The decline of Irish journalism

sid waddell

TheCitizen wrote: »

This is totally over the top commentary, typical of what passes for comment around here these days. I think you said you have me on ignore, not surprised when I pull you up consistently on this kind of ott gibberish.

This quoted comment btw is from the op of this thread. I think we can safely say despite his thread title that he wasn't interested in a discussion re "the decline of Irish journalism", but rather he was using that as an opportunity to grind his axe against progressivism etc.

Well knock me down with a feather! Who would possibly have guessed that was their real aim?!

Who would possibly have guessed that the thread was a self-conscious grift?!

KiKi III

I couldn’t think of a single intellectual on the right who would match the likes of Michael D on the left.

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

I couldn’t think of a single intellectual on the right who would match the likes of Michael D on the left.

Who, the multi millionaire socialist, he can pull the wool over people's eyes alright...I'll give him that!!!

mariaalice

sid waddell wrote: »

Three of the big "heroes" of the Irish right-wing were Kevin Myers, George Hook and John Waters.

Myers outed himself as an anti-Semite.

Hook decided to blame rape victims for their own rape and longed for the days when husbands could rape their wives without sanction.

Waters is now full on fash and best buds with Gemtrails.

And at least two of these styled themselves as "intellectuals".

I think that's the "intellectualism" of the Irish right-wing summed up neatly there.

Now they're left with David "President John Waters" Quinn, Maria "shut up while I shout over you" Steen, the fake news JC McQuaid wannabes of grift.ie, the fake Facebook competitions, data harvesting and plagiarised, distorted stories with a far right slant of Leo "Walter Mitty" Sherlock, and a few barely literate student misfit rags.

Oh, and Nazi-loving Justin Barrett, Soldier F wannabe Tan Torino, Ben of the family Gilroy ("I'll break your ****ing face") and the Burkes of Castlebar, Ireland's answer to the Westboro Baptist Church.

Intellectualism and the self-styled Irish right-wing is a complete oxymoron.

That is a side show and nothing to do with genuine philosophical conservatism.

Akesh

KiKi III wrote: »

I couldn’t think of a single intellectual on the right who would match the likes of Michael D on the left.

:pac::pac:

In fairness to Michael D, he has proven how dim the average Irish person is. He has an odd, cult-like fan base. He is a man of absolutely no substance and the definition of a champagne socialist. He's about as woke as it gets and he's probably the most popular president in history.

Incredible stuff really. A heavyweight intellectual in comparison to Trump, maybe.

sid waddell

mariaalice wrote: »

That is a side show and nothing to do with genuine philosophical conservatism.

William F. Buckley was held up as the philosophical and intellectual powerhouse of the American right-wing in the 1960s.

He was so philosophical and intellectual that he's best known for telling Gore Vidal he'd "sock you in the goddamn face", "you queer".

Wonderful intellectualism and philosophy.

MrMusician18

KiKi III wrote: »

I couldn’t think of a single intellectual on the right who would match the likes of Michael D on the left.

That's a fair enough comment. The centre right does suffer from a dearth of intellectuals - with the field abandoned to the far right, lunatics fascists and out and out racists.

It's not because they don't exist, but one does wonder why they don't put their heads above the parapet?

KiKi III

Akesh wrote: »

:pac::pac:

In fairness to Michael D, he has proven how dim the average Irish person is. He has an odd, cult-like fan base. He is a man of absolutely no substance and the definition of a champagne socialist. He's about as woke as it gets and he's probably the most popular president in history.

Incredible stuff really. A heavyweight intellectual in comparison to Trump, maybe.

He’s an academic and a poet, a human rights campaigner, a former TD and Senator and a two-term President.

And you call him a man of no substance because...? Because you don’t like him is all.

sid waddell

Silentcorner wrote: »

Who, the multi millionaire socialist, he can pull the wool over people's eyes alright...I'll give him that!!!

Socialists don't have a problem with the existence of millionaires.

And you can very much be a millionaire and a socialist.

