Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

ArmaniJeanss

Another mistake people make is thinking of a music 'tour' with a pre-planned set of dates where you can work out the visa/permit logistics of everything in advance.

Lots of lowly bands would just have a couple of gigs with the hope of it turning into a tour. Few gigs in Helsinki, someone says they can get you another slot a ferry ride away in Tallinn, that leads to Riga, then Poland and before you know it you're 17th act down the card on the Friday of a summer festival in Germany.
The flexibility to do this is obviously no longer there post Brexit.

20silkcut

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

They look more to NATO than the EU.

The Ukrainian situation in 2013/14 was very much driven by a desire to be closer to the EU.

Kermit.de.frog

The EU is not a nation state therefore it's ambassadors should not get privileges of sovereign nations.

British government is absolutely right on this one.

I really resent this attempt at treating the EU as some overarching sovereign nation state by the back door.

Nobody voted to give up our status as a sovereign nation state.

Nobody voted to make Brussels our capital either.

They should be treated as an international organisation.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The EU is not a nation state therefore it's ambassadors should not get privileges of sovereign nations.

British government is absolutely right on this one.

I really resent this attempt at treating the EU as some overarching sovereign nation state by the back door.

Nobody voted to give up our status as a sovereign nation state.

Nobody voted to make Brussels our capital either.

They should be treated as international organisation.

What about the British themselves?

The problem the BRitish have is that the very things they rail against are the very things they insist others must do for them.

But regardless of the rights or wrongs, the whole point of Brexit was that the UK felt that the EU had taken sovereignty. Seems a bit double faced to now claim that the EU doesn't, after all, have any rights.

fly_agaric

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is one of those frustrating news snippets - big on optics and very light on detail! What are they complaining about? And what are they looking for?

Seems to be some more about their complaints here.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/brexit-checks-will-bring-trade-to-standstill-and-threaten-economy-irish-truckers-say-1.4464291

The hauliers have asked the EU Commission president to intervene “to address serious and concerning obstructions” to trade from Ireland from the imposition of border and customs controls associated with Brexit.
The group has asked EU to dispatch a “senior special representative of the EU Commission” to assist the Irish authorities coordinate their response to Brexit and “to take measures needed to address their current shortcomings”, suggesting Mr Barnier carry out this task.

Alot of it seems complete pie in the sky (calling on the Ursula von der Leyen/Barnier/"someone" to come down from on high to sort it all out for them), given UK-Ireland now have a brand new Customs border. Things can't go back to the way they were before, which was what was best for their business.

There's a few other more concrete complaints mentioned about Customs IT systems going down, and a lack of link up between state bodies involved (maybe delaying getting their checks/paperwork done or something?) - kinds of things you'd probably expect with something new.

schmoo2k

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The EU is not a nation state therefore it's ambassadors should not get privileges of sovereign nations.

British government is absolutely right on this one.

I really resent this attempt at treating the EU as some overarching sovereign nation state by the back door.

Nobody voted to give up our status as a sovereign nation state.

Nobody voted to make Brussels our capital either.

They should be treated as an international organisation.

In your eyes which is the Sovreign Nation:
1. UK
2. GB
3. England / Scotland / Wales / NI

Kermit.de.frog

Leroy42 wrote: »

What about the British themselves?

The problem the BRitish have is that the very things they rail against are the very things they insist others must do for them.

But regardless of the rights or wrongs, the whole point of Brexit was that the UK felt that the EU had taken sovereignty. Seems a bit double faced to now claim that the EU doesn't, after all, have any rights.

That's UK politics. You can't be "sovereign equals" with something not sovereign.

Two faced or not the EU is not a nation state.

Paranoid Bob

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The EU is not a nation state therefore it's ambassadors should not get privileges of sovereign nations.

British government is absolutely right on this one.

I really resent this attempt at treating the EU as some overarching sovereign nation state by the back door.

Nobody voted to give up our status as a sovereign nation state.

Nobody voted to make Brussels our capital either.

