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How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)
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Average class sizes in Ireland is 25. EU average is 20. Id'd say the average in Dublin is closer to 30 as i can never remember my kids in classes less than that size.
We are going to pay a heavy price for under funding our education system in the coming months0 -
Sunday Sunday wrote: »We took students on during the lockdown, yes while the whole country was locked down.
Not very responsible but it wasn't my call to make.
What type work was it Sunday Sunday? Was it safe for TY?0 -
First of the Irish experts to recognise ventilation might be an issue with schools reopening?
https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1295434097792372736?s=200 -
First of the Irish experts to recognise ventilation might be an issue with schools reopening?
https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1295434097792372736?s=20
great to see buses safe if zero talking or moving by robot students lol0 -
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First of the Irish experts to recognise ventilation might be an issue with schools reopening?
https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1295434097792372736?s=20
That is why Prof Gabriel whats his name epidemiologist was on Sarah McInerney show this morning saying the children could ear their hats coats and scraves and leave windows open and they could also be taught outside like we did in the 60s apparently. Unbeknownst to him a lot of schools esp. those with prefabs already use the hats scarves coats approach and a lot of schools cannot open windows properly due to health and safety.0 -
That is why Prof Gabriel whats his name epidemiologist was on Sarah McInerney show this morning saying the children could ear their hats coats and scraves and leave windows open and they could also be taught outside like we did in the 60s apparently. Unbeknownst to him a lot of schools esp. those with prefabs already use the hats scarves coats approach and a lot of schools cannot open windows properly due to health and safety.
if they open windows the schools will be closed by october with the whole place coughing and sneezing!!0 -
What type work was it Sunday Sunday? Was it safe for TY?
It was for a fully time 3rd level work placement. I just thought it was wrong given that we were all being told to work from home where possible and only essential workers etc.
Not my choice and not one I'd have made at the height of it either. Wouldn't have considered it safe.
I think work experience and college work placements should be on hold for this year.0 -
teachinggal123 wrote: »Just to be clear ... are you saying that teachers should not use any online platform unless they are guaranteed legal protection against being recorded?
Legal protection too strong a word but discipline procedures need to be clear. Including legal threat. I have seen videos up on YouTube recorded from teachers classes . Recording is an issue0 -
First of the Irish experts to recognise ventilation might be an issue with schools reopening?
https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1295434097792372736?s=20
Jeez you have to laugh - for classroom “one primary speaker and group of listeners”!!!!
Yes because that’s what classrooms are like these days.0 -
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interesting map showing how our covid numbers have been doing in last 2 weeks compared to the rest of Europe
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/biweekly-growth-covid-cases?region=Europe0 -
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Feeling optimistic as both my kids schools are relatively new and all classrooms run along external walls, plenty of windows.0
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Smacruairi wrote: »I wholeheartedly agree GNF. Our discussion 5 months ago is the exact same as now. As a teacher I don't find it good enough, and I wouldn't be happy as a parent (the creche are doing kk..). There was real scope this summer to change the educational paradigm here. Teach kids by subject, not by age, or go online lecture and classes as breakout groups. A million diff options but it seems they were not explored at all, just "get everyone back in the building". Sad really. I'm very disillusioned.
I fully agree that 5 months ago when I last engaged on this thread, we probably did not see eye to eye. As time goes on, especially the situation we find ourselves in now, I imagine lots of teachers are as frustrated as the parents are and as you say becoming disillusioned.
At times, radical steps are needed. Clearly we seemed paralysed to take them0 -
I agree. But online learning should be made to work.
Some schools did it and I've seen it working very well in other countries.
Some Irish schools need a kick up their behind to teach differently. It can be done.
My aunt works in the UAE and she teaches children the same age as mine. They have been fully online since last April (in pairs), and have blended learning in play this year. They do both recorded and live classes and their school management and department have the right to appear on the live classes at any time without notice.
But this is not 100% comparable - this is a private school, with no shortage of devices/connectivity and each family have at least one nanny to support the children with their homework full time. But they made it work for them0 -
Interesting. You can't extrapolate an entire system based on your experience. About a third of our students didn't engage. There was no legal direction given on zoom. I know some schools made it clear a solicitors letter would follow any recordings on social media.
