The decline of Irish journalism

Kivaro

Wibbs wrote: »

And yet the 2004 amendment to our constitution that closed the loophole of unconditional birthright citizenship reflected in the birth tourism of the late 90's that kicked off Ireland's "multiculturalism" in that period was overwhelmingly passed by 80% of the Irish electorate. Today the immigration departments reject the vast majority, nearly 100% in some cases, of such cases from places that had taken advantage of that loophole and outside of a few vested interest NGO's I hear nada from the Irish electorate about reversing that decision, or do you think it wouldn't be passed today?

I am not quite sure why some people on here believe the majority of the Irish population have turned to the left in the last number of years. That is not the case. In the recent election, most people who changed their usual voting preferences voted for Sinn Fein as a protest. I voted for them for that reason, and did not give one vote to any of the parties currently in the coalition government. That does not mean that I now have leftist views. I lean slightly left on some issues and towards the centre for the rest.

KiKi III

Kivaro wrote: »

I am not quite sure why some people on here believe the majority of the Irish population have turned to the left in the last number of years. That is not the case. In the recent election, most people who changed their usual voting preferences voted for Sinn Fein as a protest. I voted for them for that reason, and did not give one vote to any of the parties currently in the coalition government. That does not mean that I now have leftist views. I lean slightly left on some issues and towards the centre for the rest.

If we’re not going to take the last general election plus the most recent three referenda as an indication of Irish people’s leanings, what should we take?

KiKi III

Bearing in mind that it’s not just SF who are left leaning; add up all the seats for the Social Democrats, Labour, AAA PBP (or whatever they’re called these days) and the Greens and compare that to the election results for Aontú and Renua and the National Party.

Impossible to argue the Irish electorate isn’t more left-leaning at the moment.

One eyed Jack

Irish journalism still has some good writers. This piece in the Irish Times was suggested for me this morning by my news app -


Mary Hannigan: ‘Bitches Who Stood’ might be better viewed as useful allies


Regardless of the politics of it one way or the other, I just thought the piece itself was well written, good sense of humour while being able to get across their point

SchrodingersCat

KiKi III wrote: »

If we’re not going to take the last general election plus the most recent three referenda as an indication of Irish people’s leanings, what should we take?

Exactly.

OP, Wibbs, the latest election results did not favor the anti-immigration candidates. Bar the exceptions of Noel Grealish and Verona Murphy, none of them got more than ~2% of their constituencies vote. This includes John Waters, Gemma O Doherty, Peter Casey, Daragh O’Flaherty, All the Renuas, Irish Freedom Party candidates, etc. This fits in with the MRBI election poll that found that only 1% of voters believed that immigration was their most important issue. Even with Noel Grealish and Verona Murphy getting a seat, thats just two anti-immigration candidates taking seats out of a total of 160. Two seats is very little.

Gemma O Doherty only got 4.1% in the 2019 Dublin Fingal by-election and was knocked out in the third count. This fell to only 1.97% in the latest election. If anything her voters are turning away.

Its the same with Peter Casey. He got 23% of the Presidential vote in 2018, but this fell to only 1,142 first preference votes in Donegal and 213 votes in Dublin West in the latest elections.

This was an election where voters were turning away in their droves from the two main parties FF and FG. The likes of these candidates could have cleaned up. But they didn't. Instead they turned to the socialist candidates like Sinn Fein.

You say that Irish Journalism is not balanced. From your posts, you are actually saying that irish journalists dont report about what you want them to report about: news on immigration. They dont, because the Irish people dont care. Dont claim that this journalism is "bad for democracy" because the voters have shown that they dont care

Kivaro

KiKi III wrote: »

Bearing in mind that it’s not just SF who are left leaning; add up all the seats for the Social Democrats, Labour, AAA PBP (or whatever they’re called these days) and the Greens and compare that to the election results for Aontú and Renua and the National Party.

Impossible to argue the Irish electorate isn’t more left-leaning at the moment.

