Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

stringed theory

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The EU is not a nation state therefore it's ambassadors should not get privileges of sovereign nations..

Why not? I agree that the EU is not a nation State, but your second statement doesn't follow at all.
The EU is a confederation of nation states that exercises sovereignty on their behalf in agreed areas. As an international organization it is unique in its authority and it deserves to be treated in a unique manner. There is nothing new (or "creeping") about this. The status of the Union's diplomatic corps derives from the Lisbon Treaty of 2007 and is accepted by the more than 140 countries that receive Union ambassadors.

Kermit.de.frog

Hurrache wrote: »

Wether you like it or not, EU diplomacy does represent you, and that's not going to change.

Lovely. That's it in a nut shell. :rolleyes:

And they don't.

Integration has gone far enough. I say that as someone who does not want to see conflict in Europe again because I don't see any other way countries maintain their sovereignty the way things are drifting.

We have an EU now. Let's just keep it that way and not burn the house down.

Jizique

We have an EU now. Let's just keep it that way and not burn the house down.[/quote]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1352160085775151104
Looks like there will be no equivalence for financial services

yagan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Lovely. That's it in a nut shell. :rolleyes:

And they don't.

Integration has gone far enough. I say that as someone who does not want to see conflict in Europe again because I don't see any other way countries maintain their sovereignty the way things are drifting.

We have an EU now. Let's just keep it that way and not burn the house down.

One massive plus of Brexit is that it's now showing the benefits of membership as the UK struggles with the consequences of populism, and the Trump era shows the downside of federalism.

An adaptive evolving club is the best course, and all the tank boys who want a USA II will just have to remain disappointed.

ilovesmybrick

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Integration has gone far enough. I say that as someone who does not want to see conflict in Europe again because I don't see any other way countries maintain their sovereignty the way things are drifting.

We have an EU now. Let's just keep it that way and not burn the house down.

I'd happily see more integration. The EU has gone beyond a peace project a long time ago, it is now more focused on closer integration and understanding between states, which is a derivative of the initial peace project. As an Irish person, from what I can see, the EU has been predominantly a great project for Ireland to be involved in and, as an Irish citizen living abroad, I would like closer integration that encourages more migration between states.

After Brexit the benefits became aboundantly clear when I began to see the issues my English (and they were all English) co-workers realised what they were facing in terms of their residency, taxation, and insurance requirements, and several of these individuals hadn't lived in the UK for over twenty years. They also began to realise that the problems many US citizens faced on retirement in EU countries would impact upon them, and living in Austria these are not insubstantial. For example, as non-EU citizens there are differentiations in how maternity, social security, and retirement benefits affect them that were not fully understood nor engaged with by the UK. Bilateral agreements can help somewhat, but those are at the discretion of the state-excercising their sovereignty..and I have to say, Brexit is treated as a joke in this country. There are few historic trading links and it is mostly reduced to a by-line of 'look what they're doing now'. A bilateral deal with the UK is not high on their priorities, and that will be the same for many EU countries. The UK focuses on France, Germany, Spain, Belgium (and sometimes Ireland), but there are far more countries that have less invested in the process than the Atlantic EU countries.

Sam Russell

Henry Kissinger (US secretary of State 1973 1977) was always frustrated by the absence of an EEC/EU diplomats/Ambassador. 'When I want to speak to Europe, who do I call?' was his plaintiff cry.

Ambassadors are a matter of convenience for the host state, where contact can be convenient, and disputes vented at full force to a civil servant who cannot shout back.

There can be no upside to refusing diplomatic status, as the Americans found.

The UK Gov are in a spin over Brexit and Covid - which explains the constant need for U turns.

Junkyard Tom

Might be overthinking it but it's almost as if there's a scorched-earth-policy by the British Government and it's not to make life difficult for the EU but any future British government that would seek to repair the damage.

Professor Moriarty

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Might be overthinking it but it's almost as if there's a scorched-earth-policy by the British Government and it's not to make life difficult for the EU but any future British government that would seek to repair the damage.