But that protection was not provided to all teachers.
If you quote mark mcsharry you can't expect to be taken seriously.
Remember teachers were trying to homeschool their kids too.
No I cannot extrapolate the entire system based on my experience. But if you look through the thread, especially back at the start - many were in similar situations.
Legal issues can be resolved quickly, if the interest is there to solve it. Other countries managed to handle recordings - why not Ireland. The organiser of the online facility can restrict recordings on the application itself, but yes kids can record on their phones and there is not much that can be done about it other than disciplinary action. No one is asking teachers faces to be on the classes - it could be a presentation where there is a powerpoint being displayed.
Regarding Mark McSharry - why can teachers not accept that not all teachers put in effort in term 3 last year? I know at least 4 companies who have initiated disciplinary procedures against employees due to the lack of effort during the lockdown period. Companies by enlarge were flexible on the hours worked, but they did not accept people not doing their required workload (unless for medical reasons). Yet some did not. I am pretty sure not everyone in either the private or public sectors put in their required effort, but people are not allowed to say it ? Why? This is not a public v private thing - its about a person thing and responsibility to your employer.
Teachers trying to homeschool their own kids is not a reason not to do their jobs. Others were busy doing their jobs and homeschooling their kids as well. I know many couples who were working from 6am to midnight in shifts, balancing childcare and work to try keep all sides going. I fully accept some teachers are parents too, but they have a responsibility to their employer, as well as their children
We can agree to disagree on this - but I firmly believe that the reason blended learning was not announced was because it was so poorly received the last time around. That said, I really hope they have some secret subteam working on that for when things fall apart by mid-October0 -
Deleted User wrote: »What portion of people on here believe that there is sufficient broadband in place that will allow multiple members from the same family conduct lesson online and also permit parents who work from home to also do so? Or what percentage don’t have the income to allow them to install that capacity when available? Or percentage Of kids will not have the parental support to ensure that they are kept on track? Any mass switch to online will just result in a widening of the gap between the inner directed student and those who with the right encouragement can also achieve, not to mention the disadvantaged. And the younger the children the bigger the impact will be with long term issues lingering long after COVID is just another background disease
so because not all children have equal access to broadband and devices this should stop schools from blended learning - so every child is on an equal basis ! I think I have heard it all now.
As for the last line - no one knows the long term effects of COVID. Its been around 6 months. Who knows what the impact on our health will be in 10 years time, if it does not kill us all before then !0 -
gnf_ireland wrote: »No I cannot extrapolate the entire system based on my experience. But if you look through the thread, especially back at the start - many were in similar situations.
Legal issues can be resolved quickly, if the interest is there to solve it. Other countries managed to handle recordings - why not Ireland. The organiser of the online facility can restrict recordings on the application itself, but yes kids can record on their phones and there is not much that can be done about it other than disciplinary action. No one is asking teachers faces to be on the classes - it could be a presentation where there is a powerpoint being displayed.
Regarding Mark McSharry - why can teachers not accept that not all teachers put in effort in term 3 last year? I know at least 4 companies who have initiated disciplinary procedures against employees due to the lack of effort during the lockdown period. Companies by enlarge were flexible on the hours worked, but they did not accept people not doing their required workload (unless for medical reasons). Yet some did not. I am pretty sure not everyone in either the private or public sectors put in their required effort, but people are not allowed to say it ? Why? This is not a public v private thing - its about a person thing and responsibility to your employer.
Teachers trying to homeschool their own kids is not a reason not to do their jobs. Others were busy doing their jobs and homeschooling their kids as well. I know many couples who were working from 6am to midnight in shifts, balancing childcare and work to try keep all sides going. I fully accept some teachers are parents too, but they have a responsibility to their employer, as well as their children
We can agree to disagree on this - but I firmly believe that the reason blended learning was not announced was because it was so poorly received the last time around. That said, I really hope they have some secret subteam working on that for when things fall apart by mid-October
Teachers have acknowledged not everyone pulled their weight on this thread. But the problem was until recently teachers were all tarred with the same stick.
