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Are there any credible conspiracy theories?

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  • Really?


    So how many Crimeans wanted to secede from Ukraine and return to Russia? Was it a majority?
    Is that not the definition of democracy or is it just pluralism or mob rule or some other epithet?


    And I'm not tabling any conspiracy here. Rather I'm trying to counter one, i.e. that you are trying to sell the inane idea that Russia invaded and gobbled up Crimea the same way that Adolf just decided that the Sudetenland or any other place he wanted was for Deutschland.


    Again, I'm sure the Godwin's Law crew will chime in, but that's their bag.


    DJ comes up with these meaningless "treaties" about border integrity and the respect under law for boundaries. Must be having apoplexy over the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars then if that's so sacrosanct. A bunch of mythical "little green men" in Crimea is a "cause celebre" for rallying yet a NATO army wrecking the richest country in Africa is grand, all under the moronic pretense that the leader gives his men Viagra to rape people.



    Bashar Assad is supposed to be gassing his people. Even though US Special Forces are robbing the oil from the North East of the country and shipping it to Malta.



    The Saudis chop up a guy in Turkey under the connivance of one of their despicable princes/kings to shut him the fcuk up yet you weep for Navalny who I would think is getting a better deal.


    So, there has not been any invasion of Ukraine. There are no Russian bombers about to land in Shannon. Red October is not off the coast of Copenhagen or Aberdeen or Killybegs about to force us all to eat borscht, though not a bad soup.


    Russian invasion.....COP ON!

    Russia landed troops in Crimea to guard over key installations, Putin said they weren't Russian, then later admitted on national TV that they were. A fake "referendum" was held just a weeks later. Treaties were ignored. Only 10 or so world countries actually recognise Crimea as Russian, and they are the usual tinpot suspects, Syria, Venezuela, etc.

    Crimea and Sevastopol were illegally annexed.

    Again, apart from the Kremlin obviously having this all planned, I don't see any conspiracy




  • So is this thread basically ShatterAlan trying to turn a non conspiracy into a conspiracy and then wailing that some conspiracies can be true, look at this thing that happened that I now want to call a conspiracy?




  • I've found that there are several conspiracy theories are entertaining.

    The Paul McCartney is dead theory is one that is entertaining. Complete nonsense but harmless and entertaining.

    Another was that the titanic was involved in an alleged insurance fraud.

    Then there are the conspiracies there were actually true.

    The one that comes to mind is the MK Ultra mind control programme that was run by the CIA. All declassifiied and true.

    Then there are the controversial or dubious ones that you could argue. The like of the JFK or 9\11.

    I believe that it is valid to have concerns or questions about 9\11. Whether it was an inside job or a set up is perhaps stretching it but there is certainly an argument to be made for criminal negligence.





  • The one that comes to mind is the MK Ultra mind control programme that was run by the CIA. All declassifiied and true.

    Absolutely. In fact, conspiracies and collusion happen all the time, you only have to open a newspaper. We have a habit of regularly uncovering them.
    I believe that it is valid to have concerns or questions about 9\11. Whether it was an inside job or a set up is perhaps stretching it but there is certainly an argument to be made for criminal negligence.

    Whenever a terrorist attack is foiled, it's barely news. And whenever one succeeds the first questions asked are surrounding negligence, intelligence failures, protocols and so on.

    Neither are related to 9/11 conspiracy theories which are off in a disjointed fantasy world of their own with no credible evidence




  • astrofool wrote: »
    So is this thread basically ShatterAlan trying to turn a non conspiracy into a conspiracy and then wailing that some conspiracies can be true, look at this thing that happened that I now want to call a conspiracy?


    Are you saying that conspiracies can be true or not true?


    The definition of a conspiracy is one or more people plotting to conduct actions outside the law.

    How can that be true or untrue? I'm not certain what you think a conspiracy is but I will try to shed a little light. We are not talking about outlandish concepts here. We are not talking about magic or impossibilities or paranormal activity. We are talking about a very simple and discernible truth.


    Julius Caesar was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.
    So was Abraham Lincoln, so was Anwar Sadat and Indira Ghandhi and Yitzhak Rabin....<fill in name>.
    That is what a conspiracy IS. It is people teaming up and CONSPIRING.


