Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

average_runner

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

According to NPHET's statistical modelling we'll get level 5 regardless in a few weeks time, and it will last longer than it would have, had we implemented it now.

So it's very much a case of "one of these two is right" between NPHET and government.

Things like below won't help


"A gaa player waiting on a covid test result, plays a match and test result comes back positive"

acequion

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

Listening to the radio this morning there are a lot of people not too happy that we haven't gone to level 5 so I would be careful to claim "the people" are saying we have enough - some who are ignorant, selfish or simply dont understand the seriousness of the virus spreading are but people with an understanding of the situation know full well restrictions are necessary and more restrictions than level 3 will likely be required sooner or later.

I'm a FG voter and a big fan of Leo in general but not too happy with his interview last night if Im honest.

No wonder I disagree with you so much. Because I'm no FG supporter but I quite like Leo and really commend him for his honesty last night. What is it with the Irish that we seem to hate anyone deviating from the script! A bit of blunt honesty that nations like the French engage in all the time can be refreshing and clear. Not the constant ambiguity which constantly muddies the waters here. Like I say I'm no FG fan but I really feel that they were handling this crisis reasonably well and things might have gone better without the change of Govt in the middle of it.

For me, it was great to finally hear the government acknowledging the economy and how bad things are. They really need to shout this louder and louder each day. Let people know how desperate the situation is becoming and see how much support there actually is for another lockdown then.

It’s a little bit sad that Claire Byrne and lots of our population act shocked/outraged that we need to prioritise the economy.

The quality of all our lives depends on a strong economy.

OldRio

The playing of the General Population by Politicians during the last 36 hours is utterly sickening. A Global pandemic is in our midst and some have prioritised they own selfish agendas.

John_Rambo

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

Listening to the radio this morning there are a lot of people not too happy that we haven't gone to level 5 so I would be careful to claim "the people" are saying we have enough - some who are ignorant, selfish or simply dont understand the seriousness of the virus spreading are but people with an understanding of the situation know full well restrictions are necessary and more restrictions than level 3 will likely be required sooner or later.

I'm a FG voter and a big fan of Leo in general but not too happy with his interview last night if Im honest.

We can't let the academics make decisions, they've no real practical relevance and only one narrow remit and are there to advice on health matters only. The government governs and has to take in to consideration education, employment and other important things. A lot of politicians have real life experience in business and other professions and are better suited to make decisions like this.

Jizique

acequion wrote: »

No wonder I disagree with you so much. Because I'm no FG supporter but I quite like Leo and really commend him for his honesty last night. What is it with the Irish that we seem to hate anyone deviating from the script! A bit of blunt honesty that nations like the French engage in all the time can be refreshing and clear. Not the constant ambiguity which constantly muddies the waters here. Like I say I'm no FG fan but I really feel that they were handling this crisis reasonably well and things might have gone better without the change of Govt in the middle of it.

It seems to be an Irish trait - nobody likes straight talking, prefer a bit of plámás and then plenty of bitching down the pub later

Stormyteacup

OldRio wrote: »

The playing of the General Population by Politicians during the last 36 hours is utterly sickening. A Global pandemic is in our midst and some have prioritised they own selfish agendas.

Politics, restriction levels, virtue signalling and blaming need to take a back seat now.

Time we took agendas and emotions out this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_Z7Gf1aRE

Already posted but not enough times. This should be shown on RTÉ 6pm & 9pm news.

Those who advocate ‘locking down’ a society by asking the middle classes to work from home on full salary while the lowest paid are thrown to the wolves, regardless of their age, need a good hard look at themselves. Time to wind down the hero complex these good citizens have developed.

A lot of very well argued points in that interview. We are greatly, and possibly irrevocably, damaging those already at a disadvantage - economically, mentally and medically.

All that money wasted when we could have been highlighting those most at risk and putting those billions into safeguarding them properly.
It should compulsory viewing.

The science of herd immunity is completely sound.

We need to be educated about what it actually means, for this and any future pandemic

hynesie08

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

Listening to the radio this morning there are a lot of people not too happy that we haven't gone to level 5 so I would be careful to claim "the people" are saying we have enough - some who are ignorant, selfish or simply dont understand the seriousness of the virus spreading are but people with an understanding of the situation know full well restrictions are necessary and more restrictions than level 3 will likely be required sooner or later.