I agree, but confused on where you think I said otherwise.
I said that the majority of the Irish people in this country as a whole are not left-leaning. They would be best categorized as holding centrist views.

KiKi III

Kivaro wrote: »

I agree, but confused on where you think I said otherwise.
I said that the majority of the Irish people in this country as a whole are not left-leaning. They would be best categorized as holding centrist views.

Why are they voting for left-leaning politicians then?

You’re saying “The voters are centrist, they just vote for left wing politicians”. That doesn’t make a whole pile of sense.

If they were centrists, they’d most likely stick with centrist politicians, of which there are many on most ballots.

meeeeh

The last election proves Ireland became more populist. I'm pretty sure people didn't vote SF because of their stand on direct provision or immigration. It was people being fed up with the government party (and FF) and SF promising sun, moon and stars. I wouldn't call abortion referendum and good indication of being left either. The legislation is relatively restrictive in comparison to many European countries and implemented 50 years later.

Ireland like most countries is mix of left and right. I'm not sure media exactly replicates public mood but neither does it have too.

meeeeh

KiKi III wrote: »

Why are they voting for left-leaning politicians then?

You’re saying “The voters are centrist, they just vote for left wing politicians”. That doesn’t make a whole pile of sense.

If they were centrists, they’d most likely stick with centrist politicians, of which there are many on most ballots.

That's not true. Every country has a percentage of floating voters and they will change their mind who to vote every so often however they won't overly change their core beliefs.

Wibbs

KiKi III wrote: »

There have been several high profile cases in the news where communities rallied around a child of immigrants/ refugees who was born and raised here but at risk of being deported to a country they had never been to because of their parents’ status.

Sure in individual local cases, but like I said going on that result to close the loophole it seems the majority of the Irish electorate wanted it closed and I'd bet the farm if the same ballot was taken today it would get the same result. And this is the same electorate that passed marriage rights, pro choice etc. Just because one is pro choice, pro Gay rights, pro divorce and the like doesn't automatically mean someone isn't centrist or anti multiculturalism in its current European wide form.

I'd be someone like that for a start. Hell I know quite a few people over the years who would be considered much more right wing on some positions, and would likely be banned from orbit here if they were honest about said positions and yet all voted in favour of pretty much all of the above over the last few years(the Gay marriage thing alone seems to have been the nope for some of them).

And why don't the right wing parties get more votes? Simply because they're almost to a man and woman nutters or jingoistic fcukwits with idiotic policies. Justin Barrett is a lollypop headed midget with about as much charisma as a housebrick(though being a shortarse seems to be a thing for Irish politics, almost like they have a sign that says you can't go on this ride if you're over this measure). They're not even a spoiled vote choice for the majority of people. They're not any alternative.

And the Irish people aren't right wing, or left wing for that matter. Culturally we tend towards the "be grand" axis and that can be seen throughout our history. We rarely tend to extremes, even in extremis. The extreme left and right wing movements of the 20th century passed us by as a mainstream thing. Even our bad old days of Catholic Ireland in many ways we were middle of the road in that regard, not close to the passion involved with say the Latin nations Catholicism. Maybe it's the weather.

Wibbs

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

You say that Irish Journalism is not balanced. From your posts, you are actually saying that irish journalists dont report about what you want them to report about: news on immigration. They dont, because the Irish people dont care. Dont claim that this journalism is "bad for democracy" because the voters have shown that they dont care

The tail can wag the dog too. So if Irish media for some reason started down the Daily Mail route the Irish people would start to care, one way or another. It's how human nature works and is evident all over the place.

ChelseaRentBoy

Kivaro wrote: »

The Sunday Times also broke the news about the Social Democrats candidate Ellie Kisyombe, who lied in her Irish asylum application. She secured a student visa in Ireland, before travelling to the UK and claiming asylum there. When that failed, she came back to Ireland. As expected in Ireland, she was eventually granted leave to remain. The Pamela Izebekhai scam cost the Irish tax payer over €1 million in costs before finally deporting her back to Nigeria.