As if by magic...Operation Bleach.

"Johnson orders ‘Operation Bleach’ to ‘cleanse’ British law of EU references. The prime minister has asked civil servants to scrap references to the EU from tens of thousands of laws in a bid to stop Labour reversing Brexit after the next election."

J Mysterio

Hurrache wrote: »

Similar arose a while ago regarding the arts industry and entry to Europe for bands etc. A bit of he said she said but the EU did make an offer a good while ago which the UK didn't take up and it descended into bit of an argument which seemed that while the UK wanted one thing, they weren't going to reciprocate.

A bunch of musicians signed a letter to the UK government yesterday but the funniest thing about it was that Roger Daltrey was a signatory. The same brexiter Daltrey during an interview prior to Brexit said “As if we didn’t tour Europe before the ****ing EU, oh, give it up!”.

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1351827701708054528

This stuff is so dissapointing. Really would rather not have heard from them. I love the Who('s music).

Equally, Van Morrisson. Terrific talent, but arrogant, obnoxious, ignorant.

fly_agaric

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Again you're not taking it in. I am not "anti-EU".

I don't even have an issue with the currency (apart from the fact some members should not be in it).

I have a big issue with creeping nationhood as I said which is beyond where we are now.

If I thought it stopped here - i'd have no issue.

I took it in alright, but did not take it at face value.
There is nothing in this news story that is "beyond where we are now" or anything new at all really. As I've a feeling you know, the EU has had these ambassadors as well as a "President" and an EU "Foreign Minister" for many years now.
The fact of the Euro currency area + the ECB bond buying currently propping up our Coronavirus response which you are okay with is ironically IMO a much larger signifier of getting more like a "state" with the passage of time.

The news here is post Brexit UK delivering a petty insult to make their point (similar to what Trump did, birds of a feather and all that) and try and damage the EU. You agree with it because, as I said, you don't really like the EU as it is now, let alone what you fear it could become in future.

When it is attacked by the current UK government who have IMO nothing but contempt for and ill will to Ireland, you applaud it.
So you're "I'm not really anti-EU" claim is a little bit dishonest.
You like to see the EU "fail" publically, or for it to be belittled like that by the UK government.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Just to be clear. I am Irish. I am proud to be Irish. I am proud of my country.

The EU, or anywhere else, will never be my country. Brussels will never be my capital. EU foreign diplomatic corps will never represent me. I will never support an EU army, I will never give my allegiance to a federal country called the EU etc etc.

They are among my red lines as an Irish citizen.

You may have different red lines, that's your perogative.

As posted already they [an EU foreign diplomatic corps] do already represent you to some extent given Ireland is an EU member state even if you don't agree with it or like it.

I'm Irish too, holding many opposite views to you (but I do want Dublin as my capital for the moment and idea of EU "armies" doesn't appeal but I'm confident we won't be forced to participate). Are you trying to set yourself up as the true patriot and wave a flag in my face because of your fears about the EUs future? That's not nice. Some nasty people in this country behave that way.

Sam Russell

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

As if by magic...Operation Bleach.

"Johnson orders ‘Operation Bleach’ to ‘cleanse’ British law of EU references. The prime minister has asked civil servants to scrap references to the EU from tens of thousands of laws in a bid to stop Labour reversing Brexit after the next election."

Johnson should have a word with Joe Biden, who i 24 hours has signed about 27 executive orders removing much of his predecessors executive orders that did much damage to he USA's reputation around the world.

How long would it take the incoming Labour Gov to reverse all this. Is he going to shred the laws as they are now so there is no record of the past versions?

Expect a U turn fairy soon once the amount of civil servant time is costed.

This type of project is normally described as spin - you go one way, then U turn and go back the other way, back to where you were, but just a bit dizzy.

