An argument for upgrading the Waterford-Limerick railway(or at least part of it)

Working class heroes

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I don’t understand why ticket office staff actively discouraged the Skulls from buying the timetable. Every single time I went to any IR station from 1979 until they stopped selling it the response ranged from huffing and puffing to reach over for the booklet, to saying “it costs x to buy it, do you still want it?”

What the hell was that all about? Why do they go to the bother of printing a booklet and then refuse to sell a copy to the public?

One of those impenetrable things about living in Ireland, it seems.

My experience suggests this post is nonsense.

Lord Glentoran

Working class heroes wrote: »

My experience suggests this post is nonsense.

No it isn’t. This was my experience. What was yours?

River Suir

Working class heroes wrote: »

My experience suggests this post is nonsense.

Absolutely not. My experience was that the station staff never wanted to sell the full printed timetable in the early 80s; they would hand over the folded leaflet with the InterCity timetable on it and say “thats free, you have to pay 15p for the other one”.

I had to say it was “the other one” I wanted because of the continental timetable at the back of the book.

Working class heroes

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

No it isn’t. This was my experience. What was yours?

The exact opposite. Is that not obvious?

Working class heroes

River Suir wrote: »

Absolutely not. My experience was that the station staff never wanted to sell the full printed timetable in the early 80s; they would hand over the folded leaflet with the InterCity timetable on it and say “thats free, you have to pay 15p for the other one”.

I had to say it was “the other one” I wanted because of the continental timetable at the back of the book.

That’s a bit different now isn’t it.
Sounds like they were trying to do a customer a favour by suggesting a free version first.
It’s been suggested here that there was some kind of mass conspiracy not to sell timetables to customers. As I’ve said, my experience suggests this is nonsense.

end of the road

Working class heroes wrote: »

That’s a bit different now isn’t it.
Sounds like they were trying to do a customer a favour by suggesting a free version first.
It’s been suggested here that there was some kind of mass conspiracy not to sell timetables to customers. As I’ve said, my experience suggests this is nonsense.

it's not different in any way, but is exactly along the lines as the original poster's experience for which he was backing up.
it sounds like he had asked for the paid for timetable first and was handed the free one which didn't have the detail he was looking for instead, rather then simply asking for a timetable and being handed the free one.
it would have been better to tell him the options available upon him asking and then letting him choose which one he wanted so that everyone knew where they stood.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

it's not different in any way, but is exactly along the lines as the original poster's experience for which he was backing up.
it sounds like he had asked for the paid for timetable first and was handed the free one which didn't have the detail he was looking for instead, rather then simply asking for a timetable and being handed the free one.
it would have been better to tell him the options available upon him asking and then letting him choose which one he wanted so that everyone knew where they stood.

Nope, it’s nonsense alright.

Working class heroes

River Suir wrote: »

Your experience. Are you current or former CIE staff?

Firstly, that’s none of your business.
Secondly, as you are implying I may be biased in my posting, I can assure you, I’m not. I’ve said it here before, I have a soft spot for facts. That’s it. No agenda here.

devnull

Guys, can we all stop the snipping at each other.

Speculating on a persons identity on here is not acceptable also and will lead to sanctions.

- Moderator

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

The fact is the 4 train a day service was in place back in 2006 (which connected well with the new hourly Dublin Cork)

It was advertised in south Tipperary, people did use it but nowhere near the numbers required to make any financial sense

You could also commute from Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy, Wexford, Rosslare to Waterford at useful times. It was the best that could be done within the infrastructure limits of the day.

Irish Rail passenger profile in 2006/2007 is very different compared to recent years. High fares, low frequancy service compared to good value, frequancy and relibality today (well excluding Limerick branches).

There is no disputing that this route will always require significent costs to run services unless capital investment happens. Numbers would grow if the scheduled was improved.

sweet_trip

Due to re-open soon i hear.

Del.Monte

sweet_trip wrote: »

Due to re-open soon i hear.

The point is that it might as well stay closed unless a proper is put in place. Pre-Covid there was virtually nobody using the line and operating empty trains is pointless from a financial and environmental point of view.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

https://twitter.com/MarcKC_Green/status/1298669573093445632?s=19

esposito

Del.Monte wrote: »

The point is that it might as well stay closed unless a proper is put in place. Pre-Covid there was virtually nobody using the line and operating empty trains is pointless from a financial and environmental point of view.

I disagree. It is important that the line remains open from 31st August despite the poor service.

TD’s and the public in general need to put serious pressure on Iarnrod Eireann to change and improve the timetable and market/advertise the line properly.

sweet_trip

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MarcKC_Green/status/1298669573093445632?s=19

Get that sorted with a bus to UHW/WIT via the quays and you're laughing.

TheBoyConor

What are the reasons given for the initial suspension of services on the line? Was it Covid?
If so that is bull, because I know that a few km of that line was relaid with concrete sleepers and CWR during the parts of the main covid lockdown where building work was allowed.

