How do we break the welfare cycle?

November Golf

Pkiernan wrote: »

Or the size of the working labour force has increased, while the number of lazy scroungers hasn't increased so much.

And its not just the number of scroungers, its how much they get from cradle to grave without lifting a finger.

The labour force hasn't seen a 5 fold increase. The birth and death rates haven't changed signicantly.

To your second point, How much is that?

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote:

Where is the extra debt?

The two most common methods of money creation are government created bonds and bank created credit, the only major problem with that is neoclassical economics doesn't recognise the latter, hence why most neoclassically lead institutions, which is the majority, didn't forsee the previous crash coming, but others that do, did see it coming. It's interesting to know, neoclassical economics still doesn't accept this.

Our governments are gonna be out in force soon trying to convince us to start spending our savings, when a large proportion of people will still be out of work and the rest of us will be wondering if we ll have a job by Christmas.

They will also be trying to stimulate the private sector economy, to grow, but it needs money to do so, the private sector 'receives' this money in the form of credit from financial institutions which in turn becomes it's debt, the only problem with this is, the private sector will have limited capacity to do this for some time, very few house holds and private sector businesses will have the capacity to do this for some time.

square ball

gailforecast wrote: »

How do we stop generational welfare recipients?

Do CE schemes or other work programs work? Or is there another approach we can take which will be effective?

I think CE schemes for the most part are a waste of time. Most lads figure out the craic with them after a couple of weeks, it's more of a box ticking exercise and there is little work to be done. Gets them out of the house for 19.5 hours a week and they go back on the dole once it's over. The best way to stop generational welfare recipients is to make sure you are not better off on the dole than you are by working. There is too much given handy to 'career' social welfare receipients. Obviously not everyone milks it but it's a farce when you see a couple that never worked having a load of children, getting a free house and pulling in €500+ plus per week.

1. Increase Jobseekers Benefit to a percentage of your earnings that reduces down to current rate after a period of time. Allow JSB recipients to avail of fuel allowance and Christmas bonus if you have been working full time for over 2 year's. Reduce Jobseeker's Allowance at a staggered rate over time. Eg: rate decrease by 5 - 10% every 12 months for first 3 years.

2. Remove Christmas bonus for all schemes bar Contributary Pension, Disability Allowance, Carers Allowance and Jobseeker's Benefit.

3. Cap child benefit to 4 children. Very few families with parents in full time employment are able to afford to have more than 3 children. Bigger families means more money to a lot of people that never work.

4. Tie Child Dependent Allowance in with school attendance. Kids don't go to school, parent's don't get paid. Unless genuine certified illness no reason why children aren't in school 5 days a week. Kids go to school 60% of the time parents get 60% of CDA rate. Incentivise full attendance with a small bonus. Incentivise completion of Leaving Certificate and completion of Third Level Courses.

5. Everyone fit and able to work should be required to do community service or some kind of work if on a payment more than 12 months. Make sure the dole isn't easy anymore as most people would have the attitude of if I'm working I may as well get paid properly.

6. Early intervention of 18 years old who try to sign on. Make sure every avenue is exhausted before they can get a payment without working full time or without attending a course/apprenticeship where there is a realistic opportunity of a job.

7. Recycle Social Housing and increase occupancy of existing social housing. There should be no houses with empty bedrooms and 1 or 2 people living in a 3/4 or 5 bedroom house if the state is paying the rent. If you want to live on your own you can pay out of your own pocket. I think this is the biggest drain on Taxes as the percentage occupancy is quite low for Hap/council housing.

8. If you turn down social housing without a legitimate reason you should be removed from the waiting list and not allowed re apply for 12 months. Living further than a 100 metres of your parents is not a reason to turn down a free house.

9. Put resources into subsidised childcare to benefit workers especially low income workers.

mick087

Treat all people in what ever job they do with respect as you yourself would like to be treated in your ow line of work.
Improve education for those who struggle or are not gifted in education.
Accept people for who they are don't try to lord over then with a superior smarmy manner.
Pay people a fair decent living wage.

The myth created is Irish people are lazy' this is not the case many feel they are getting a raw deal on the minimum wage.

Give people a decent income give them respect and your end the majority of the unemployment cycle.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote: »

Treat all people in what ever job they do with respect as you yourself would like to be treated in your ow line of work.
Improve education for those who struggle or are not gifted in education.
Accept people for who they are don't try to lord over then with a superior smarmy manner.
Pay people a fair decent living wage.

The myth created is Irish people are lazy' this is not the case many feel they are getting a raw deal on the minimum wage.

Give people a decent income give them respect and your end the majority of the unemployment cycle.

unfortunately our educational system is based on the rote system, and fails a large proportion of people, in fact, id go further, and id agree with david mcwilliams on this one, 'our educational system makes a whole pile of people think theyre intelligent, and a smaller group of people think theyre not', i.e. i believe it fails most people, many people are very poorly prepared for adulthood leaving our educational system, some cant even make their way through the earlier stages of our system, many of these end up long term unemployed.

mick087

Wanderer78 wrote: »

unfortunately our educational system is based on the rote system, and fails a large proportion of people, in fact, id go further, and id agree with david mcwilliams on this one, 'our educational system makes a whole pile of people think theyre intelligent, and a smaller group of people think theyre not', i.e. i believe it fails most people, many people are very poorly prepared for adulthood leaving our educational system, some cant even make their way through the earlier stages of our system, many of these end up long term unemployed.