Isn't it a bit odd that it takes an English newspaper to bring these stories to the fore?

Not really. We've created a society where if you question anything that involves anyone and I do mean anyone who isn't white and Irish you are immediately labeled a racist, no argument allowed.

The fear of that stops conversation dead in its tracks.

KiKi III

Wibbs wrote: »

And why don't the right wing parties get more votes? Simply because they're almost to a man and woman nutters or jingoistic fcukwits with idiotic policies. Justin Barrett is a lollypop headed midget with about as much charisma as a housebrick(though being a shortarse seems to be a thing for Irish politics, almost like they have a sign that says you can't go on this ride if you're over this measure). They're not even a spoiled vote choice for the majority of people. They're not any alternative.

Lucinda Creighton? Peter Casey? Peadar Toibín?

Even well spoken, relatively normal, politically experienced and/ or well-funded centre-right candidates have had little success.

We’re not just talking about right-wing crazies like Barrett.

The older generation are going to stick with FF/FG until death do them part, the younger generation have zero interest in right-leaning parties.

Wibbs

KiKi III wrote: »

Lucinda Creighton? Peter Casey? Peadar Toibín?

Even well spoken, relatively normal, politically experienced and/ or well-funded centre-right candidates have had little success.

We’re not just talking about right-wing crazies like Barrett.

The older generation are going to stick with FF/FG until death do them part, the younger generation have zero interest in right-leaning parties.

Because the right wingers are well, right wingers so while many might agree with them on Position A, they don't want anything to do with their other positions, which tend to be anti Gay, anti woman, anti social welfare and often pro church and a return to a Gaelic past which never existed. So like I said someone can be anti modern multiculturalism but pro Gay/Women/Choice/Divorce etc. Hell I know a major actual homophobe who is pro choice feminist multiculturalist. There are extreme lefties I would agree with on maybe one politic or another but no way would I vote for the rest of their nonsense. I'd be very environmentally aware but wouldn't vote for the Greens if you put a rifle to my head. I would say many if not most Irish people are similar and so vote for centre left even if they disagree with some policies or other.

SchrodingersCat

Wibbs wrote: »

The tail can wag the dog too. So if Irish media for some reason started down the Daily Mail route the Irish people would start to care, one way or another. It's how human nature works and is evident all over the place.

You are using circular logic here:
You are arguing that Irish journalists do not share the same views of the people
You are now stating that the people have their views because of the journalists.

Pick one.

Kivaro

meeeeh wrote: »

That's not true. Every country has a percentage of floating voters and they will change their mind who to vote every so often however they won't overly change their core beliefs.

I am one, and would hope that everyone else would also be a floating voter.
If not, how else do we effect change?

The time when people voted along traditional/historical lines, while it still does happen, is really from an era long past. We should vote in a manner that ushers in changes for the better.
But I digress from the topic .....

KiKi III

Wibbs wrote: »

Because the right wingers are well, right wingers so while many might agree with them on Position A, they don't want anything to do with their other positions, which tend to be anti Gay, anti woman, anti social welfare and often pro church and a return to a Gaelic past which never existed. So like I said someone can be anti modern multiculturalism but pro Gay/Women/Choice/Divorce etc. Hell I know a major actual homophobe who is pro choice feminist multiculturalist. There are extreme lefties I would agree with on maybe one politic or another but no way would I vote for the rest of their nonsense. I'd be very environmentally aware but wouldn't vote for the Greens if you put a rifle to my head. I would say many if not most Irish people are similar and so vote for centre left even if they disagree with some policies or other.

That all makes sense to me, but what it means is the left has done a far better job of convincing people to vote for them even if they don’t agree on all positions than the right.

I’d consider the AAA/PBP/Solidarity/whatever you’re having yourself to be the left-wing equivalent of the National Party. I’d never vote for either group but the former gets politicians elected and is a vocal opposition group.

We simply haven’t seen the rise in right-wing nationalism (outside Boards) that has happened in Hungary, Poland and Germany.