    Was JFK or RFK killed as a result of a conspiracy? The official narrative says they were killed by lone gunmen with an axe to grind. Maybe, maybe not.



    We have just recently learned that people at Ballymurphy were deliberately killed and the govenment CONSPIRED to cover it up. The UK Government CONSPIRED to whitewash the events and gave tacit, if not, avid consent to have the narrative not only besmirched but hidden.


    So, if you think that something can be hidden and all the while that it is being hidden those who wish to know more can be dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" and THEN when the truth outs like Bloody Sunday or Hillsbourough or Mi Lai you wash it away as a scandal or a "dark chapter" or a "terrible mistake", then you might want to stop calling people nutcase and tinfoil hatters simply because they express skepticism.


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  • astrofool wrote: »
    So is this thread basically ShatterAlan trying to turn a non conspiracy into a conspiracy and then wailing that some conspiracies can be true, look at this thing that happened that I now want to call a conspiracy?

    Isn't that what the thread title is about? Finding real conspiracies.

    My feeling on conspiracies is that they happen all the time. Look at Northern Ireland and the British secret service actions. Now try explaining what is well known here to a brit, and their eyes will roll.

    The stupid conspiracies, like Q, Pizzagate, moon landings fakes, and so on might be a psych op to discredit real conspiracies. But that's a conspiracy theory itself.




  • We have just recently learned that people at Ballymurphy were deliberately killed and the govenment CONSPIRED to cover it up. The UK Government CONSPIRED to whitewash the events and gave tacit, if not, avid consent to have the narrative not only besmirched but hidden.

    There is a certain type of person who will admit that conspiracies have happened in the past but that's it now. All new conspiracy theories are junk. I am not talking about normal skepticism either.

    This is an unfalsifiable position. If some conspiracy is proven, it immediately becomes something about the past and the skeptic knows that while conspiracies have happened in the past, they don't happen now, nor will they in the future.




  • fvp4 wrote: »
    There is a certain type of person who will admit that conspiracies have happened in the past but that's it now. All new conspiracy theories are junk. I am not talking about normal skepticism either.

    As mentioned, conspiracies happen all the time. Simply read the news.

    However most "conspiracies" on this forum are completely made-up false conspiracies with little or no credible evidence. Also, many are from the past (JFK, 9/11, etc)




  • fvp4 wrote: »
    Isn't that what the thread title is about? Finding real conspiracies.

    My feeling on conspiracies is that they happen all the time. Look at Northern Ireland and the British secret service actions. Now try explaining what is well known here to a brit, and their eyes will roll.

    The stupid conspiracies, like Q, Pizzagate, moon landings fakes, and so on might be a psych op to discredit real conspiracies. But that's a conspiracy theory itself.

    No need to invoke another conspiracy, people have always been attracted to nonsense.




  • Dohnjoe wrote: »
    As mentioned, conspiracies happen all the time. Simply read the news.

    However most "conspiracies" on this forum are completely made-up false conspiracies with little or no credible evidence. Also, many are from the past (JFK, 9/11, etc)

    I didn't qualify "this forum" though.


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  • Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Russia landed troops in Crimea to guard over key installations, Putin said they weren't Russian, then later admitted on national TV that they were. A fake "referendum" was held just a weeks later. Treaties were ignored. Only 10 or so world countries actually recognise Crimea as Russian, and they are the usual tinpot suspects, Syria, Venezuela, etc.

    Crimea and Sevastopol were illegally annexed.

    Again, apart from the Kremlin obviously having this all planned, I don't see any conspiracy

    For a while there I thought you are talking about Kosovo.




  • fvp4 wrote: »
    There is a certain type of person who will admit that conspiracies have happened in the past but that's it now. All new conspiracy theories are junk. I am not talking about normal skepticism either.

    This is an unfalsifiable position. If some conspiracy is proven, it immediately becomes something about the past and the skeptic knows that while conspiracies have happened in the past, they don't happen now, nor will they in the future.

    Could not say it any better.
    I would only add - Nothing to see here move on.




  • fvp4 wrote: »
    I didn't qualify "this forum" though.

    It's the same anywhere.

    People who believe in extreme theories use the "conspiracies have happened before" trope on a constant basis. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean it's happening now. Their validators also commonly use the same fallacy.




  • Dohnjoe wrote: »
    It's the same anywhere.