Trying to homeschool children while trying to teach was impossible as children optimun hours are between 9am and 230 after that they are wrecked and when do I have hours. I ended up getting my kids to do book work then go play. Their work suffered as I was online. My weekends were catching up on my kids school work. But it was important that I got it done as I wanted to do well with my job as it is important to me that my students felt supported in this stressful time.
I actually think the reason there has been no plan announced for blended leaning is to keep the schools open, as there is no fall back plan. They wanted the schools open by hook or by crook and a fallback plan with rising numbers would give something for parents and teachers to insist on, kinda like how Ciara Kelly went after the LC. THey will not have a delay on opening for any reason.0 -
lulublue22 wrote: »We take transition year students every year. We won’t be doing so this year.
I doubt any school will take any TY students in this year.0 -
gnf_ireland wrote: »No I cannot extrapolate the entire system based on my experience. But if you look through the thread, especially back at the start - many were in similar situations.
Legal issues can be resolved quickly, if the interest is there to solve it. Other countries managed to handle recordings - why not Ireland. The organiser of the online facility can restrict recordings on the application itself, but yes kids can record on their phones and there is not much that can be done about it other than disciplinary action. No one is asking teachers faces to be on the classes - it could be a presentation where there is a powerpoint being displayed.
Regarding Mark McSharry - why can teachers not accept that not all teachers put in effort in term 3 last year? I know at least 4 companies who have initiated disciplinary procedures against employees due to the lack of effort during the lockdown period. Companies by enlarge were flexible on the hours worked, but they did not accept people not doing their required workload (unless for medical reasons). Yet some did not. I am pretty sure not everyone in either the private or public sectors put in their required effort, but people are not allowed to say it ? Why? This is not a public v private thing - its about a person thing and responsibility to your employer.
Teachers trying to homeschool their own kids is not a reason not to do their jobs. Others were busy doing their jobs and homeschooling their kids as well. I know many couples who were working from 6am to midnight in shifts, balancing childcare and work to try keep all sides going. I fully accept some teachers are parents too, but they have a responsibility to their employer, as well as their children
We can agree to disagree on this - but I firmly believe that the reason blended learning was not announced was because it was so poorly received the last time around. That said, I really hope they have some secret subteam working on that for when things fall apart by mid-October
Thank you for your knowledgable posts.
I was told a month ago on this thread that online classes were in danger from hackers. And every other excuse not to be dynamic in the situation. Even teach children how to be dynamic in an ever changing reality. That would be very educational.0 -
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gnf_ireland wrote: »No I cannot extrapolate the entire system based on my experience. But if you look through the thread, especially back at the start - many were in similar situations.
Legal issues can be resolved quickly, if the interest is there to solve it. Other countries managed to handle recordings - why not Ireland. The organiser of the online facility can restrict recordings on the application itself, but yes kids can record on their phones and there is not much that can be done about it other than disciplinary action. No one is asking teachers faces to be on the classes - it could be a presentation where there is a powerpoint being displayed.
Regarding Mark McSharry - why can teachers not accept that not all teachers put in effort in term 3 last year? I know at least 4 companies who have initiated disciplinary procedures against employees due to the lack of effort during the lockdown period. Companies by enlarge were flexible on the hours worked, but they did not accept people not doing their required workload (unless for medical reasons). Yet some did not. I am pretty sure not everyone in either the private or public sectors put in their required effort, but people are not allowed to say it ? Why? This is not a public v private thing - its about a person thing and responsibility to your employer.
Teachers trying to homeschool their own kids is not a reason not to do their jobs. Others were busy doing their jobs and homeschooling their kids as well. I know many couples who were working from 6am to midnight in shifts, balancing childcare and work to try keep all sides going. I fully accept some teachers are parents too, but they have a responsibility to their employer, as well as their children
We can agree to disagree on this - but I firmly believe that the reason blended learning was not announced was because it was so poorly received the last time around. That said, I really hope they have some secret subteam working on that for when things fall apart by mid-October
I think it cuts both ways - I taught daily up to the last day. From the end of May to the end of June engagement dropped off quite a lot. I also had difficulty with lack of engagement from the outset from about 5 children. We offered online teaching, teaching over daily email for those who couldn’t access online platforms and work via post for those with no internet access. All work submitted was corrected and returned and I was online daily. I also worked around those who couldn’t engage during school hours due to work. I still don’t think that online teaching is an effective means of teaching at primary level but can be adequate if necessary. I think the difficulty arose from the lack of a uniform/ standardised approach. So responses across schools were very different and in some cases they were inadequate. If we are to return to online / blended learning then there needs to be a clear detailed plan from the dep outlining expectations and an acceptable level of engagement.0 -
Thank you for your knowledgable posts.