Wibbs

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

You are using circular logic here:
You are arguing that Irish journalists do not share the same views of the people
You are now stating that the people have their views because of the journalists.

Pick one.

I don't have to. Both can be in play. At the extreme end of history's cultures both of the above were in play. If they weren't all regimes throughout the history of the world would have left the press alone. But they don't. It's about the very first thing they go for and try to control. The Irish state controlled our press for many decades promoting their side.

And it's not as of media doesn't get it wrong regarding the "views of the people". Hell look at that muppet trump and his campaign. Most of the US media and pollsters, even those who were supportive of him were unsure or convinced he'd not win, until he did.

Never mind that journalists overwhelmingly tend to be middle class university graduates which comes with its own set of "biases". Never mind that the very topic of this thread notes the decline of journalism and the press here and the decline in those reading it. Circulation is way down and yes that's down to many factors, but it could also be down to less appeal to the "common man". Those online news sources that still have comment sections tend to attract more aggressive and "right wing" discourse regardless even of whether the outlet is right or left in bias. The most popular "newspaper" English speaking website on earth is the Daily Mail. If that doesn't scare you...

SchrodingersCat

Kivaro wrote: »

But I digress from the topic .....

Yep. You still didnt respond to this:

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

Kivaro wrote: »

You see .......... that is what I believe the majority in this country want i.e. an opportunity for both sides to express their views. Then we can make an informed decision.
At the moment with a lot of social issues/questions, there is just the one side that is presented, and if you try to present anything that deviates from that GroupThink, then the "phobe" and racism accusations are hurled at you.

That is not a healthy democracy.

Kivaro, you are a hypocrite. You claim that everyone should be open to the view of both sides to make an informed decision. However, when someone on this forum expresses a side that you dont agree with you put them on ignore:

Kivaro wrote: »

The mental gymnastics of the poster is why I have him on the ignore list

Kivaro wrote: »

There's a reason why he is on the ignore list...a lot of his claims are unrealistic even for the most liberal of liberals.

Kivaro wrote: »

I have the poster who made the anti-immigration comment on ignore

This is like a child sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting “la la la la".

You look for sympathy for people being called out for racist and anti-immigrant posts.
With the Glasgow stabbings last month, an asylum seeker with mental issues stabbed three others in the center along with a police officer. You insinuated that this happened due to the Black Lives Matters movement.

Kivaro wrote: »

With all the recent rhetoric focused on the police, and people recently holding up signs at marches saying that "White silence = violence", it does not surprise me that we are seeing an increase in these types of attacks.

There was no connection between the two. If you think they were connected because they were black, then yes, you are a racist. If this is how you think, then man up and own it, dont pretend otherwise and dont get butthurt when others call you out for it.

Your issue with Irish journalism is that it doesn't present much of the anti-immigration view that you hold. But neither do many of the Irish people hold these views, so why would they report on it? Its not going to sell them papers. We saw from the last election that voters dont care.

Wibbs

KiKi III wrote: »

We simply haven’t seen the rise in right-wing nationalism (outside Boards) that has happened in Hungary, Poland and Germany.

And I doubt we ever will either K. Like I say the Irish psyche tends to towards be grand, don't rock things too much and god we have to avoid extremes. And this is a good thing. Being a culturally homogeneous bunch for so long likely influenced that. That and only been invaded the once, though we took our time to get over that*. One thing I always noted traveling around much of Europe was the number of towns and villages and defensive fortifications placed on hills. For many European nations and areas the threat of outside, the invader was always there, so I suspect that has informed their politics even down to today. In Ireland you'll find castles and keeps planted in the middle of valleys more because it was convenient and pleasant rather than out of any real defensive purpose.