    People who believe in extreme theories use the "conspiracies have happened before" trope on a constant basis. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean it's happening now. Their validators also commonly use the same fallacy.

    Also, it was much easier to get away with stuff in the past. People these days have far more access to data, information, other people, high quality cameras and video recording devices, etc.




  • Dohnjoe wrote: »
    It's the same anywhere.

    People who believe in extreme theories use the "conspiracies have happened before" trope on a constant basis. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean it's happening now. Their validators also commonly use the same fallacy.

    You do not realize or refuse to acknowledge that life is quite fluid. Some things we deemed conspiracy theories turned out to be true and other stuff we thought is a fact was in turn found to be pure conspiracy theory.
    All that is needed is just time.
    Such one sided approach like rejecting everything that does not align with your own world view is more like a faith.
    I would even say that lack of evidence or proof is often hidden behind term you like to use very often - "current consensus".
    Quite a lot of stuff what once was "current consensus" became false, wrong or outright lie. One should be open to possibilities that not everything is just black and white.




  • Also, it was much easier to get away with stuff in the past. People these days have far more access to data, information, other people, high quality cameras and video recording devices, etc.

    With what you described and technological advance it is also quite easier to create better illusion.




  • patnor1011 wrote: »
    With what you described and technological advance it is also quite easier to create better illusion.

    Yeah, and conspiracy theorists are falling for illusions created by others all the time as a result.




  • patnor1011 wrote: »
    You do not realize or refuse to acknowledge that life is quite fluid. Some things we deemed conspiracy theories turned out to be true and other stuff we thought is a fact was in turn found to be pure conspiracy theory.

    Conspiracies happen all the time, literally every day. Do we see them discussed here? no.

    99% of the personal conspiracies put forward on this forum are complete nonsense. I've been here for years, feel free to point out the stuff which turned out to be true that came from users here.

    People use conspiracies that have happened to project their own brand of nonsense.
    All that is needed is just time.
    Such one sided approach like rejecting everything that does not align with your own world view is more like a faith.

    "All that is needed is just time", is literally a faith based argument.

    People with extreme beliefs often operate with a simplistic black/white view of the world, a good/bad notion, and gravitate towards the tinfoil stuff
    I would even say that lack of evidence or proof is often hidden behind term you like to use very often - "current consensus".
    Quite a lot of stuff what once was "current consensus" became false, wrong or outright lie. One should be open to possibilities that not everything is just black and white.

    Consensus answers it for you. If 1000 experts arrive at theory X and 6 arrive at Y, then the most likely current theory, to the best of our knowledge, is X. Emphasis in italics.

    Exceptions are always possible, but they remain exceptions, not systematic.

    However on forums like this, it's like the land of Narnia, in here Y is as likely to be correct, all the scientists who came to X are part of a conspiracy, "science has been wrong in the past", some unrelated conspiracy happened previously, this one scientist on Youtube confirms my bias so all others are incorrect - a never-ending stream of bad logic

    You rarely find this type of systematic nonsense thinking on history or science forums, there's a reason for that. Conspiracy theory forums are black holes for the whole 9 yards: faulty thinking, logical fallacies, "gish gallop", bad sources, empty claims, accusations of "shilling", you name it, it's here




  • patnor1011 wrote: »
    One should be open to possibilities that not everything is just black and white.

    Of course. the problem is, that a lot of people now instantly assume theres a conspiracy and then stick to their guns. EG a mass shooting is a false flag within an hour. We dont even have the death toll or know anything about the shooter - yet its a false flag.




  • The Nal wrote: »
    Of course. the problem is, that a lot of people now instantly assume theres a conspiracy and then stick to their guns. EG a mass shooting is a false flag within an hour. We dont even have the death toll or know anything about the shooter - yet its a false flag.

    Because world is smaller and news travel faster. Like some of recent shootings blamed on white supremacists or police only to turn out complete opposite.
    There is no such thing as credible conspiracy theory as all conspiracy theories are precisely such - conspiracy theories. Until the are not. It usually take some time or some whistleblower.
    I would not search for credible one as when some turns out credible it usually means there is something about it. Some are pretty wild like alien abductions but who knows - these days anything is possible. To be honest when someone is afraid of spiders or heights we do have diagnosis for that. Male can proclaim to be woman and vice versa pretty much anytime they feel like. All that suppose to be perfectly normal yet when someone is thinking they were abducted by aliens or they are afraid of vaccines or blood clots suddenly compassion is out and people are in for full attack, mockery and ridicule.