I would say the education system was not talked about in my youth growing up. It was get a job pay your way.

Myself didn't understand the importance of education to much later in life. I was lucky my farther helped me get me an apprenticeship and i went on to become a tradesman.

Many of the people i grew up with took low paid jobs and the stories of pay and treatment is not good. Because of this many gave up and ended up being unemployed for long periods. None of the kids on my road went on to secondary education and today many don't have the understanding of how important education is. This in turn is being repeated with there own children.

pgj2015

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Exactly, but we have an elitist attitude towards jobs in this country... I genuinely think many people enjoy looking down their nose at those who are unemployed. It's almost like a sport or hobby for many folks!

The amount of people in this country, who define themselves by what they do for a living... all their self-worth is about their job. It's quite sad and pathetic really... So it is no surprise that people who can't find a job, are seen as the lowest scum in society.

Remove the barriers to employment and remove the elitism inherent in the our society. Stop treating unemployed people like pariahs and just give them a job! (A real job, not some scheme designed to humiliate them!)

Lol I think you will find it is people who don't want a job that are looked down on.

gailforecast

pgj2015 wrote: »

Lol I think you will find it is people who don't want a job that are looked down on.

Exactly, semantics are very important here. The thread was started about people who don’t want a job, specifically when this attitude transcends generations. People actually looking for work should be afforded every opportunity to find employment.

Wanderer78

mick087 wrote: »

I would say the education system was not talked about in my youth growing up. It was get a job pay your way.

Myself didn't understand the importance of education to much later in life. I was lucky my farther helped me get me an apprenticeship and i went on to become a tradesman.

Many of the people i grew up with took low paid jobs and the stories of pay and treatment is not good. Because of this many gave up and ended up being unemployed for long periods. None of the kids on my road went on to secondary education and today many don't have the understanding of how important education is. This in turn is being repeated with there own children.

education certainly is important, i got very lucky, as my generation was capable of furthering our educational experience, as third levels fees were significantly reduced, this is now slowly reversing.

but its important to remember, some minds simply arent designed for rote learning, mine included, some how i managed to get to a level 9, but many with my disorders(autism and dyslexia), simply dont, they struggle all the way through, until they cant anymore, many fall out at earlier stages, ending up in long term unemployment.

alternative career paths are not very well catered for, some not at all, within our educational system, the system is academically biased, but what if you have no interest or poor abilities to excel in these environments? alternatives such as the trades are virtually unrepresented within the system, strangely enough without these folks, our economy and society wouldnt function

pgj2015

Wanderer78 wrote: »

education certainly is important, i got very lucky, as my generation was capable of furthering our educational experience, as third levels fees were significantly reduced, this is now slowly reversing.

but its important to remember, some minds simply arent designed for rote learning, mine included, some how i managed to get to a level 9, but many with my disorders(autism and dyslexia), simply dont, they struggle all the way through, until they cant anymore, many fall out at earlier stages, ending up in long term unemployment.

alternative career paths are not very well catered for, some not at all, within our educational system, the system is academically biased, but what if you have no interest or poor abilities to excel in these environments? alternatives such as the trades are virtually unrepresented within the system, strangely enough without these folks, our economy and society wouldnt function

education is important but there are lots of jobs that someone could do who had zero academic ability. I worked for a man who couldn't sign his own name, he was a hard worker who became a millionaire through hard work and determination.

Wanderer78

pgj2015 wrote: »

education is important but there are lots of jobs that someone could do who had zero academic ability. I worked for a man who couldn't sign his own name, he was a hard worker who became a millionaire through hard work and determination.

completely agree, society needs these people to, but unfortunately the odds are quickly going in the wrong direction for younger generations to able to achieve such success, of course there will always be exceptions to the rules

pgj2015

Wanderer78 wrote: »

completely agree, society needs these people to, but unfortunately the odds are quickly going in the wrong direction for younger generations to able to achieve such success, of course there will always be exceptions to the rules

Things are changing for sure but I think there will always be ways for people who aren't academic to succeed. if you look around you will see plenty of opportunities that anyone could seize. There are youtubers making millions from uploading videos, all they need is a phone. this kind of thing wasn't around 20 years ago.

you could set up a gardening business, cleaning business, painting business, photography business etc with little start up costs.

didn't someone post here lately about a couple in the UK, who started making hand sanitizer in their house at the start of the pandemic and have make 30 million since.