They should be treated as an international organisation.

Fair point.

Counterpoint: 142 countries in the world disagree. Up to the end of last year it seems that 143 countries disagreed; the UK supported the position that EU representatives should be given status and protection under the Vienna convention.

This is UK exceptionalism. As has been mentioned elsewhere the US tried this approach during the last administration and quickly reversed the decision.

Kermit.de.frog

schmoo2k wrote: »

In your eyes which is the Sovreign Nation:
1. UK
2. GB
3. England / Scotland / Wales / NI

The UK has the same status as a sovereign nation state as Ireland.

It's constituent regions are not nation states by definition. The UK is the nation state.

Unless they vote for independence.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The UK has the same status as a sovereign nation state as Ireland.

It's constituent regions are not nation states by definition. The UK is the nation state.

Unless they vote for independence.

But Kermit, the UK were part of the EU that requested that nations treat them as a pooling of sovereignty.

Why do you thin the UK has suddenly so against treating them as such?

It has nothing to be with legality or sovereignty, this is just another attempt at the UK attempting to show how strong they are.

In the overall scheme of things it is irrelevant, I really couldn't care less how they treat them. But it is petty, illjudged and only going to lead to further acrimony, at a time when the UK are actually asking the EU to ease up on some of the restrictions they voted for.

At the very least, they should be a little smart about and pick their battles.

schmoo2k

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The UK has the same status as a sovereign nation state as Ireland.

It's constituent regions are not nation states by definition. The UK is the nation state.

Unless they vote for independence.

Yup - I wonder why they have different sports teams (different thread I know)...

Hurrache

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The EU is not a nation state therefore it's ambassadors should not get privileges of sovereign nations.

They aren't. And outside of the Tory party, you seem to be the only one to think so. In fact even some Tories think it's wrong.
Regardless, Johnson didn't even last a half day without reversing the decision.

Kermit.de.frog

schmoo2k wrote: »

Yup - I wonder why they have different sports teams (different thread I know)...

Independence is hard earned everywhere.

Either you have a nation state or you don't.

Scotland, Wales, NI are regions of the UK. They are not "nations". The nation is the UK until the Scots grow a pair and vote to run their own affairs in my opinion.

fly_agaric

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Nobody voted to give up our status as a sovereign nation state.

Nobody voted to make Brussels our capital either.

They should be treated as an international organisation.

And none of those things have happened.
However the EU is a bit more than your typical "international organistation".
The British still have an ambassador to it I think - maybe they should take him home now? Put their money where their mouth is on this?
We did vote for Lisbon Treaty even if someone of your ilk probably doesn't count the do-over or ballots of people like me who voted "yes" as being valid.

A Dub in Glasgo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Independence is hard earned everywhere.

Either you have a nation state or you don't.

Scotland, Wales, NI are regions of the UK. They are not "nations". The nation is the UK until the Scots grow a pair and vote to run their own affairs in my opinion.

You missed out England but as everyone knows UK = England anyway

Kermit.de.frog

fly_agaric wrote: »

And none of those things have happened.
However the EU is a bit more than your typical "international organistation".

The British still have an ambassador to it I think - maybe they should take him home now? Put their money where their mouth is on this?

We did vote for Lisbon Treaty even if someone of your ilk probably doesn't count the do-over or ballots of people like me who voted "yes" as being valid.

Can you point to the passage in the Lisbon treaty where the EU was the new nation state?

If you can't see what is going on then you need to open your eyes. Bit by bit our sovereignty is being removed.

You may think what's the big deal with EU ambassadors? The symbolism leads to reality that soon we won't have our own ambassadors and we get ever closer to an EU superstate.

It's relentless chipping away at our status as a country.

My prediction, if it continues, it will end in tears because now the EU is coming up against core sovereignty and identity of it's members.

Time to say this far and no more in my view.

Kermit.de.frog

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You missed out England but as everyone knows UK = England anyway

Exact same applies to England. England is not a nation state either.