I'm a FG voter and a big fan of Leo in general but not too happy with his interview last night if Im honest.

Ah yes, morning radio, that well known microcosm of public opinion, very much has its finger on the pulse of the nations opinion.

Adrian Kennedy for Lord mayor of Dublin, Niall Boylan for president, that's what Ireland needs....

crossman47

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Hopefully he’ll go himself but these guys have such a neck and arrogance it’s virtually impossible to shift them. In any other sector if you pulled the stunt he did Sunday night you would be gone

What stunt? He gave advice on medical grounds. The Government decided not to accept it as is their right. It would be a bad scene if medical advisers moderated their views to accommodate politicians. Just look at the US where Trump listens to no advice.

polesheep

Deleted User wrote: »

For me, it was great to finally hear the government acknowledging the economy and how bad things are. They really need to shout this louder and louder each day. Let people know how desperate the situation is becoming and see how much support there actually is for another lockdown then.

It’s a little bit sad that Claire Byrne and lots of our population act shocked/outraged that we need to prioritise the economy.

The quality of all our lives depends on a strong economy.

Sad but not surprising when you consider that most of them receive income rather than generate it.

polesheep

OldRio wrote: »

The playing of the General Population by Politicians during the last 36 hours is utterly sickening. A Global pandemic is in our midst and some have prioritised they own selfish agendas.

By wanting everyone locked down.

bucketybuck

crossman47 wrote: »

What stunt? He gave advice on medical grounds. The Government decided not to accept it as is their right. It would be a bad scene if medical advisers moderated their views to accommodate politicians. Just look at the US where Trump listens to no advice.

You don't think it a stunt that the whole ****ing country knew about Tonys letter before the government did?

Like I said in another thread, if I was getting advice from a friend I would be pretty pissed to find that they had been telling it to everybody in the local pub first.

crossman47

bucketybuck wrote: »

You don't think it a stunt that the whole ****ing country knew about Tonys letter before the government did?

If you believe that, you'll believe anything. This government leaks like a sieve. Leak it and then show everyone how strong we are.

Irish Aris

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

According to NPHET's statistical modelling we'll get level 5 regardless in a few weeks time, and it will last longer than it would have, had we implemented it now.

So it's very much a case of "one of these two is right" between NPHET and government.

Not sure about that.
I think NPHET and Government have different point of views.

NPHET sees things from the somewhat narrower prism of health and safety and based on that they are probably right to recommend a level 5.
The government, on the other hand, have to consider other elements of everyday life in Ireland, including the financial aspect. And in this instance they decided that they will ignore the NPHET recommendation. Nothing to back it up, but I would guess (as many others) that money are running low.

And I think this will be a repeated pattern, not just in Ireland but in other countries. I just came back from 10 days in Greece (I am from there and visited my family) and the situation is quite similar: the equivalent of NPHET pounds the alarm on a daily basis that Greece needs to go to a lockdown again but the messaging that comes out for the government is that the country isn't anywhere near a lockdown and they pull every restriction trick out of the hat instead - reading between the lines I understood that Greece is in a very similar position as Ireland: rather poor public health system and lack of funds, and they just try to find a balance.

There were 2 things that intrigued me from last night's events:
1. For the first time the government completely ignored NPHETs recommendation. It will be very interesting to see what will happen if things don't improve in the next 3 weeks and NPHET recommends again level 5.
2. There were a couple of reports last night where HSE claimed that they haven't been consulted on the issue of capacity. Not sure if this was ever confirmed, if true though it shows that there is a disconnect between the 3 sides (NPHET, HSE and government) and, in my opinion, doesn't reflect very well on NPHET.

froog

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

According to NPHET's statistical modelling we'll get level 5 regardless in a few weeks time, and it will last longer than it would have, had we implemented it now.

So it's very much a case of "one of these two is right" between NPHET and government.

in fairness donnelly for once made a good point. NPHETs models assume no change with current levels of control and compliance in place and with cases rising at the rate they have been. of course things will be bad if we continue as is. but we have higher restrictions now and hopefully more compliance after a good national kick up the hole the last few days. but who knows, there's an awful lot of selfish pricks in this country right now.

polesheep

Irish Aris wrote: »

Not sure about that.
I think NPHET and Government have different point of views.

