How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

Geuze

The Unbearables wrote: »

Average class sizes in Ireland is 25. EU average is 20. Id'd say the average in Dublin is closer to 30 as i can never remember my kids in classes less than that size.

We are going to pay a heavy price for under funding our education system in the coming months

We don't underfund it.

We allocate more towards pay.

A typical retired teacher's pension is 700 pw.

We have way too many small schools, with all the extra costs: principal salary, pension, for each small school.

One parish in Sligo, with one village, has five national schools.

alroley

Geuze wrote: »

We don't underfund it.

We allocate more towards pay.

A typical retired teacher's pension is 700 pw.

We have way too many small schools, with all the extra costs: principal salary, pension, for each small school.

One parish in Sligo, with one village, has five national schools.

Oh my god.

Don't worry! They've already sorted that! Take a look at the new pension scheme for teachers that started after 2013.

Also do you know how pensions work? Contributions from the employee throughout their career. I'm paying loads into mine and will still have a **** pension at the end of it.

gnf_ireland

The Unbearables wrote: »

Average class sizes in Ireland is 25. EU average is 20. Id'd say the average in Dublin is closer to 30 as i can never remember my kids in classes less than that size.

In the interest of facts as opposed to opinion, I ran the numbers for Dublin classes off the DES class list data

<20 11.4%
20-24 23.5%
25-29 50.2%
30-34 14.8%
35-39 0.1%

That said, I have to say I am shocked when I see any class size over 35. It is really unacceptable in this day and age

alroley

gnf_ireland wrote: »

In the interest of facts as opposed to opinion, I ran the numbers for Dublin classes off the DES class list data

<20 11.4%
20-24 23.5%
25-29 50.2%
30-34 14.8%
35-39 0.1%

That said, I have to say I am shocked when I see any class size over 35. It is really unacceptable in this day and age

My sister taught over 35 (I think it was 36 or 38) junior infants a few years ago :eek:

She has 35 in her class this year and pretty much all the classes in her school are over 30. She was jealous of a teacher who had a class of 28.

gnf_ireland

khalessi wrote: »

Teachers have acknowledged not everyone pulled their weight on this thread. But the problem was until recently teachers were all tarred with the same stick.

Trying to homeschool children while trying to teach was impossible as children optimun hours are between 9am and 230 after that they are wrecked and when do I have hours. I ended up getting my kids to do book work then go play. Their work suffered as I was online. My weekends were catching up on my kids school work. But it was important that I got it done as I wanted to do well with my job as it is important to me that my students felt supported in this stressful time.

I actually think the reason there has been no plan announced for blended leaning is to keep the schools open, as there is no fall back plan. They wanted the schools open by hook or by crook and a fallback plan with rising numbers would give something for parents and teachers to insist on, kinda like how Ciara Kelly went after the LC. THey will not have a delay on opening for any reason.

To be fair, back in April/May there was very little acknowledgement from teachers that not all were pulling their weight. I accept there was a toxic attitude (probably on both sides) in general on this issue.
I have often thought about this thread after the late John Hume passed away. The polar views and attitudes on parts of this thread made the Garvaghy Road look like a friendly party.

But I am glad the general tone of this has changed in the last few days and that both sides can acknowledge the opinions/positions of the other.

No one said working and home schooling was easy. Most parents found it exceptionally difficult, and those working found it close to impossible. I can assure you, most (if not all) working parents ended up working much longer hours during lockdown, trying to keep everything on the road.

gnf_ireland

alroley wrote: »

My sister taught over 35 (I think it was 36 or 38) junior infants a few years ago :eek:

She has 35 in her class this year and pretty much all the classes in her school are over 30. She was jealous of a teacher who had a class of 28.

All the class sizes for every school in the country is available on the DES website. I was absolutely shocked to see a class size of 45 in there (and hope its an error)

Being honest, 36 junior infants is down to poor admissions within the school and nothing else. There is absolutely no reason for it to happen, as a cut off can be implemented.

KerryConnor

Don't think anyone's denying facts. I work in a large Dublin sch and all classes have between 27 and 30, average about 28 or 29. Tallies with your figures below and is too big in this day and age.

The never ending discussion about how teachers performed mar-june is exhausting. It was never going to go smoothly with zero standardisation and direction from central bodies. I had conversations with different parents about teachers my children had. Some parents were very disappointed and others delighted with same system

gnf_ireland wrote: »

In the interest of facts as opposed to opinion, I ran the numbers for Dublin classes off the DES class list data

<20 11.4%
20-24 23.5%
25-29 50.2%
30-34 14.8%
35-39 0.1%

That said, I have to say I am shocked when I see any class size over 35. It is really unacceptable in this day and age

gnf_ireland

Geuze wrote: »

We don't underfund it.

We allocate more towards pay.

A typical retired teacher's pension is 700 pw.

We have way too many small schools, with all the extra costs: principal salary, pension, for each small school.