I was told a month ago on this thread that online classes were in danger from hackers. And every other excuse not to be dynamic in the situation. Even teach children how to be dynamic in an ever changing reality. That would be very educational.
You are a good teacher.lulublue22 wrote: »I think it cuts both ways - I taught daily up to the last day. From the end of May to the end of June engagement dropped off quite a lot. I also had difficulty with lack of engagement from the outset from about 5 children. We offered online teaching, teaching over daily email for those who couldn’t access online platforms and work via post for those with no internet access. All work submitted was corrected and returned and I was online daily. I also worked around those who couldn’t engage during school hours due to work. I still don’t think that online teaching is an effective means of teaching at primary level but can be adequate if necessary. I think the difficulty arose from the lack of a uniform/ standardised approach. So responses across schools were very different and in some cases they were inadequate. If we are to return to online / blended learning then there needs to be a clear detailed plan from the dep outlining expectations and an acceptable level of engagement.
Unfortunately, others are not like you.0 -
You are a good teacher.
Unfortunately, others are not like you.
Tbf all my colleagues were the same. My own children’s teachers were very goid and anyone I know personally also put in the hard graft. I know this is not the reality for some parents and is one of the reasons the dep should have been working on a plan B for online learning to prevent this happening again.0 -
lulublue22 wrote: »I think it cuts both ways - I taught daily up to the last day. From the end of May to the end of June engagement dropped off quite a lot. I also had difficulty with lack of engagement from the outset from about 5 children. We offered online teaching, teaching over daily email for those who couldn’t access online platforms and work via post for those with no internet access. All work submitted was corrected and returned and I was online daily. I also worked around those who couldn’t engage during school hours due to work. I still don’t think that online teaching is an effective means of teaching at primary level but can be adequate if necessary. I think the difficulty arose from the lack of a uniform/ standardised approach. So responses across schools were very different and in some cases they were inadequate. If we are to return to online / blended learning then there needs to be a clear detailed plan from the dep outlining expectations and an acceptable level of engagement.
I found the same. My younger classes (1st - 3rd) had excellent engagement with almost 100% attendance in Zoom classes, work submitted on time. However I did have a few in my older groups that I had to constantly make contact with over no engagement but also give them allowances for what was going on in the world.
If we do end up with online or blended learning again I would feel more comfortable being firmer with low engagement.
There needs to be guidelines so that every school and every teacher is doing the same thing. I worked longer hours than ever during lockdown and I am so sick of people saying things like "6 months paid holidays" and "all teachers did was one email a week". It completely discredits the profession and the majority that worked really hard. This would have never happened if the government had actually issued proper guidelines for schools. They better have some ready to go for next time.0 -
gnf_ireland wrote: »Just to add to this, one can only assume that classrooms will be allocated (at a primary level at least) based on class size and classroom size, so the biggest class will get the biggest classroom etc - and not on the fact that Teacher A has always been in that room so should remain there.
But until schools start communicating with parents and telling them how it is going to work, parents are in the dark. I am sure some schools have, but lots of schools have not yet (for whatever reason)
Our (my kids) primary are doing this. We had our class allocations and then got a note last week that 3rd class swapped with 6th as the 3rd classes only have 21 in each whereas the 6th have up to 28. Usually the 6th get the prefabs out the back but the rooms are smaller so they're putting the small classes out there. Suits me fine as my child is in 3rd class so will be unlikely to even set foot in the main building, except for the hall, which can be accessed directly from the outside.0 -
gnf_ireland wrote: »No I cannot extrapolate the entire system based on my experience. But if you look through the thread, especially back at the start - many were in similar situations.