You're just doing that really stupid thing that far right posters tend to do so much, where in order to disguise their lack of a point, they create a straw man based on Soviet communism and debate that instead of debating based on reality - because they find debating based on actual reality far too taxing.

sid waddell

KiKi III wrote: »

He’s an academic and a poet, a human rights campaigner, a former TD and Senator and a two-term President.

And you call him a man of no substance because...? Because you don’t like him is all.

The self-styled online right-wing hate academics. They hate any sort of intellectualism and see it as something to be ridiculed rather than celebrated.

It's why they're now hanging on David "Three words: President John Waters" Quinn as the beating "intellectual" heart of their "movement.

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

He’s an academic and a poet, a human rights campaigner, a former TD and Senator and a two-term President.

And you call him a man of no substance because...? Because you don’t like him is all.

Jim Kemmy was a socialist, human rights campaigner..his lifestyle reflected his ideology and principles, like him or not.

Higgins is a spoofer let alone a poet, made an absolute fortune working in Irish politics and has never been asked a hard question by anyone in media, especially pertinent as there are persistent rumours of his dishonesty while in office.

meeeeh

Invidious wrote: »

That is true — and yet, when we see Irish Times articles such as "Toppling statues is just the beginning: How to make Irish culture less racist," it's clear that the woke cultural revolution is making inroads in Ireland, especially among the young educated urban population. It's not wrong to note that people with such views are adopting the same ideological stance that animates one side of the current American culture war.

That's the consequence of more globalised world.

I think distinction between left and right is false nowadays. On one side you have more educated, well of globalised group arguing about nonsense stuff like trans issues because otherwise their lives are fairly comfortable. On the other side there is left and right that was left behind by globalisation and their jobs went to poorer countries. As in case of Ukip or National Front it's clear they attract people from both sides. In between are current or recent students who grew up in relatively well off households and are now discovering their lives will be less comfortable than lives of their parents.

Anyway roughly two older groups are serviced by tabloids and more prestigious media on other side. They are all screwed because it will be social media who will dominate news in future.

Cyclonius

sid waddell wrote: »

William F. Buckley was held up as the philosophical and intellectual powerhouse of the American right-wing in the 1960s.

He was so philosophical and intellectual that he's best known for telling Gore Vidal he'd "sock you in the goddamn face", "you queer".

Wonderful intellectualism and philosophy.

Neither Gore Vidal or Buckley came out of that encounter looking fantastic, though Buckley's remarks are clearly the more distasteful. Try reading something from Friedman, Sowell, Stigler or any of the other Chicago school economists instead, if you want to read something from an American public intellectual from right of the centre. If you want to read something from an Irish conservative public intellectual, try the works of Edmund Burke.

sid waddell

Cyclonius wrote: »

Neither Gore Vidal or Buckley came out of that encounter looking fantastic, though Buckley's remarks are clearly the more distasteful. Try reading something from Friedman, Sowell, Stigler or any of the other Chicago school economists instead.

I'd rather bang me head off a wall.

Sowell compared Barack Obama to Hitler, Mao and Jim Jones.

Who thinks Obama is Hitler? Conservative columnist Thomas Sowell. A few days before the 2008 presidential election, Sowell penned a broadside against then–Illinois Sen. Barack Obama’s call for “change” in American life. Warning that it could mean anything, Sowell pointed to examples of “change” that claimed millions of lives. “[M]any today seem to assume that if things are bad, “change” will make them better. Specifics don’t interest them nearly as much as inspiring rhetoric and a confident style. But many 20th-century leaders with inspiring rhetoric and great self-confidence led their followers or their countries into utter disasters. These ranged from Jim Jones who led hundreds to their deaths in Jonestown to Hitler and Mao who led millions to their deaths.”

Sowell is beloved of white pseudo-intellectuals because he's a black man who agitates against the interests of black people, and who tells the white far right stuff they love to hear.

Friedman was a buddy of the murderous General Pinochet in Chile and worked for his regime.