One parish in Sligo, with one village, has five national schools.

https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/public-spending-on-education.htm#indicator-chart

As a % of GDP, Ireland spends 2.5% on non-tertiary and 0.6% on tertiary. This is one of the lowest in the OECD. In comparison, the UK spends 3.8% on non-tertiary education.
So yes, I would say Ireland underfunds their education system when compared to the OECD.

Could the money spent be used more efficiently - absolutely. It could first start by taking full control of all schools and buildings and stop trying to outsource the problem to the church. Then it could look to consolidate smaller schools into larger and more efficient ones, with more modern buildings etc, and get some economies of scale. But the same could be said about every aspect of the public service

Scoondal

alroley wrote: »

My sister taught over 35 (I think it was 36 or 38) junior infants a few years ago :eek:

She has 35 in her class this year and pretty much all the classes in her school are over 30. She was jealous of a teacher who had a class of 28.

In my sixth class there were 45 pupils and no SNAs and I turned out fine ... ... eh, well I'm an alcoholic trying to start fights on a forum. phaps yre probly rigt.
Poor me as if anyone cares.
Get on with it. It's not the Warsaw massacre.

alroley

alroley wrote: »

Oh my god.

Don't worry! They've already sorted that! Take a look at the new pension scheme for teachers that started after 2013.

Also do you know how pensions work? Contributions from the employee throughout their career. I'm paying loads into mine and will still have a **** pension at the end of it.

But you will have more than you paid into it. If you get tax relief at 40% and are now 30, you will need to pay an estimated 700+ a month to get a private sector pension that you may be confident would give you 700 per week in retirement

gnf_ireland

KerryConnor wrote: »

The never ending discussion about how teachers performed mar-june is exhausting. It was never going to go smoothly with zero standardisation and direction from central bodies. I had conversations with different parents about teachers my children had. Some parents were very disappointed and others delighted with same system

It may be exhausting, but it is relevant. It is relevant because most people recognise that we could be back in the same situation within a matter of weeks, and it is unacceptable that there has been very little done to address the causes of the issue.

You talk about zero standardisation and zero direction from central bodies. Has this been provided in the meantime, so if we do have to close schools it will be better next time? I accept the last time it was a quick and immediate decision - but the same cannot be said the next time.

I agree lots of people have different expectations in life, and does depend on the situation they are also in. Many teachers on here talk about low engagement rates by students etc. Some parents tried their best to educate their children while in lockdown, others did not do a tap and treated it as an extended holiday.

Snugglebunnies

I finally got a text from my daughters school today. Unfortunately, the message simply said they expected the children any families that had been abroad to have isolated for 2 weeks before returning to school. We still haven't had any contact at all about the reopening plan.

wirelessdude01

gnf_ireland wrote: »

You talk about zero standardisation and zero direction from central bodies. Has this been provided in the meantime, so if we do have to close schools it will be better next time? I accept the last time it was a quick and immediate decision - but the same cannot be said the next time.

LOL, NOPE.

lulublue22

gnf_ireland wrote: »

It may be exhausting, but it is relevant. It is relevant because most people recognise that we could be back in the same situation within a matter of weeks, and it is unacceptable that there has been very little done to address the causes of the issue.

You talk about zero standardisation and zero direction from central bodies. Has this been provided in the meantime, so if we do have to close schools it will be better next time? I accept the last time it was a quick and immediate decision - but the same cannot be said the next time.

I agree lots of people have different expectations in life, and does depend on the situation they are also in. Many teachers on here talk about low engagement rates by students etc. Some parents tried their best to educate their children while in lockdown, others did not do a tap and treated it as an extended holiday.

To date there has been no mention of any other plan from the dep other than a full return to school for all children at the end of August / start of Sep.

alroley

Deleted User wrote: »

But you will have more than you paid into it. If you get tax relief at 40% and are now 30, you will need to pay an estimated 700+ a month to get a private sector pension that you may be confident would give you 700 per week in retirement

As far as I know I won't be getting 700 a week when retired.

I am in my 20s and someone from Cornmarket told me if I retire at 60 my pension will be something like 8k a year. They were trying to sell me AVCs and were probably leaving out something, but still.

Geuze

alroley wrote: »

As far as I know I won't be getting 700 a week when retired.

I am in my 20s and someone from Cornmarket told me if I retire at 60 my pension will be something like 8k a year. They were trying to sell me AVCs and were probably leaving out something, but still.

Off-topic, but the 700 pw is what a typical retired teacher gets now, today.

Yes, the Single PS scheme is less generous.

gnf_ireland

Deleted User wrote: »

But you will have more than you paid into it. If you get tax relief at 40% and are now 30, you will need to pay an estimated 700+ a month to get a private sector pension that you may be confident would give you 700 per week in retirement

A 700 euro (gross) a week pension requires a pension of roughly 1 million euro on retirement (before lump sum payment).

According to the following link https://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/lifecycle/useful-resources/pension-calculator/
to start this at age 30 and retire at 65 (I know the retirement age will be 68 by then), it would cost 1492 per month (gross) or 895 net per month to fund a pension of 36k per annum

But the fundamental difference with the DC pension is there is very little confidence about it, in comparison to a state backed DB pension. So I would be slow to use the word confidence around a private pension in general

KerryConnor

My own kids weren't especially engaged during the period. I think i was one of those under performing parents too! By the time i'd finished my own work while semi supervising them we were all too worn out and just finished up. 2 of my kids are dyslexic so if we just got reading done every day i was happy.

