An argument for upgrading the Waterford-Limerick railway(or at least part of it)

lostweekend3

Working class heroes wrote: »

Services will be resuming on August 31st

That is fantastic news. Now all we need next is for services to increase to 4 a day... maybe in a few years..

Working class heroes

Del.Monte wrote: »

The point is something was tried in the usual half-assed way that CIE have traditionally gone about things. There was NO promotion of the increased services and I travelled from Enniscorthy on the first day that the service operated and intending passengers for the train were locked outside the station. Fortunately I had the signalman's mobile on my phone and was able to get him down to open the doors - after the the train had pulled in from Arklow. There's no promotion of existing services in the south east (or anywhere else) and now Covid-19 will sound the death knell of some lines with people being urged not to use public transport. The perfect storm.

Which lines?

end of the road

Working class heroes wrote: »

Which lines?

come on now, you know which ones at this stage.

man98

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Irish Rail would rather send a few batches of 22000s off to Hammond Lane rather than let some other private operator get their hands on them.

In Britain there are Community Rail Partnerships which provide some sort of local gauge for what services people seek and when. Obviously they're not running the railway but it's a bit more democratic than the way Iarnród Éireann are running things. I think certain lines would benefit a lot from an offically recognised and proactive community organisation as well as an operator who actually cares about providing a public service in these more rural communities.

IE 222

end of the road wrote: »

come on now, you know which ones at this stage.

Did you think Eamonn Ryan was going to allow a rail line close as minister for transport.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

come on now, you know which ones at this stage.

I wasn’t asking you. You and others thought that the Waterford/lim jnc line was finished so you can forgive me if I don’t take on board your expertise.

goingnowhere

IE 222 wrote: »

Did you think Eamonn Ryan was going to allow a rail line close as minister for transport.

There was a green junior minister in the department when Waterford Rosslare closed so go figure...

TheBoyConor

Del.Monte wrote: »

The point is something was tried in the usual half-assed way that CIE have traditionally gone about things. There was NO promotion of the increased services and I travelled from Enniscorthy on the first day that the service operated and intending passengers for the train were locked outside the station. Fortunately I had the signalman's mobile on my phone and was able to get him down to open the doors - after the the train had pulled in from Arklow. There's no promotion of existing services in the south east (or anywhere else) and now Covid-19 will sound the death knell of some lines with people being urged not to use public transport. The perfect storm.

Typical CIE. "we could run a perfect rail service if it wasn't for all those damn customers getting in the way. Keep em out"

IE 222

goingnowhere wrote: »

There was a green junior minister in the department when Waterford Rosslare closed so go figure...

A junior minister.... The whole country nearly closed down in 2010 if you remember. Pretty sure a few of his senior colleagues had even resigned.

Either way that line had no future especially given the turmoil the country found itself in back then.

Working class heroes

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Typical CIE. "we could run a perfect rail service if it wasn't for all those damn customers getting in the way. Keep em out"

Can I ask who you are quoting please.

TheBoyConor

I'm not quoting anyone in particular. It's just like something they would be thinking.

Inspired by what John Cleese said about Basil Fawlty, saying that was the sort of fella that would claim that he could run the perfect hotel if it wasn't for all the guests getting in the way.

end of the road

Working class heroes wrote: »

I wasn’t asking you. You and others thought that the Waterford/lim jnc line was finished so you can forgive me if I don’t take on board your expertise.

yes we did and with good reason.
thankfully this time we were wrong which is brilliant news.
you think i and others want to be proven correct? no, we don't because it ultimately means an outcome we don't want.

Working class heroes

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'm not quoting anyone in particular. It's just like something they would be thinking.

Inspired by what John Cleese said about Basil Fawlty, saying that was the sort of fella that would claim that he could run the perfect hotel if it wasn't for all the guests getting in the way.

If that’s your opinion then fair enough.
But by placing such opinions in quotation marks is disingenuous and implies a factual statement, which it isn’t.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

yes we did and with good reason.
thankfully this time we were wrong which is brilliant news.
you think i and others want to be proven correct? no, we don't because it ultimately means an outcome we don't want.

That’s some backpedaling and metal gymnastics you’ve got going on there, fair play.

TheBoyConor

Working class heroes wrote: »

If that’s your opinion then fair enough.
But by placing such opinions in quotation marks is disingenuous and implies a factual statement, which it isn’t.

Relax will you. Your attitude on this thread is unnecessarily aggressive.

Working class heroes

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Relax will you. Your attitude on this thread is unnecessarily aggressive.

I just like facts is all.
A lot of unsubstantiated nonsense posted around these parts.

end of the road

Working class heroes wrote: »

That’s some backpedaling and metal gymnastics you’ve got going on there, fair play.

i held a belief based on good reasoning.
the opposite to that belief, which was actually what i wanted to happen, actually happened in the end meaning my original belief was proven incorrect at least this time meaning i'm very happy.
neither backpeddling or gymnastics of any form.