It was significant work, old tracks pulled up, trackbed excavated and renewed and the new track put down. Second hand concrete sleepers but brand new rails.

esposito

TheBoyConor wrote: »

What are the reasons given for the initial suspension of services on the line? Was it Covid?
If so that is bull, because I know that a few km of that line was relaid with concrete sleepers and CWR during the parts of the main covid lockdown where building work was allowed.

It was significant work, old tracks pulled up, trackbed excavated and renewed and the new track put down. Second hand concrete sleepers but brand new rails.

That is good news. So we have relaid track, we have enough railcars (22000 class I presume)

All we need now is a robust marketing campaign and constant pressure from TD’s on Iarnrod Eireann and the NTA to improve the frequency ( to at least 4 trains each direction ) and more attractive times.

This CAN happen and if enough stakeholders pile the pressure on the above mentioned enitities I believe this can be achieved.

Jamie2k9

sweet_trip wrote: »

Get that sorted with a bus to UHW/WIT via the quays and you're laughing.

Unlikely, BE already run an 07.00 from Cahir to WIT (08.40 arrival) and return from WIT to Carrick on Suir at 17.20 which stops at bus station to connect with route 55 (17.40) to Limerick.

From Cahir, Clonmel, Carrick-Waterford:
07.00*, 08.30*, 09.30, 10.30, 11.30, 12.30, 13.30, 15.30, 17.30, 18.30, 19.30, 20.10*, 21.30.

From Waterford-Carrick, Clonmel, Cahir:
06.40*, 07.40, 08.40, 09.40, 10.40, 12.40, 14.40, 16.40, 17.40, 17.40 (17.20 ex WIT)* 18.40, 20.50

Clonmel and Carrick to Waterford also get a 13.20*, 14.50*, 17.20*, returning at 11.40*, 13.40*, 16.10*.

* PSO services in addition to regular route 55.

Irish Rial will still have big challanges with a timetable change.

TheBoyConor

But are there the passengers to make it viable?

We need to realise that not all the commuters are going from Cahir or Clonmel towns to Waterford and Limerick city centres. They are coming from those towns, their rural hinterlands and surrounding villages and going to business parks, industrial estates or the outskirts of the cities to their workplaces, or to the colleges. If is very very few people who will want to go from walking distance of the hometown station to within walking distance of the station at the far end, very few indeed.
Why would anyone drive to the station, go on the train, and then somehow get to their destination at the other end. It is far more convenient and faster for people just to stay in the car and go the whole way rather relying to the vagueness of public transport.

We need to realise that we are dealing with small rural towns and small regional cities.

I would like for this line to be used and be busy. But I am also a realist and I know that it is a bit of a lost cause and really will only have pensioners and the odd day tripper on it. I remember so many times, even when it was 4 trains a day, it would be just myself and the ticket checker on the train. Waste of diesel.

esposito

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I would like for this line to be used and be busy. But I am also a realist and I know that it is a bit of a lost cause and really will only have pensioners and the odd day tripper on it. I remember so many times, even when it was 4 trains a day, it would be just myself and the ticket checker on the train. Waste of diesel.

If I was marketing this line I would highlight the following for the people of Limerick,Tipperary and Waterford:

1. Waterford Greenway (becoming very popular)
2. Waterford Crystal
3. Cahir Castle
4. The Glen of Aherlow
5. Waterford IT, University of Limerick, Limerick IT (for students)

Del.Monte

And if CIE/IE were to try and cash in on the greenway they would have to give some thought to accommodating a lot more bikes on the trains. Of course if they hadn't switched away from proper trains to glorified sardine cans this wouldn't be a problem.

esposito

Del.Monte wrote: »

And if CIE/IE were to try and cash in on the greenway they would have to give some thought to accommodating a lot more bikes on the trains. Of course if they hadn't switched away from proper trains to glorified sardine cans this wouldn't be a problem.

But the 22000’s intercity can accommodate bicycles right?
They don’t use the 29000 or 2700 commuter trains on the line do they?

Why did they get rid of the MK 3 carriages, they could have just modified them. They were great.

end of the road

esposito wrote: »

But the 22000’s intercity can accommodate bicycles right?
They don’t use the 29000 or 2700 commuter trains on the line do they?

Why did they get rid of the MK 3 carriages, they could have just modified them. They were great.

2700s are in storage, unlikely to run again i have a feeling.
the 2800s which are other suburban type units similar to the 2600s are based in limerick and operate the lj to waterford line from time to time, probably more then 22000s but that may have changed.

Del.Monte

esposito wrote: »

But the 22000’s intercity can accommodate bicycles right?
They don’t use the 29000 or 2700 commuter trains on the line do they?

Why did they get rid of the MK 3 carriages, they could have just modified them. They were great.

22000s have very limited accommodation for bikes and thus are unsuitable for carrying large numbers of people to visit any greenway.

CIE/IE got rid of the MkIII's because, in time honoured fashion, thought they knew best or their then CEO did. That individual has moved on leaving his legacy to the 'grateful' travelling public. That the MkIII's were clearly beyond their sell by date can be seen on the "Belmond Hibernian" luxury train which consists entirely of former CIE/IE MkIII's.

The old saying that Everybody's Business, is Nobody's Business could have been invented for CIE - don't expect to see any change with this organisation - ever!