As I said the UK is the nation.

In fact it's English nationalism that drove Brexit...

schmoo2k

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Can you point to the passage in the Lisbon treaty where the EU was the new nation state?

If you can't see what is going on then you need to open eyes. Bit by bit our sovereignty is being removed.

You may think what's the big deal with EU ambassadors? The symbolism leads to reality that soon we won't have our own ambassadors and we get ever closer to an EU superstate.

It's relentless chipping away at our status as a country.

My prediction, if it continues, it will end in tears because now the EU is coming up against core sovereignty and identity of it's members.

Time to say this far and no more in my view.

And this is how some of the states in USA still feel about the federal government!

Kermit.de.frog

schmoo2k wrote: »

And this is how some of the states in USA still feel about the federal government!

The USA is a nation state. It's not the same at all.

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You missed out England but as everyone knows UK = England anyway

I look forward to the region of England playing international rugby/soccer/cricket against other nations.

Kermit is close to trolling, he knows that the EU is more than a organization. Show me another organization that has its own laws and currency and I will agree with him that the EU Ambassador should not be afforded the same status as other nations.

His argument is hurt by this,

EU officials privately accuse the Foreign Office of hypocrisy because when the EU's foreign service - known as the External Action Service - was set up in 2010 as a result of the Lisbon Treaty, the UK signed up to proposals that EU diplomats be granted the "privileges and immunities equivalent to those referred to in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 18 April 1961".

So the UK recognized that the EU is more than just an organization and thus deserved more privileges.

UK and EU in row over bloc's diplomatic status

Kermit.de.frog

Enzokk wrote: »

the EU Ambassador should not be afforded the same status as other nations.

The EU is not a nation.

fly_agaric

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Can you point to the passage in the Lisbon treaty where the EU was the new nation state?

No.

However Lisbon did put in place "outside facing" collective machinery of the EU for dealing with the rest of the world on behalf of member states.
You are so happy to see the British govt. show contempt towards it + applaud this position because it suits your point of view.

Ultimately the UK's actions are not surprising (what else do you expect from their Brexity government but grunts when it comes to relations with the EU) but it damages this country (as a member state) too.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you can't see what is going on then you need to open your eyes. Bit by bit our sovereignty is being removed.

You may think what's the big deal with EU ambassadors? The symbolism leads to reality that soon we won't have our own ambassadors and we get ever closer to an EU superstate.

My eyes are open, I'm okay with it. I voted for it (so far) - quelle horreur!

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

My prediction, if it continues, it will end in tears because now the EU is coming up against core sovereignty and identity of it's members.

Time to say this far and no more in my view.

People have been saying that about the EU since before I was born probably.
As regards your last sentence from what I see you want to roll things back, not say "this far and no more".

Kermit.de.frog

fly_agaric wrote: »

No.

However Lisbon did put in place "outside facing" collective machinery of the EU for dealing with the rest of the world on behalf of member states.
You are so happy to see the British govt. show contempt towards it because it suits your point of view.

Ultimately the UK's actions are not surprising (what else do you expect from a their Brexity government but grunts when it comes to relatations with the EU) but ultimately it damages this country too.



My eyes are open, I'm okay with it. I voted for it (so far) - quelle horreur!



People have been saying that about the EU since before I was born probably.
As regards your last sentence from what I see you want to roll things back, not say "this far and no more".

Firstly - the first country to leave has left. It won't be the last.

Secondly - like others you jump to the automatic conclusion that I am anti EU.

Nothing could be further from the truth. What I want is an end to creeping nationhood at EU level.

I do mean it. This far and no further.

That is my view and I make no apology for it.

fly_agaric

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Firstly - the first country to leave has left. It won't be the last.

Secondly - like others you jump to the automatic conclusion that I am anti EU.

Nothing could be further from the truth. What I want is an end to creeping nationhood at EU level.

I do mean it. This far and no further.

That is my view and I make no apology for it.