Working class heroes wrote: »

I just like facts is all.
A lot of unsubstantiated nonsense posted around these parts.

or more like, it's reasonable beliefs based on the behaviour of the rail operator both historically and current.
all that needs to happen for us to change our view is for the rail operator to stop treating certain lines and their users badly. give them the same basic treatment that every other similar line in the group of regional lines get.

TheBoyConor

give them the same basic treatment that every other similar line in the group of regional lines get.

Which is exactly what it is getting - disregard and running down. The reality is that IE are only interested in the Dublin commuter, Heuston to Kent and Enterprise services because it suits them. If they could pull down the shutters on every other line in the country tomorrow morning they would happily do so. They didn't even want to re-open the Midleton and WRC lines but they were made to do so by the NTA and the government. Had to be dragged kicking and screaming to run it.

goingnowhere

The fact is the 4 train a day service was in place back in 2006 (which connected well with the new hourly Dublin Cork)

It was advertised in south Tipperary, people did use it but nowhere near the numbers required to make any financial sense

You could also commute from Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy, Wexford, Rosslare to Waterford at useful times. It was the best that could be done within the infrastructure limits of the day.

end of the road

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Which is exactly what it is getting - disregard and running down.

westport, sligo, tralee for example are treated reasonably i find, well sort of anyway, so while yes certain lines are being ran into the ground, it isn't quite true to say that none of the regional lines aren't being treated some bit decently.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The reality is that IE are only interested in the Dublin commuter, Heuston to Kent and Enterprise services because it suits them. If they could pull down the shutters on every other line in the country tomorrow morning they would happily do so. They didn't even want to re-open the Midleton and WRC lines but they were made to do so by the NTA and the government. Had to be dragged kicking and screaming to run it.

i believe they were also forced to introduce the outer suburban services from dublin, or at least the maynooth one.

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

The fact is the 4 train a day service was in place back in 2006 (which connected well with the new hourly Dublin Cork)

It was advertised in south Tipperary, people did use it but nowhere near the numbers required to make any financial sense

You could also commute from Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy, Wexford, Rosslare to Waterford at useful times. It was the best that could be done within the infrastructure limits of the day.

again, how much was really done to inform people of all the possible journey opportunities available via the service being run.
how much did irish rail do to try and get investment in the line, money i expect they would have got had they bothered to show they could grow the traffic?
i'm no more convinced unfortunately that the promotion didn't just extend to the odd lieflet with the majority who knew about it being individuals who would be in the know due to being in a position where they can greatly observe the railway compared to the average user.
also what did irish rail do to try and get investment in this line at the height of the boom when the rest of the network was being invested in and they would have got the money had they shown any interest in wanting to actually operate the line properly.
a rail service needs to be known about and used by average users, it's no good only having railway observers being the only ones in the know about the service.

julyjane

goingnowhere wrote: »

This is the issue the fixed cost base is massive.

The capital investment to automate is significant but you get a 24 hour 7 day railway in return which worst case requires 2 staff/shift (less in practice as staff would control multiple routes from a single position).

There was an effort to upscale the service back in 2007 era when it went to 4 trains/day. Losses went up as the extra fares didn't cover the marginal costs of staff/fuel. The trains and infrastructure were free effectively so if you are not able to make a return in the marginal cost case you are wasting your time.

I remember sometime around late 2008 getting the train to Rosslare from Carrick. As there's no ticket office or machine in Carrick and online tickets weren't available for the line then, the only option was to get on the train and when the conductor came around, pay for the ticket then. 3 of us got on the train in Carrick and nobody came near us, we got a free ride to Rosslare.

goingnowhere

I've never been seen an advertisement to go to Cork, but still I take the train...

Do you want Barry Kenny to come over with tea and biscuits to discuss the timetable?

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

I've never been seen an advertisement to go to Cork, but still I take the train...

Do you want Barry Kenny to come over with tea and biscuits to discuss the timetable?

it is well known there is a train to cork and if people don't know about it, irish rail have engaged in radio and tv advertising among other bits over the years to promote certain promotions and all else with cork generally being mentioned as examples of places which one can go.

Del.Monte

Of course it might help if they still produced a printed all-lines public timetable for sale to the public. They already produce one for their staff so it wouldn't cost much to run off more copies for sale and they might even make a profit, or at the very least, cover the cost of production of the staff copies.

joeysoap

I visited Waterford recently, commuter Dundalk to Dublin, Luas Connolly to Heuston, intercity to Waterford.

The commuter was jam packed by malahide, the luas busy , full but not packed, the train to Waterford was fairly empty and more so after Kilkenny

Returned by bus on the Sunday 10:00 expressway to the airport. It wasn’t scheduled to stop at Heuston but the driver was very obliging and did so. Confess I was astonished by the number of passengers getting off. Most in fact got off. I assumed to catch train connections to Cork or Limerick. I didn’t give it much thought at the time, bar there must be poor connections between Waterford and the other cities. Stayed in the Grenville, nice and central.