NPHET sees things from the somewhat narrower prism of health and safety and based on that they are probably right to recommend a level 5.
The government, on the other hand, have to consider other elements of everyday life in Ireland, including the financial aspect. And in this instance they decided that they will ignore the NPHET recommendation. Nothing to back it up, but I would guess (as many others) that money are running low.

And I think this will be a repeated pattern, not just in Ireland but in other countries. I just came back from 10 days in Greece (I am from there and visited my family) and the situation is quite similar: the equivalent of NPHET pounds the alarm on a daily basis that Greece needs to go to a lockdown again but the messaging that comes out for the government is that the country isn't anywhere near a lockdown and they pull every restriction trick out of the hat instead - reading between the lines I understood that Greece is in a very similar position as Ireland: rather poor public health system and lack of funds, and they just try to find a balance.

There were 2 things that intrigued me from last night's events:
1. For the first time the government completely ignored NPHETs recommendation. It will be very interesting to see what will happen if things don't improve in the next 3 weeks and NPHET recommends again level 5.
2. There were a couple of reports last night where HSE claimed that they haven't been consulted on the issue of capacity. Not sure if this was ever confirmed, if true, it shows that there is a disconnect between the 3 sides (NPHET, HSE and government) and, in my opinion, doesn't reflect very well on NPHET.

Doctor Martin Feeley was forced to resign for speaking contrary to the HSE. Therefore, without hesitation, the HSE should be requesting the resignation of those members of NPHET employed by the HSE, for going against the HSE. Once Paul Reid denied what they said, they should have been gone. The same standards should apply to all.

walus

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

According to NPHET's statistical modelling we'll get level 5 regardless in a few weeks time, and it will last longer than it would have, had we implemented it now.

So it's very much a case of "one of these two is right" between NPHET and government.

That is because they are fixated with the R0 factor. Instead they should be looking at the "k" factor - virus dispersion. They modelling is wrong and it will be proven that even a low level of restrictions and backward tracing (not forward) is sufficient to control the virus. It so transpires that 20% of cases are responsible for 80% of transmissions. Look at Sweden. Why are they now having a "second" wave (btw - there is no such thing as second wave)? Surely not because their health system is better...

OldRio

polesheep wrote: »

By wanting everyone locked down.

and you have been played.

walus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Absolutely cant afford it.

They cant afford level 3.

Ireland already has one of the worst job losses in Europe while having the best natural defense against Covid of the whole of Europe.

NPHET really screwed Ireland over, and the sooner those who cant see that have a road to Damascus moment the better

Just a thought, but could this be that if Ireland was to steer away from the groupthink approach of most of EU countries, the rate at which it can borrow money would be much higher? And so by that token it is not health concerns that are the driving factor for this strategy of on/off lockdowns.

polesheep

OldRio wrote: »

and you have been played.

Yes. For about six months. However, I think there are signs now of it stopping.

OldRio

polesheep wrote: »

Yes. For about six months. However, I think there are signs now of it stopping.

You've missed the point. I'll leave it.

Stormyteacup

walus wrote: »

Just a thought, but could this be that if Ireland was to steer away from the groupthink approach of most of EU countries, the rate at which it can borrow money would be much higher? And so by that token it is not health concerns that are the driving factor for this strategy of on/off lockdowns.

Good point - wonder has that been hinted at at EU level. What makes Ireland so special that we can continue to borrow more money than our neighbours because we want our citizens extra locked down? Couldn’t continue indefinitely, EU will expect inroads to be taken to restore economic productivity here.

drunkmonkey

Whatsisname wrote: »

Has everyone forgotton we've had 3 pandemics since the Spanish Flu?

We've about 14 active pandemics at the moment, the flu has never stopped being one.

Pandemic, epidemic diseases..