TheBoyConor

esposito wrote: »

If I was marketing this line I would highlight the following for the people of Limerick,Tipperary and Waterford:

1. Waterford Greenway (becoming very popular)
2. Waterford Crystal
3. Cahir Castle
4. The Glen of Aherlow
5. Waterford IT, University of Limerick, Limerick IT (for students)

That is fair enough but 1-4 are primarily tourist or leisure places. Very very few of the people living in those areas will be going to any of those 4 places during the week, or even the weekend.
Those are the occasional day trippers I'm talking about.
And how is someone wanting to go to the Glen of Aherlow supposed to get there from tipperary town? Perhaps they will simply walk there to escape from Tipp town - the grimmest, dreariest, most miserable and depressing town in the country.

It might have some modest potential for student traffic on Sunday and Friday evenings if it was marketed heavily and discounted even more.
As for daily commuters to college, the colleges are too far removed from the termini - difficult to get to the college and you'd probably always be missing classes from coming from or to catch the trains. And again, few enough of those daily students are within walk or bike distance from their local station along the line. In the case of WIT and anyone lucky enough to still have a job working in the industrial estates on the cork road they are coming from rural areas and villages all across Tipperary, north waterford and sw kilkenny.
Rather than be arsing around getting daily lifts or driving to the stations, trudging across town or getting busses, being late and getting soaked, the majority will just drive directly because it is easier and probably cheaper - especially since the reality is that most workers and students living in rural areas or rural towns already have cars anyway.

The population served is too small and dispersed. with the ubiquity of cars now, railways need high population density to be able to get trains even half filled.

I maintain my position that the LJ-Waterford line is unlikely to ever see any sort of significant passenger numbers.

I think even if it is heavily promotoed and marketed, I think it won't make much difference as there simply isn't the market there for the service. It just doesn't suit the vast majority of people in the region.

My previous points still stands for the most part.

road_high

Probably been said but the timetable needs to be integrated to connect with the Waterford/Dublin and Limerick Junction services

ohographite

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That is fair enough but 1-4 are primarily tourist or leisure places. Very very few of the people living in those areas will be going to any of those 4 places during the week, or even the weekend.
Those are the occasional day trippers I'm talking about.
And how is someone wanting to go to the Glen of Aherlow supposed to get there from tipperary town? Perhaps they will simply walk there to escape from Tipp town - the grimmest, dreariest, most miserable and depressing town in the country.

It might have some modest potential for student traffic on Sunday and Friday evenings if it was marketed heavily and discounted even more.
As for daily commuters to college, the colleges are too far removed from the termini - difficult to get to the college and you'd probably always be missing classes from coming from or to catch the trains. And again, few enough of those daily students are within walk or bike distance from their local station along the line. In the case of WIT and anyone lucky enough to still have a job working in the industrial estates on the cork road they are coming from rural areas and villages all across Tipperary, north waterford and sw kilkenny.
Rather than be arsing around getting daily lifts or driving to the stations, trudging across town or getting busses, being late and getting soaked, the majority will just drive directly because it is easier and probably cheaper - especially since the reality is that most workers and students living in rural areas or rural towns already have cars anyway.

The population served is too small and dispersed. with the ubiquity of cars now, railways need high population density to be able to get trains even half filled.

I maintain my position that the LJ-Waterford line is unlikely to ever see any sort of significant passenger numbers.

I think even if it is heavily promotoed and marketed, I think it won't make much difference as there simply isn't the market there for the service. It just doesn't suit the vast majority of people in the region.

My previous points still stands for the most part.

Clonmel has a similar population to Sligo, which has a much busier train service than the Waterford-Limerick line.
The Waterford-Limerick line can be used to provide a service from Clonmel(and the other 3 towns on the line) to Dublin, with a change at either Waterford or Limerick Junction.
If services on the line were more frequent (at least 4 a day each way), and arrived at either Waterford or Limerick Junction just before a Dublin-bound train departed (to ensure a quick transfer from train to train) then I am certain there would be significant passenger numbers using it.
If, on top of what I'd suggested, the trains went to and from Limerick city rather than Limerick Junction, I am certain the passenger numbers would be higher still.

If you want the line to be busier but feel that it can't happen, then don't worry, because it is realistic to expect that these changes would substantially increase its passenger numbers.

whisky_galore

Waterford is the one city station that always looks dead any time I happened to stop by. Apart from being remote from the city centre, it's not the faintest bit attractive or inviting from a prospective passenger point of view.

Del.Monte

Waterford station is a fine example of Soviet hospital architecture and as I have asked here before what was/is its purpose given CIE's withdrawal from the South East years ago? It wasn't as bad back in the early 80's when the "Comeragh" bar in the old red brick building offered some escape from the dreary kip that the main building always was.

thomond2006

Cahir is a great day out. Cahir Castle is impressive to see and visit, Swiss Cottage is accessible by a path alongside the golf course (which doesn't appear on a Google Maps search!) and for a small town it has plenty of cafes and restaurants. The train station is a few minutes walk from the main square as well.