The Chicago school has nothing to offer anybody. If any institution is responsible for the wealth inequality, poverty, lack of social mobility and systematic destruction of workers rights and welfare states around the world, and the resulting anger arising from such, it's the Chicago School of Economics.

In their honest moments, self styled libertarians themselves have admitted that their idea of "economic liberty" is incompatible with political freedom.

Charles Koch and James Buchanan certainly did. In fact Buchanan was hugely influential in writing the 1980 constitution of Chile which has hamstrung and neutered democracy there ever since.

KiKi III

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jim Kemmy was a socialist, human rights campaigner..his lifestyle reflected his ideology and principles, like him or not.

Higgins is a spoofer let alone a poet, made an absolute fortune working in Irish politics and has never been asked a hard question by anyone in media, especially pertinent as there are persistent rumours of his dishonesty while in office.

There's no requirement to take a vow of poverty to advocate for the less well off.

Dishonesty in his execution of public office? Or in his personal life? I couldn't care less what happens in his bedroom, but I'd be interested to know if he has any ethical failings you can point to in public life?

Either way, "I don't like him so he's not an intellectual" is child-like logic, he's a renowned statesman, academic and poet and that doesn't change just because you call him a champagne socialist.

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

There's no requirement to take a vow of poverty to advocate for the less well off.

Dishonesty in his execution of public office? Or in his personal life? I couldn't care less what happens in his bedroom, but I'd be interested to know if he has any ethical failings you can point to in public life?

Either way, "I don't like him so he's not an intellectual" is child-like logic, he's a renowned statesman, academic and poet and that doesn't change just because you call him a champagne socialist.

Why are you twisting my words....

I don't believe he is the statesman you are making him out to be, outside of holding the office of the presidency (a ff bagman nearly beat him to it without the help of RTE Higgins would have lost to him) he has had a very nondescript political career, he has however made an absolute fortune for himself doing so...

My issue is his ridiculously overpaid position and how he secured his first and second period in that office...and there are legitimate questions surrounding his personnel that have never been asked of him.

I don't know the man personally not to like him, I voted for him over the FF bagman...

Invidious

KiKi III wrote: »

He’s an academic and a poet, a human rights campaigner, a former TD and Senator and a two-term President.

We get carried away with the idea that Michael D. Higgins is some kind of supreme towering intellect, when his poetry is third-rate at best and most of his books and speeches simply recycle ideas that aren't original to him. Some of his statements as president (e.g., his Castro speech) have been truly cringeworthy.

KiKi III

Invidious wrote: »

We get carried away with the idea that Michael D. Higgins is some kind of supreme towering intellect, when his poetry is third-rate at best and most of his books and speeches simply recycle ideas that aren't original to him. Some of his statements as president (e.g., his Castro speech) have been truly cringeworthy.

Is it possible the determination to tear Higgins down and dismiss his achievements comes from the fact that there is no comparable right wing figure with such a distinguished career?

Strikes me as bog standard irish begrudgery.

mariaalice

I have moderate left views.

Read Desmond Fennell( a conservative and a socialist ) for an Irish context, it use to be that it was the D4 set and revisionist history that was imposing liberal values on an Ireland that did not want them, now its woke culture imposing its values on an Ireland that does not want them

Or read Rodger Scruton or John Grey

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

Is it possible the determination to tear Higgins down and dismiss his achievements comes from the fact that there is no comparable right wing figure with such a distinguished career?

Strikes me as bog standard irish begrudgery.

Des O'Malley is a far more distinguished politician than Higgins, far greater impact on Irish life.

Higgins is no leader, he is tolerated and humoured more than a man who has influenced, he nearly lost that presidential election to a "Dragon"....were it not for RTE he'd have been forgotten about.

Invidious

KiKi III wrote: »

Is it possible the determination to tear Higgins down and dismiss his achievements comes from the fact that there is no comparable right wing figure with such a distinguished career?