Wanderer78

pgj2015 wrote: »

Things are changing for sure but I think there will always be ways for people who aren't academic to succeed. if you look around you will see plenty of opportunities that anyone could seize. There are youtubers making millions from uploading videos, all they need is a phone. this kind of thing wasn't around 20 years ago.

you could set up a gardening business, cleaning business, painting business, photography business etc with little start up costs.

didn't someone post here lately about a couple in the UK, who started making hand sanitizer in their house at the start of the pandemic and have make 30 million since.

true, but i do agree, as inequality grows, inequality of opportunity also grows

pgj2015

Wanderer78 wrote: »

true, but i do agree, as inequality grows, inequality of opportunity also grows

in way I agree but this is a great country for grants for the unemployed, disadvantaged. BTEA for unemployed who want to go to college, BTWEA for unemployed who want to set up a business. id much rather be unemployed in Ireland than the USA for example. I have taken advantage of both those grants btw so I know how great they are.

Wanderer78

pgj2015 wrote: »

in way I agree but this is a great country for grants for the unemployed, disadvantaged. BTEA for unemployed who want to go to college, BTWEA for unemployed who want to set up a business. id much rather be unemployed in Ireland than the USA for example. I have taken advantage of both those grants btw so I know how great they are.

true, but what if the educational system failed you in the earlier stages, never underestimated the serious negative effects this can cause psychologically, the us has pushed these ideas and ideologies to the extreme, hence its current outcome

pgj2015

Wanderer78 wrote: »

true, but what if the educational system failed you in the earlier stages, never underestimated the serious negative effects this can cause psychologically, the us has pushed these ideas and ideologies to the extreme, hence its current outcome

Maybe, I don't agree with the way education is run in this country, i believe you shouldn't have to do maths or Irish after junior cert and students should only do 3 or 4 subjects for leaving cert. everyone is good at some subject usually in my experience, I hated maths but loved English, failed maths in leaving cert so "failed" the leaving cert. went back back in 3 years and resat it and passed, went to college and ended up doing Law which I loved and found easy to be honest.

now id say my maths teachers would have thought I was stupid and wouldn't believe I could do Law in college.

Wanderer78

pgj2015 wrote: »

Maybe, I don't agree with the way education is run in this country, i believe you shouldn't have to do maths or Irish after junior cert and students should only do 3 or 4 subjects for leaving cert. everyone is good at some subject usually in my experience, I hated maths but loved English, failed maths in leaving cert so "failed" the leaving cert. went back back in 3 years and resat it and passed, went to college and ended up doing Law which I loved and found easy to be honest.

now id say my maths teachers would have thought I was stupid and wouldn't believe I could do Law in college.

it does seem like there are people that have minds that are more language based(right brained), and others that are more so maths(logical) based(left brained), im more logical left brained, no wonder im an aspie

4068ac1elhodqr

Wanderer78 wrote: »

it does seem like there are people that have minds that are more language based(right brained), and others that are more so maths(logical) based(left brained), im more logical left brained, no wonder im an aspie

Dedicate technical colleges for 16yr+ might be a good idea for the more hands-on^ folks, from the x4 typical types of learning styles: visual, auditory, reading/writing and ^kinesthetic.

Wanderer78

Briana Substantial Bulldog wrote: »

Dedicate technical colleges for 16yr+ might be a good idea for the more hands-on^ folks, from the x4 typical types of learning styles: visual, auditory, reading/writing and ^kinesthetic.

yea i think so, i believe countries such as Switzerland have these, and graduates are highly respected, or somehow integrate it into our current system, but its probably easier just to create a new system

mick087

Wanderer78 wrote: »

education certainly is important, i got very lucky, as my generation was capable of furthering our educational experience, as third levels fees were significantly reduced, this is now slowly reversing.

but its important to remember, some minds simply arent designed for rote learning, mine included, some how i managed to get to a level 9, but many with my disorders(autism and dyslexia), simply dont, they struggle all the way through, until they cant anymore, many fall out at earlier stages, ending up in long term unemployment.

alternative career paths are not very well catered for, some not at all, within our educational system, the system is academically biased, but what if you have no interest or poor abilities to excel in these environments? alternatives such as the trades are virtually unrepresented within the system, strangely enough without these folks, our economy and society wouldnt function

I find who people have Dyslexia fascinating. The way they can view and solve problems is unbelievable. With the trade im in on occasions i have struggled to keep up with some who are dyslexic.Your comment "academically biased" would be a very good and correct comment.

There are some Highley intelligent people out there who would know there way around the system as in entilements rights etc. Some of these people if they had of been given the right guidence or encouragement would of gone to further education and achieved a more fullfing life. Instead some in society criticize and run down these people.

Geuze

Briana Substantial Bulldog wrote: »

Dedicate technical colleges for 16yr+ might be a good idea for the more hands-on^ folks, from the x4 typical types of learning styles: visual, auditory, reading/writing and ^kinesthetic.

Isn't that what the IoT are meant to be?

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

Isn't that what the IoT are meant to be?

kinna, kinna not, trades were shoehorned in, very badly, if at all

RandomViewer

RandomViewer wrote: »

What is the student grant? 3k ,how long were they college?

Geuze wrote: »

Isn't that what the IoT are meant to be?

in the 80s after Inter cert students could do a trades year, this kept them at school an extra year with extra classes of woodwork /metalwork/technical drawing, some had a job placement where the student did a day a week in a trade related business, there was a small financial incentive as well to keep attendance up.