Legal issues can be resolved quickly, if the interest is there to solve it. Other countries managed to handle recordings - why not Ireland. The organiser of the online facility can restrict recordings on the application itself, but yes kids can record on their phones and there is not much that can be done about it other than disciplinary action. No one is asking teachers faces to be on the classes - it could be a presentation where there is a powerpoint being displayed.
Regarding Mark McSharry - why can teachers not accept that not all teachers put in effort in term 3 last year? I know at least 4 companies who have initiated disciplinary procedures against employees due to the lack of effort during the lockdown period. Companies by enlarge were flexible on the hours worked, but they did not accept people not doing their required workload (unless for medical reasons). Yet some did not. I am pretty sure not everyone in either the private or public sectors put in their required effort, but people are not allowed to say it ? Why? This is not a public v private thing - its about a person thing and responsibility to your employer.
Teachers trying to homeschool their own kids is not a reason not to do their jobs. Others were busy doing their jobs and homeschooling their kids as well. I know many couples who were working from 6am to midnight in shifts, balancing childcare and work to try keep all sides going. I fully accept some teachers are parents too, but they have a responsibility to their employer, as well as their children
We can agree to disagree on this - but I firmly believe that the reason blended learning was not announced was because it was so poorly received the last time around. That said, I really hope they have some secret subteam working on that for when things fall apart by mid-October
You have some fair points but there was a lack of direction on online teaching. Zoom which was the main provider had a pretty useless customer service. I contacted them march . They wrote back July. A lot of teachers reduced to posting here to get technical advice.
Parents often didn't do their job with ensuring their off spring engaged but sure they are always victims? Their two kids ? Usually.
I did a reasonably good job despite SFA direction from anybody.
Working class kids often do FA. Middle class parents often expect bloody miracles!0 -
if they open windows the schools will be closed by october with the whole place coughing and sneezing!!
Coughs and sneezes are not caused by drafts. Can be made worse by drafts, but if people are social distancing and other measures are in place, regular colds will be seriously down also0 -
gnf_ireland wrote: »so because not all children have equal access to broadband and devices this should stop schools from blended learning - so every child is on an equal basis ! I think I have heard it all now.
As for the last line - no one knows the long term effects of COVID. Its been around 6 months. Who knows what the impact on our health will be in 10 years time, if it does not kill us all before then !
The long term effects will be less severe than the long term effects of sars, which is well understood, but more severe than the long term effects of flu. The last line of your post is pure hysteria.
All children have a right to an education and the country has a duty to provide that opportunity to all children0 -
You have some fair points but there was a lack of direction on online teaching. Zoom which was the main provider had a pretty useless customer service. I contacted them march . They wrote back July. A lot of teachers reduced to posting here to get technical advice.
Parents often didn't do their job with ensuring their off spring engaged but sure they are always victims? Their two kids ? Usually.
I did a reasonably good job despite SFA direction from anybody.
Working class kids often do FA. Middle class parents often expect bloody miracles!
Your anger is telling.
I engaged totally with my son's school. for 2 months. After signing-up and logging in to various websites, I found that the learning content that was uploaded was of a very poor quality.0 -
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I found the same. My younger classes (1st - 3rd) had excellent engagement with almost 100% attendance in Zoom classes, work submitted on time. However I did have a few in my older groups that I had to constantly make contact with over no engagement but also give them allowances for what was going on in the world.
If we do end up with online or blended learning again I would feel more comfortable being firmer with low engagement.
There needs to be guidelines so that every school and every teacher is doing the same thing. I worked longer hours than ever during lockdown and I am so sick of people saying things like "6 months paid holidays" and "all teachers did was one email a week". It completely discredits the profession and the majority that worked really hard. This would have never happened if the government had actually issued proper guidelines for schools. They better have some ready to go for next time.
I found online hard going particularly as there was no cut off point as I had some parents working shift and trying to share laptops etc. So I was online during the day and then trying to catch up with those who couldn’t log in during the day. I found it very difficult trying to find the time for my own children’s schooling. I’d much rather be in school. I do think there needs to be a co-ordinated plan. There will be issues of poor connectivity and lack of hardware in homes particularly for those with a number of children. I also think online learning is difficult for parents. At this stage I don’t think there are any easy answers.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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