Geog1234

goingnowhere wrote: »

There was an effort to upscale the service back in 2007 era when it went to 4 trains/day. Losses went up as the extra fares didn't cover the marginal costs of staff/fuel. The trains and infrastructure were free effectively so if you are not able to make a return in the marginal cost case you are wasting your time.

The point here is, it was tried, it didn't work

I'm looking at the Iarnród Éireann timetable in effect from 9th December, 2007 to 13th December, 2008 which comprises of the four trains in each direction as mentioned.

Given that the vast majority of rail and bus operations require bread and butter commuter traffic to succeed that is the very reason this four trains in each direction offering didn't.

Ex Waterford the trains (to Limerick Junction) were at 06.35, 09.35, 12.30 & 16.38

Ex Limerick Junction the times are 08.50, 11.45, 15.46 (continued through to Rosslare) & 18.45

The 08.50 from Limerick Junction didn't arrive into Waterford until 10.32 thereby precluding commuter and student traffic into the city from South Tipp.

Using the 06.35 Waterford - Limerick Junction to travel into Limerick city saw a half an hour wait at the junction - not arriving into Limerick city until 09.15.

This as mentioned certainly connected very well with Dublin/Cork line services. It also provided a good service for leisure travel/ shopping trips into Waterford and tourists but crucially it did not facilitate the commuter or student and this was its downfall.

CIÉ have been around since 1945, IÉ since 1987 (& NTA since 2009). There is really little excuse for a timetable that doesn't facilitate basic commuting. It is simply a disservice to the public. Despite the constraints of the line and infrastructure it was and is perfectly possible for a train to arrive into either or both Waterford and Limerick pre-09.00.

(PS - not criticising your post - but expressing my dissatisfaction with the poor rail timetable and the apparent intransigence on the part of IÉ and the NTA to offer a decent commuter service with measures such as promotion of free parking, shuttle bus connecting to train & taxsaver tickets etc...)

Curb Your Enthusiasm

It really is such a shame to see this line get such poor treatment by the NTA / Irish Rail.

Even many of the station buildings and platform areas along the line are in bits.

In Cahir, for example, you'd barely even realise there's a railway station in the town. Poor to non existent signage in the town itself, wrecked waiting room, historic footbridge closed off (fair enough, the other side isn't in use) but poorly maintained.

Huge tourism potential here too, with the Blueway and nearby Waterford Greenway. Advertise the ability to bring bikes on the train for the Greenway in Waterford etc. Some sort of promotion!!

I remember getting the train from Clonmel and the station building was locked up. Only for me to get an email about an hour later telling me a bus replacement service was in operation (while on the bus which arrived late). A wheelchair user was waiting at the station with me - the bus that arrived wasn't accessible and they had no option but to not travel.

Not even a timetable at the station, instead directing potential passengers to call Clonmel Station for times!!

Could you imagine being unfamiliar with the line or area, as a tourist wanting to use the train, and seeing a sign like that?!
Not to mention the issue trying to call a number with no 353 prefix listed. Again, totally user unfriendly.

A bit of pride in our historic lines by the operator wouldn't go amiss. I can't help but feel they've completely neglected the line for ages and all the communities along it.

IE are killing this line on purpose.

Pics of Cahir taken a few months back:











PS: this line was featured as one of the more scenic rural lines to try in Europe: https://kilkennynow.ie/on-the-right-track-guardian-travel-writer-names-train-ride-through-kilkenny-among-europes-best-rail-journeys/

Use this kind of promotion to your advantage, IE!

Although it's fairly clear they haven't much interest.

Del.Monte

When I lived in Cahir in the early 1990s the station was already unmanned and when you waited on the platform you had no idea whether the train was running on time, derailed, cancelled or whatever. After a lot of complaints IE put a phone in the waiting area with a notice saying to answer it if it rang as it 'might' be important information about your train. Really you couldn't make it up. The CIE/IE apologists will tell you that an enhanced service was introduced but it wasn't used.

Lord Glentoran

Del.Monte wrote: »

Of course it might help if they still produced a printed all-lines public timetable for sale to the public. They already produce one for their staff so it wouldn't cost much to run off more copies for sale and they might even make a profit, or at the very least, cover the cost of production of the staff copies.

I don’t understand why ticket office staff actively discouraged the Skulls from buying the timetable. Every single time I went to any IR station from 1979 until they stopped selling it the response ranged from huffing and puffing to reach over for the booklet, to saying “it costs x to buy it, do you still want it?”

What the hell was that all about? Why do they go to the bother of printing a booklet and then refuse to sell a copy to the public?

One of those impenetrable things about living in Ireland, it seems.