*it was similar for the English, 1066 and all that and they still witter on about it, but bow their caps to them at the same time. Being a stones throw from Europe and "invasion" kept them jangly too. We were largely beyond all that. Even imperial Rome thought "bugger that wet freezing place"

KiKi III

Wibbs wrote: »

And I doubt we ever will either K. Like I say the Irish psyche tends to towards be grand, don't rock things too much and god we have to avoid extremes. And this is a good thing. Being a culturally homogeneous bunch for so long likely influenced that. That and only been invaded the once, though we took our time to get over that*. One thing I always noted traveling around much of Europe was the number of towns and villages and defensive fortifications placed on hills. For many European nations and areas the threat of outside, the invader was always there, so I suspect that has informed their politics even down to today. In Ireland you'll find castles and keeps planted in the middle of valleys more because it was convenient and pleasant rather than out of any real defensive purpose.





*it was similar for the English, 1066 and all that and they still witter on about it, but bow their caps to them at the same time. Being a stones throw from Europe and "invasion" kept them jangly too. We were largely beyond all that. Even imperial Rome thought "bugger that wet freezing place"

Hmmm so all that being said, I think the original point - that the media is left leaning because society here is - stands.

There may be room for centre-right representation in politics and the media, but it’s not the left’s fault the right can’t come up with any convincing candidates.

I fully agree that the media/ PR consultants/ Special Advisors are all in bed together in a way that’s not particularly healthy for a democracy.

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

Hmmm so all that being said, I think the original point - that the media is left leaning because society here is - stands.

There may be room for centre-right representation in politics and the media, but it’s not the left’s fault the right can’t come up with any convincing candidates.

I fully agree that the media/ PR consultants/ Special Advisors are all in bed together in a way that’s not particularly healthy for a democracy.

That is what we all thought Fg were, turns out they are not, which is why they had a terrible election last January in my opinion.

You have to remember, ideology gets very few of our politicians elected it certainly doesn't keep them there....we have multi seat constituencies with the STV, this binds politicians to the centre more than most countries, for example, you'd have two politicians in the same party in the same constituency competing for the same vote neither is going to alienate the base and both a vigorously going to depend on transfers from others.

So what gets you elected here is your constituency work, best example being the Healy Rae's in Kerry....I'd imagine politics in this country is draining for most people to sustain that kind of workload, which is why we get so many dynasties here....some politicians get away with it, most don't!!

It is unequivocal that we live in a socially liberal society but we have yet to prove how fiscally responsible we are, which is more important to most people like me who see an unsustainable social welfare system and a looming pension crisis that is going to cause us to pay attention over what we fund with tax payers money.

We certainly cannot afford to be importing a social welfare class on top of the one we have....no matter where they are coming from.

That is my take on it at least.

KiKi III

KiKi III wrote: »

Why are they voting for left-leaning politicians then?

You’re saying “The voters are centrist, they just vote for left wing politicians”. That doesn’t make a whole pile of sense.

If they were centrists, they’d most likely stick with centrist politicians, of which there are many on most ballots.

That people believe SF are left leaning is a prime example of the failure of the Irish media to analyse SF's governance of NI, where they were pro-austerity. Hell, their housing plan in the recent election involved giving private developers state land for free (with no rates or taxes due on it either) provided profits were restricted by some arbitrary figure. Giving away state assets for free to developers is neo-liberal (if that phrase has any meaning anymore).

KiKi III

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That people believe SF are left leaning is a prime example of the failure of the Irish media to analyse SF's governance of NI, where they were pro-austerity. Hell, their housing plan in the recent election involved giving private developers state land for free (with no rates or taxes due on it either) provided profits were restricted by some arbitrary figure. Giving away state assets for free to developers is neo-liberal (if that phrase has any meaning anymore).

I’ve mentioned this already, but even if you exclude SF, people vote for Labour, the SocDems, AAA/PBP, the Greens etc in far, far greater numbers than Aontu or Renua.

KiKi III

KiKi III wrote: »

I’ve mentioned this already, but even if you exclude SF, people vote for Labour, the SocDems, AAA/PBP, the Greens etc in far, far greater numbers than Aontu or Renua.