Professor Moriarty

Sam Russell wrote: »

Johnson should have a word with Joe Biden, who i 24 hours has signed about 27 executive orders removing much of his predecessors executive orders that did much damage to he USA's reputation around the world.

How long would it take the incoming Labour Gov to reverse all this. Is he going to shred the laws as they are now so there is no record of the past versions?

Expect a U turn fairy soon once the amount of civil servant time is costed.

This type of project is normally described as spin - you go one way, then U turn and go back the other way, back to where you were, but just a bit dizzy.

I would think that this is something that will be implemented. It's totemic for Brexiteers as it erases all references to the EU from government regulations. Just another example of Brexiteer hatred for all things EU.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is he going to shred the laws as they are now so there is no record of the past versions?

The UK is damn good at this, I was trying to find some early-mid 19th Century laws and the only entries available online are for the few subsections not repealed or replaced - the rest are in textbooks for £££.

Those that apply to Ireland from that era are generally on the Government website FOC

Kermit.de.frog

fly_agaric wrote: »

I'm Irish too, holding many opposite views to you (but I do want Dublin as my capital for the moment and idea of EU "armies" doesn't appeal but I'm confident we won't be forced to participate). Are you trying to set yourself up as the true patriot and wave a flag in my face because of your fears about the EUs future? That's not nice. Some nasty people in this country behave that way.

I am very moderate and pro EU but I will never accept a country called Europe.

It's that simple.

I'm very moderate in my political views and centrist btw being either FF or FG typically.

So trying to paint others in to corners because you disagree won't wash. I haven't done that with you you'll notice.

Donald Trump

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The UK has the same status as a sovereign nation state as Ireland.

It's constituent regions are not nation states by definition. The UK is the nation state.

Unless they vote for independence.

There is a separate Northern Ireland Bureau in Washington DC. It is diplomatic mission located away from the official British Embassy.



A man who was director of NIB until recently, passed away about a week ago:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/a-great-ambassador-for-ni-tributes-to-norman-houston-39962698.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/northern-ireland-representative-to-us-norman-houston-dies-in-belfast-1.4456707





You can waffle on about semantics, but when it suits them, the Brits don't seem to mind having separate representatives.............there isn't a Welsh Bureau or a Scottish Bureau. Welsh/Scottish/English is British in the US. Ireland is Irish there though. And it has a lot of pull. Which is why they have an NIB there and nowhere else!

Sam Russell

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I would think that this is something that will be implemented. It's totemic for Brexiteers as it erases all references to the EU from government regulations. Just another example of Brexiteer hatred for all things EU.

Biden's predecessor went on a similar rampage, his hatred for Obama so consumed him. However, in just 24 hours, Biden has already reversed the most odious of them.

They should be careful of unintended consequences.

Kermit.de.frog

Donald Trump wrote: »

There is a separate Northern Ireland Bureau in Washington DC. It is diplomatic mission located away from the official British Embassy.



A man who was director of NIB until recently, passed away about a week ago:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/a-great-ambassador-for-ni-tributes-to-norman-houston-39962698.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/northern-ireland-representative-to-us-norman-houston-dies-in-belfast-1.4456707





You can waffle on about semantics, but when it suits them, the Brits don't seem to mind having separate representatives.............there isn't a Welsh Bureau or a Scottish Bureau. Welsh/Scottish/English is British in the US. Ireland is Irish there though. And it has a lot of pull. Which is why they have an NIB there and nowhere else!

...

Professor Moriarty

Sam Russell wrote: »

Biden's predecessor went on a similar rampage, his hatred for Obama so consumed him. However, in just 24 hours, Biden has already reversed the most odious of them.

They should be careful of unintended consequences.

This is very different though. Johnson has tasked 20 civil servants to erase all references to an economic and political union of which they were a full member for 47 years. That's a lot of laws and regulations. For comparison, it would be like Biden erasing certain laws and regulations implemented by every president back as far as Nixon.

Donald Trump

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

...

What can't you understand?


There is a defacto NI ambassador to the US as well as a UK ambassador to the US.