Chikungunya
Cholera
Crimean-Congo haemorrhagic fever
Ebola virus disease
Hendra virus infection
Influenza (pandemic, seasonal, zoonotic)
Lassa fever
Marburg virus disease
Meningitis
MERS-CoV
Monkeypox
Nipah virus infection
Novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV)
Plague
Rift Valley fever
SARS
Smallpox
Tularaemia
Yellow fever
Zika virus disease

drunkmonkey

The mandatory masks in shops law expired yesterday with threat of jail, I didn't see anywhere it's been renewed, can anyone confirm?

Stormyteacup

polesheep wrote: »

Yes. For about six months. However, I think there are signs now of it stopping.

Thankfully.

Signs of the hysteria being toned down, finally. It will be a delicate operation encouraging people back from institutionalised fear. Optimistic though after yesterday’s decision. Even if level 5 is still a possibility (wrong one imo), at least there appears to be some balance and rational thought in relations with NPHET.

Rrrrrr2

polesheep wrote: »

Sad but not surprising when you consider that most of them receive income rather than generate it.

I have to give Varadkar credit on that. Finally someone in senior position spelled that out. And he didn’t just gloss over it either. He gave those people the respect their livelihoods deserved. Which had been sorely lacking to date

hans aus dtschl

Irish Aris wrote: »

Not sure about that.
I think NPHET and Government have different point of views.

NPHET sees things from the somewhat narrower prism of health and safety and based on that they are probably right to recommend a level 5.
The government, on the other hand, have to consider other elements of everyday life in Ireland, including the financial aspect. And in this instance they decided that they will ignore the NPHET recommendation. Nothing to back it up, but I would guess (as many others) that money are running low.

And I think this will be a repeated pattern, not just in Ireland but in other countries. I just came back from 10 days in Greece (I am from there and visited my family) and the situation is quite similar: the equivalent of NPHET pounds the alarm on a daily basis that Greece needs to go to a lockdown again but the messaging that comes out for the government is that the country isn't anywhere near a lockdown and they pull every restriction trick out of the hat instead - reading between the lines I understood that Greece is in a very similar position as Ireland: rather poor public health system and lack of funds, and they just try to find a balance.

There were 2 things that intrigued me from last night's events:
1. For the first time the government completely ignored NPHETs recommendation. It will be very interesting to see what will happen if things don't improve in the next 3 weeks and NPHET recommends again level 5.
2. There were a couple of reports last night where HSE claimed that they haven't been consulted on the issue of capacity. Not sure if this was ever confirmed, if true though it shows that there is a disconnect between the 3 sides (NPHET, HSE and government) and, in my opinion, doesn't reflect very well on NPHET.

With respect, did you read the letter that was sent to the Government?
It specifically says that if there isn't a Level 5 lockdown for a period of 4 weeks now, and if there is a more gradual approach to the raising of levels, then there will be need for a Level 5 lockdown for a longer period in the near future.

If the government are right and we don't have a Level 5 in a few weeks time, then NPHET were wrong. If NPHET were right and things don't improve over the next few weeks and we see an imposition of Level 5 then the government were wrong.

I am not speculating on who's right or wrong. I'm just saying there appears to be a specific situation where one side has betted the opposite of the other.

drunkmonkey

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

I have to give Varadkar credit on that. Finally someone in senior position spelled that out. And he didn’t just gloss over it either. He gave those people the respect their livelihoods deserved. Which had been sorely lacking to date

He's still been involved in putting a lot of people out of work at the stroke of midnight tonight. Anyone can have sympathy, standing up and calling what's happening wrong takes real courage which he's sadly lacking.

Rrrrrr2

drunkmonkey wrote: »

He's still been involved in putting a lot of people out of work at the stroke of midnight tonight. Anyone can have sympathy, standing up and calling what's happening wrong takes real courage which he's sadly lacking.

Yes it isn’t enough you’re right but coming from the level of fanaticism displayed by Nphet and their cheerleaders this was a major step in the other direction for the first time since March. Hopefully a lot less people than if Nphet had got their way

Rrrrrr2

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Good point - wonder has that been hinted at at EU level. What makes Ireland so special that we can continue to borrow more money than our neighbours because we want our citizens extra locked down? Couldn’t continue indefinitely, EU will expect inroads to be taken to restore economic productivity here.

Donohoe's input was fairly telling alright- it's clear the money isn't there for Level 5