I agree, i hope to god there are plans afoot in DES for standardised, thought through blended learning in case or when schools close again. The thought of attempting to please and engage everyone again in similar circumstances to last time is just awful

gnf_ireland wrote: »

It may be exhausting, but it is relevant. It is relevant because most people recognise that we could be back in the same situation within a matter of weeks, and it is unacceptable that there has been very little done to address the causes of the issue.

You talk about zero standardisation and zero direction from central bodies. Has this been provided in the meantime, so if we do have to close schools it will be better next time? I accept the last time it was a quick and immediate decision - but the same cannot be said the next time.

I agree lots of people have different expectations in life, and does depend on the situation they are also in. Many teachers on here talk about low engagement rates by students etc. Some parents tried their best to educate their children while in lockdown, others did not do a tap and treated it as an extended holiday.

gnf_ireland

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

LOL, NOPE.

And this is why an open discussion on March-June is important. We will be back in the same situation again pretty soon in some manner

And the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result !

gnf_ireland

KerryConnor wrote: »

My own kids weren't especially engaged during the period. I think i was one of those under performing parents too! By the time i'd finished my own work while semi supervising them we were all too worn out and just finished up. 2 of my kids are dyslexic so if we just got reading done every day i was happy.

I agree, i hope to god there are plans afoot in DES for standardised, thought through blended learning in case or when schools close again. The thought of attempting to please and engage everyone again in similar circumstances to last time is just awful

Any parent who was working full time was "under performing". there are simply not enough hours in the day not to be...

But I think teachers and parents alike want the same thing. A structured return to education and less chaos !

wirelessdude01

gnf_ireland wrote: »

And this is why an open discussion on March-June is important. We will be back in the same situation again pretty soon in some manner

And the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result !

The government just don't care once they reach their stated objective of a full return to school. The avalanche of blame for whatever happens after that will be placed firmly at the door of the schools, the principal and BOM will take the brunt of the criticism.

Scoondal

alroley wrote: »

As far as I know I won't be getting 700 a week when retired.

I am in my 20s and someone from Cornmarket told me if I retire at 60 my pension will be something like 8k a year. They were trying to sell me AVCs and were probably leaving out something, but still.

Poor you. That's almost slavery.

brendanwalsh

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/17/us/coronavirus-college-university/index.html

Scoondal

I am 51 and worked every day ( apart from 3 months redundancy in 2004 ) until 14 March 2020. I never had a wage over €500 per week. In 2018 I was earning €10.50 per hour in a security limited area.
I now receive €131 per week on employer's books with no work.
I think teachers earn more than me sitting at home.

alroley

Scoondal wrote: »

I am 51 and worked every day ( apart from 3 months redundancy in 2004 ) until 14 March 2020. I never had a wage over €500 per week. In 2018 I was earning €10.50 per hour in a security limited area.
I now receive €131 per week on employer's books with no work.
I think teachers earn more than me sitting at home.

Why didn't you become a teacher then?

You could be living your best life sitting at home just surrounded by your riches.

Sunday Sunday

Anybody think the set up for secondary sounds a bit like a prison?

Wear masks, no moving, scheduled toilet and breathing breaks, stay in the same room all day long etc etc.

Actually scratch that, prisoner's would have more rights than these poor kids and it wouldn't be tolerated. It's an utter disgrace what they are doing to these kids!

How is this anywhere close to acceptable treatment of children, can we not do better than this?

brendanwalsh

brendanwalsh wrote: »

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/17/us/coronavirus-college-university/index.html

How are 130 cases in a week in a university of 30,000 in a state with nearly 10,000 cases a week relevant to schools in Ireland.

byhookorbycrook

Sunday Sunday wrote: »

Anybody think the set up for secondary sounds a bit like a prison?

Wear masks, no moving, scheduled toilet and breathing breaks, stay in the same room all day long etc etc.

Actually scratch that, prisoner's would have more rights than these poor kids and it wouldn't be tolerated. It's an utter disgrace what they are doing to these kids!

How is this anywhere close to acceptable treatment of children, can we not do better than this?

Who are “ they ?” If you disagree with NPHET advice , you can choose to keep your child at home .

khalessi

Scoondal wrote: »

I am 51 and worked every day ( apart from 3 months redundancy in 2004 ) until 14 March 2020. I never had a wage over €500 per week. In 2018 I was earning €10.50 per hour in a security limited area.
I now receive €131 per week on employer's books with no work.
I think teachers earn more than me sitting at home.

Are you bitter about this? Is there something else you would have liked as a job?

Ray Donovan

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The government just don't care once they reach their stated objective of a full return to school. The avalanche of blame for whatever happens after that will be placed firmly at the door of the schools, the principal and BOM will take the brunt of the criticism.

Most sensible post here in a long time. Norma Foley’s current impression of Where’s Wally just enhances this theory.