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  • patnor1011 wrote: »
    Male can proclaim to be woman and vice versa pretty much anytime they feel like. All that suppose to be perfectly normal yet when someone is thinking they were abducted by aliens or they are afraid of vaccines or blood clots suddenly compassion is out and people are in for full attack, mockery and ridicule.

    Lol. Yup. Being Trans is exactly like believing you were abducted by aliens.:rolleyes:




  • patnor1011 wrote: »
    Because world is smaller and news travel faster. Like some of recent shootings blamed on white supremacists or police only to turn out complete opposite.
    There is no such thing as credible conspiracy theory as all conspiracy theories are precisely such - conspiracy theories. Until the are not. It usually take some time or some whistleblower.
    I would not search for credible one as when some turns out credible it usually means there is something about it. Some are pretty wild like alien abductions but who knows - these days anything is possible. To be honest when someone is afraid of spiders or heights we do have diagnosis for that. Male can proclaim to be woman and vice versa pretty much anytime they feel like. All that suppose to be perfectly normal yet when someone is thinking they were abducted by aliens or they are afraid of vaccines or blood clots suddenly compassion is out and people are in for full attack, mockery and ridicule.

    You mean lies, speculation, gossip. And the idea that all opinions are equal, where the onus of proof is no longer on the person making the claim and "theories" need to be proven incorrect




  • You mean lies, speculation, gossip. And the idea that all opinions are equal, where the onus of proof is no longer on the person making the claim and "theories" need to be proven incorrect

    .
    A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.




  • You mean lies, speculation, gossip. And the idea that all opinions are equal, where the onus of proof is no longer on the person making the claim and "theories" need to be proven incorrect

    “Every lie contains truth, and every truth contains a lie”
    Aki Shimizu




  • patnor1011 wrote: »
    “Every lie contains truth, and every truth contains a lie”
    Aki Shimizu

    Read your average conspiracy forum, you'll find it chock full of lies

    Hell just look at the Covid threads on this forum from the last year:

    Masks were part of a conspiracy
    Lockdown was a conspiracy
    It was all a plan to install global Communism
    A plan to install global Fascism
    A plan by "Satan"
    By the NWO
    By the "Elites"
    It was all fake
    It was a plan by governments all over the world to destroy their economies
    and many, many more

    A never-ending stack of lies and made-up fantasies. If enough people fling enough random muck at every major world event, eventually they'll be "right" about something.




  • Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Read your average conspiracy forum, you'll find it chock full of lies

    Hell just look at the Covid threads on this forum from the last year:

    Masks were part of a conspiracy
    Lockdown was a conspiracy
    It was all a plan to install global Communism
    A plan to install global Fascism
    A plan by "Satan"
    By the NWO
    By the "Elites"
    It was all fake
    It was a plan by governments all over the world to destroy their economies
    and many, many more

    A never-ending stack of lies and made-up fantasies. If enough people fling enough random muck at every major world event, eventually they'll be "right" about something.

    Thing is that by listing all of it you can be pretty sure that some of it may turn out to be true. Which one is hard to say, every theory you mentioned do have quite a bit of followers.




  • patnor1011 wrote: »
    Thing is that by listing all of it you can be pretty sure that some of it may turn out to be true. Which one is hard to say, every theory you mentioned do have quite a bit of followers.

    "A broken clock is right twice a day"

    Forget evidence, logic, reason, academia, investigation - a million paranoid deluded people on the internet will eventually guess something that vaguely turns out to be true




  • I have a conspiracy theory!

    99.99999% of all humans.. .. .. are idiots.

    And yes, I include myself in that. I am ugly, dumb and so blunt that I couldn't pop a balloon with a knife, but a hypocrite I am not!




  • Interesting

    Conspiracy theorists lack critical thinking skills: New study


    https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/science/2021/07/25/conspiracy-theorists-lack-critical-thinking/

    The "see other perspectives" point is crucial.

    As is "the desire to be seen as unique and special serves as a motivation for conspiracy theorising."



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  • critical thinking should be thought at school. It’s crazy how many people gobble up nonsense.



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