My point was more directed at the weakness that passes for analysis by newspapers here tbh.

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

That is what we all thought Fg were, turns out they are not, which is why they had a terrible election last January in my opinion.

You have to remember, ideology gets very few of our politicians elected it certainly doesn't keep them there....we have multi seat constituencies with the STV, this binds politicians to the centre more than most countries, for example, you'd have two politicians in the same party in the same constituency competing for the same vote neither is going to alienate the base and both a vigorously going to depend on transfers from others.

So what gets you elected here is your constituency work, best example being the Healy Rae's in Kerry....I'd imagine politics in this country is draining for most people to sustain that kind of workload, which is why we get so many dynasties here....some politicians get away with it, most don't!!

It is unequivocal that we live in a socially liberal society but we have yet to prove how fiscally responsible we are, which is more important to most people like me who see an unsustainable social welfare system and a looming pension crisis that is going to cause us to pay attention over what we fund with tax payers money.

We certainly cannot afford to be importing a social welfare class on top of the one we have....no matter where they are coming from.

That is my take on it at least.

This post from another thread shows the political classification of governments in EU countries since 1947. Their assessment of Ireland is that it has been governed by center right parties for the entirety of the time since then.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Political Position of Governing Parties of Europe 1946-2017

Don't know if even FG would disagree or anyone else looking at the housing situation, or the appeal by Ireland against the Apple Tax judgement from the EU amongst other issues.

meeeeh

KiKi III wrote: »

I’ve mentioned this already, but even if you exclude SF, people vote for Labour, the SocDems, AAA/PBP, the Greens etc in far, far greater numbers than Aontu or Renua.

Labour, SD and Greens are centre left at best. The Looney Bin crowd is left but they are basically Dublin and Cork centered independents and can be countered by Kerry and Tipperary contingent. For me Ireland resembles Germany in a lot of ways where CDU is usually dominant party in power.

Another difference is that right wing voters tend to be more disciplined, they will vote for parties that have a chance to get in government. While 10 people in the left tend to start 10 parties and go into government only when it's ideologically pure. That will always get some share of the vote. They won't disappoint anyone when in government because they won't go into government.

KiKi III

meeeeh wrote: »

Labour, SD and Greens are centre left at best. The Looney Bin crowd is left but they are basically Dublin and Cork centered independents and can be countered by Kerry and Tipperary contingent. For me Ireland resembles Germany in a lot of ways where CDU is usually dominant party in power.

Another difference is that right wing voters tend to be more disciplined, they will vote for parties that have a chance to get in government. While 10 people in the left tend to start 10 parties and go into government only when it's ideologically pure. That will always get some share of the vote. They won't disappoint anyone when in government because they won't go into government.

They’ve been extremely disciplined in voting no one in for the last two elections.

meeeeh

KiKi III wrote: »

They’ve been extremely disciplined in voting no one in for the last two elections.

That's not true. Ireland has two centre right parties with very little difference between them refusing to govern together. But voters of either of them have good chance their party will be in government. This is not US or UK where one party government is a norm.

Tell me how

meeeeh wrote: »

Another difference is that right wing voters tend to be more disciplined, they will vote for parties that have a chance to get in government. While 10 people in the left tend to start 10 parties and go into government only when it's ideologically pure. That will always get some share of the vote. They won't disappoint anyone when in government because they won't go into government.

This is something which frustrates the hell out of me. I am a strong advocate for action in relation to the environment and sustainability. The Green Party were vocal champions for this throughout last year and used it as a rallying cry for the European and General elections. After the GE, they started to focus more on the ancillary issues and suggesting not going in to government unless commitments were made on these areas. And now, they are undermining the government and their own leadership because everything is not perfect.
Their desire for a utopian government is going to mean any achievements in relation to the environment will be tokenistic or non-existent.

I will still advocate for action in relation to the above areas but I fear that the last few months have been 1 step forward (commitment to more money on sustainable commuting practices) and 2 steps back (no meaningful action on emissions and undermining the Green message).