I haven't engaged with you before really but I have read your posts about the EU, so my conclusion was not automatic or knee jerk.
You are in fact "anti-EU" (in the sense that you already feel "it" has gone way too far) so should just own that.

Sam Russell

schmoo2k wrote: »

In your eyes which is the Sovreign Nation:
1. UK
2. GB
3. England / Scotland / Wales / NI

It is interesting that the name used for a Sovereign Nation is either derived from the name on their postage stamps or the name of their national Football team (soccer).

Now the interesting part. The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland has neither a name of its postage stamps, relying on a profile of its head of state, nor does it have a national football team. The only country in the world to have neither.

No wonder they have problems with sovereignty and exceptionalism. They refer to the various parts of the UK as provinces, principalities, nations, countries, or sometimes regions.

It is not the only example of this inability to identify things. NI is referred to as the six counties or as Ulster. The Good Friday Agreement is referred to as The Belfast Agreement, even though the relevant Minister had not read it when it was central to UK politics at the time. I am sure there are other examples.

A Dub in Glasgo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In fact it's English nationalism that drove Brexit...

Don't we just know it

England is a nation therefore English nationalism is a thing unless you contend that England is not a nation

The UK is the political construct that contains constituent parts and those constituent parts give the UK the sovereignty it has

Kermit.de.frog

fly_agaric wrote: »

I haven't engaged with you before really but I have read your posts about the EU, so my conclusion was not automatic or knee jerk.
You are in fact "anti-EU" (in the sense that you already feel "it" has gone way too far) so should just own that.

Again you're not taking it in. I am not "anti-EU".

I don't even have an issue with the currency (apart from the fact some members should not be in it).

I have a big issue with creeping nationhood as I said which is beyond where we are now.

If I thought it stopped here - i'd have no issue.

Just to be clear. I am Irish. I am proud to be Irish. I am proud of my country.

The EU, or anywhere else, will never be my country. Brussels will never be my capital. EU foreign diplomatic corps will never represent me. I will never support an EU army, I will never give my allegiance to a federal country called the EU etc etc.

They are among my red lines as an Irish citizen.

You may have different red lines, that's your perogative.

yagan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Again you're not taking it in. I am not "anti-EU".

I don't even have an issue with the currency (apart from the fact some members should not be in it).

I have a big issue with creeping nationhood as I said which is beyond where we are now.

If I thought it stopped here - i'd have no issue.

Just to be clear. I am Irish. I am proud to be Irish. I am proud of my country.

The EU, or anywhere else, will never be my country. Brussels will never be my capital. EU foreign diplomatic corps will never represent me. I will never support an EU army, I will never give my allegiance to a federal country called the EU etc etc.

They are among my red lines as an Irish citizen.

You may have different red lines, that's your perogative.

The bottom line is that London has a dedicated ambassador to the EU which is separate to their Belgium embassy so there's no merit to their refusal to recognise an EU counterpart in the UK.

This issue is just a mass distraction from the details, just like fishing was before xmas, and like how Covid is being blamed for trade disruptions between GB and NI.

An Ciarraioch

yagan wrote: »

The bottom line is that London has a dedicated ambassador to the EU which is separate to their Belgium embassy so there's no merit to their refusal to recognise an EU counterpart in the UK.

This issue is just a mass distraction from the details, just like fishing was before xmas, and like how Covid is being blamed for trade disruptions between GB and NI.

Indeed, they also have ambassadors to NATO and the UN. Personally, I'd have no problem with more co-ordination of foreign policy, once it doesn't go into military affairs.

Hurrache

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Firstly - the first country to leave has left. It won't be the last.

Secondly - like others you jump to the automatic conclusion that I am anti EU.

Nothing could be further from the truth. What I want is an end to creeping nationhood at EU level.

I do mean it. This far and no further.

That is my view and I make no apology for it.

Irexit are desperate for attention and numbers, if you're not already a paid up member.

Wether you like it or not, EU diplomacy does represent you, and that's not going to change.