it against Italy is better than doing it against most of the premiership sides Simmonds would play against.

And the premiership minus the hype isn’t much better hence why none do anything in Europe on a consistent basis which is why Simmonds isn’t picked for England despite being supposedly the best premiership back row player. And again you are basing one award to justify picking a player for the Lions.

Btw I’m still waiting to hear what’s Simmonds spike and what he adds that makes him a must pick.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

Not all international level players are currently playing international rugby

Yes they are, that’s why they play international rugby weather they are on the field or in a squad. Hell sometimes players who aren’t international standard make squads so it’s pretty difficult to be left out of an international squad if you are international standard.

Dave_The_Sheep

Jesus, lads.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I only count tests as it help prevent mockeries like Sam Simmonds being a lion, if you don’t play in a test you aren’t a lion, end of.

I can't say anything to this other than you're just wrong. Rory Best is Lion #793.
Sorry

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Doing it against Italy is better than doing it against most of the premiership sides Simmonds would play against.

And the premiership minus the hype isn’t much better hence why none do anything in Europe on a consistent basis which is why Simmonds isn’t picked for England despite being supposedly the best premiership back row player. And again you are basing one award to justify picking a player for the Lions.

Btw I’m still waiting to hear what’s Simmonds spike and what he adds that makes him a must pick.

Gatland want's fast, ball playing numer 8s in the wide channels because one dimensional players like Vunipola and Stander will get eaten up by SA and Faletau, Conan, Simmonds are by far the best at that.

Eddie Jones wants bruisers like Vunipola and Hughes, which Simmonds isn't. It really is as simple as that. But somehow I can't see you acknowledging that, given that all you seem to want to do is stick your fingers in your ears and shout "la la la not picked by the almighty Eddie Jones la la la la Worcester and Newcastle la la la"

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Yes they are, that’s why they play international rugby weather they are on the field or in a squad. Hell sometimes players who aren’t international standard make squads so it’s pretty difficult to be left out of an international squad if you are international standard.

Again, just not true. Sorry.