Only country where that is the case for the UK. Anywhere else they just have the UK ambassador/embassy.

Kermit.de.frog

Donald Trump wrote: »

What can't you understand?


There is a defacto NI ambassador to the US as well as a UK ambassador to the US.


Only country where that is the case for the UK. Anywhere else they just have the UK ambassador/embassy.

Nope. It's not an ambassador. A mission is a good bit below that rank.

Plenty of regions around the world have missions.

Scotland has one here.

P.S sorry I mistook what you typed, hence the three dots.

Sam Russell

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This is very different though. Johnson has tasked 20 civil servants to erase all references to an economic and political union of which they were a full member for 47 years. That's a lot of laws and regulations. For comparison, it would be like Biden erasing certain laws and regulations implemented by every president back as far as Nixon.

Yes, but the original texts will remain and reversing it can be simple.

Such pettiness.

Following the establishment of this country, there was a push to rename all the streets in the city to be Irish names in Irish. That did not last long as nobody could find their way around. The old signs were placed back again - no harm done.

Donald Trump

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Nope. It's not an ambassador. A mission is a good bit below that rank.

Plenty of regions around the world have missions.

Scotland has one here.

P.S sorry I mistook what you typed, hence the three dots.

Nope. In US the NIB has defacto responsibility for issues pertaining to the North. Technically it is a branch of the British Embassy (to keep Unionists happy) but it is located in the downtown area away from the large British Embassy up on Mass. Ave.

This is done in the US, and only in the US, because of the green vote there. British are quite happy to break their own rules it seems!

Professor Moriarty

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes, but the original texts will remain and reversing it can be simple.

Such pettiness.

Following the establishment of this country, there was a push to rename all the streets in the city to be Irish names in Irish. That did not last long as nobody could find their way around. The old signs were placed back again - no harm done.

Perhaps. The idea is to make it extremely difficult to match up future regualtions and laws again. But it is very petty. Regarding street names, the vast majority of streets and roads have both Irish and English names. They didn't revert to the old signs.

Podge_irl

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I am very moderate and pro EU but I will never accept a country called Europe.

It's that simple.

Well fine. To also be very simple - there isn't one so you've nothing to worry about.

fly_agaric

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So trying to paint others in to corners because you disagree won't wash. I haven't done that with you you'll notice.

It is not just because you disagree.
It is such a feature of the right Eurosceptic parties here, that appeal to patriotism ("I am Irish. I am proud to be Irish. I am proud of my country" vs...fill in the blanks yourself for the opposite view on the issue under discussion.).

I presume it is the same for the nationalist right in every single EU country.
I don't know you other than from a few posts I've read today & in the past, so I'll admit that was personal + uncalled for.

joeysoap

Was Britain, who have an ambassador in Washington happy enough to have an EU ambassador to USA when he/she represented the EU there (when they were in the EU?)

Strazdas

All of this suggests the Brexit overlords have zero understanding of the art of diplomacy. Even if you don't like someone, you don't go out of your way to provoke or insult them.

It's quite baffling. It seems everything they do is aimed at pleasing the xenophobes and racists, as if UKIP is running the country.

timetogo1

Strazdas wrote: »

All of this suggests the Brexit overlords have zero understanding of the art of diplomacy. Even if you don't like someone, you don't go out of your way to provoke or insult them.

It's quite baffling. It seems everything they do is aimed at pleasing the xenophobes and racists, as if UKIP is running the country.

Could say the same thing about nearly any time over the last 4 years. How has it worked out for them so far?

declanflynn

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The UK has the same status as a sovereign nation state as Ireland.

It's constituent regions are not nation states by definition. The UK is the nation state.

Unless they vote for independence.

Only in the Eurovision song contest

lawred2

sondagefaux wrote: »

Northern Europe is also catching up with the USA in per capita GDP. Spot which one of the Big Three in Europe is not doing so well...

What is Denmark doing right?