Not really. I think people have fallen for the notion that he's some kind of renowned poet and towering intellect, when he simply isn't. Without Googling, can you name a single noteworthy poem by Higgins? Can you name a single noteworthy book he has written that doesn't fall into the genre of self-promotional pap?

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

Is he not the minister who signed section 31 out of law??

Thus removing censorship from the media of sinn fein......wheter yous agree with the shinners or not is another question....but his career is not nondescript

He has never held a decent portfolio in Government...

James Brown

On the left vent; look at Ireland back in the 40's and 50's, hardcore catholic and pretty right wing. We've only started to liberalise in the last 30 years or so.its been a slow slog and we are not heading to the equivalent on the other side IMO.
We still bear societal restrictions which run against the current way the world is moving pushed on by the fact with social media everyone has a voice.
Nobody is locking people away in laundries for not supporting the right to choose.
I think change can be worrying but we've a long way to go and journalism, dependent on revenue is merely a mirror although sometimes biased.

KiKi III

Invidious wrote: »

Not really. I think people have fallen for the notion that he's some kind of renowned poet and towering intellect, when he simply isn't. Without Googling, can you name a single noteworthy poem by Higgins? Can you name a single noteworthy book he has written that doesn't fall into the genre of self-promotional pap?

I could quote from some of his more memorable speeches and have a book of them at home.

I’m not familiar with any contemporary irish poets outside of the Leaving Cert syllabus, so that doesn’t really prove anything, nor does one pernickety Guardian article.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

He has never held a decent portfolio in Government...

I have never said he did???

But he did sign.the most controversial (and utterly pointless)pieces of legislation in history of the state out of law


I was always suprised the shinners went up againest him.after this tbh

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

I have never said he did???

But he did sign.the most controversial (and utterly pointless)pieces of legislation in history of the state out of law


I was always suprised the shinners went up againest him.after this tbh

I suppose the shinners felt it was pointless too, voice dubbing didn't harm them I'd imagine, it probably helped them if anything.

political analyst

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Makes you wonder why the media were fawning over themselves to tell us that the government were playing a "Blinder" in regard to Covid, despite being amongst the worst in the world. The only comparisons were of the U.S and UK and then the easily bat downable New Zealand who preformed well but are and island in the ****hole of nowhere.

They knew a government was being formed and wanted to keep themselves within frame for a secure and lecrutive "advisor" role.

A death toll of under 1,800 in this republic over 4 months isn't too bad.

Kivaro

If you filter out the posts with the words "alt right" and "racist" in them, then the consensus on the thread is not only a declining journalism profession, but also a major decline of quality for that profession. The GroupThink position that most media in Ireland now adhere to is dangerous. It does not allow a journalist or investigative reporter to deviate from the new norm, which is why we have topics and groups in this country that are now untouchable; even when there is serious wrongdoing occurring.

And that results in the mistrust of journalism.

KiKi III

Kivaro wrote: »

If you filter out the posts with the words "alt right" and "racist" in them, then the consensus on the thread is not only a declining journalism profession, but also a major decline of quality for that profession. The GroupThink position that most media in Ireland now adhere to is dangerous. It does not allow a journalist or investigative reporter to deviate from the new norm, which is why we have topics and groups in this country that are now untouchable; even when there is serious wrongdoing occurring.

And that results in the mistrust of journalism.

The question really is where to go from here. Do newspapers become NGOs rather than businesses? Do we support individual journalists with Patreon accounts?

The industry has to adapt, but the how isn’t clear.

Silentcorner

Kivaro wrote: »

If you filter out the posts with the words "alt right" and "racist" in them, then the consensus on the thread is not only a declining journalism profession, but also a major decline of quality for that profession. The GroupThink position that most media in Ireland now adhere to is dangerous. It does not allow a journalist or investigative reporter to deviate from the new norm, which is why we have topics and groups in this country that are now untouchable; even when there is serious wrongdoing occurring.

And that results in the mistrust of journalism.

It's not just an Irish journalism issue, news coming out of the already compromised NYT this evening...major resignation just been announced...Bari Weiss...that news organisation is in the gutter.