How do we break the welfare cycle?

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

And giving excessive amounts of cash to an alcoholic is nothing short of enabling.

id say not addressing their psychological issues appropriately is more enabling

ELM327

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

What happens when the time limit is up?

People just become homeless/starve?

That will end up costing the exchequer way more in other costs, such Health and Justice, and also lead to a loss of human resources as, at a minimum, you lose the productivity of children who grow up in such an environment.

Do you want better outcomes or do you want to take away things from people you don't believe are deserving?

Works well in most other countries.
Why are we (and the UK) so different to the rest of world?

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id say not addressing their psychological issues appropriately is more enabling

And there’s plenty of programs for addiction etc. Regardless, it’s besides the point, and a poor attempt at deflecting.

Wanderer78

ELM327 wrote: »

Works well in most other countries.
Why are we (and the UK) so different to the rest of world?

hmmm i know a chap that lived in the uk for a while, hes showing signs of autism , depression and anxiety, and has a drug and alcohol dependency, he said when on the dole in the uk, many get involved in crime to survive, he did

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

And there’s plenty of programs for addiction etc. Regardless, it’s besides the point, and a poor attempt at deflecting.

deflecting! sorry to inform you once again, these in fact are the root causes of long term unemployment, fact!

ELM327

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hmmm i know a chap that lived in the uk for a while, hes showing signs of autism , depression and anxiety, and has a drug and alcohol dependency, he said when on the dole in the uk, many get involved in crime to survive, he did

I was referring to a lifetime on benefits being possible in both countries.
In the UK you can live your whole life on benefits, albeit the raw dollar amount is different than here (lower).


You can't do that in the US or most other European countries.

(ps: I have also autism, depression and anxiety. Thankfully I am medicated and do not have to self medicate with alcohol, which would have led to a possible dependancy)

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

deflecting! sorry to inform you once again, these in fact are the root causes of long term unemployment, fact!

It’s clearly deflecting. My point was that it’s enabling to give these people excessive amounts of cash to engage in self-destructive behaviour, so your comment is nothing more than ignoratio elenchi.

Wanderer78

ELM327 wrote: »

I was referring to a lifetime on benefits being possible in both countries.
In the UK you can live your whole life on benefits, albeit the raw dollar amount is different than here (lower).


You can't do that in the US or most other European countries.

(ps: I have also autism, depression and anxiety. Thankfully I am medicated and do not have to self medicate with alcohol, which would have led to a possible dependancy)

ive self medicated with alcohol, its very common with our disorder, along with all the usual, drugs, nicotine, food, sugar..........................

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

It’s clearly deflecting. My point was that it’s enabling to give these people excessive amounts of cash to engage in self-destructive behaviour, so your comment is nothing more than ignoratio elenchi.

oh ffs! please read up on this, theres plenty of research on the topic, you ll find similar if not the same issues in our prison populations

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

8. No disability payments for alcoholics, drug addicts or unproven back and neck injuries.

+1

And need to stamp out the free travel pass for deadbeats habitually "riding the rails". Most recent experience of many took place on Limerick to Galway bus last week. A baseball cap and tracksuit got on, flashed the card. No problem sir. As he walked by my seat I could hear the clang of cans in his bag. Wasn't long cracking one, only twenty minutes into the journey he projectile vomited everywhere. Driver accelerated and pegged him off when we reached Ennis. The lad started screaming "I'll sue ya, I'll f*ckin' sue ya!" And wouldn't he be awarded a handsome payout by our soft touch courts. Feral scrotes living it large in this country.

RandomViewer

Wanderer78 wrote: »

disorders such as developmental disorders, learning disabilities, mental health and addiction issues, personalty disorders and behavioral problems are common

But some here think everyone is faking it, I posted before about a neighbour who was unemployed his whole life, poor guy was too dim for any job and never received any assessment, died in his fifties.
Would be an idea to do some sort of assessment on clients to get an idea of IQ and possible spectrum issues, anger management problems and so on

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh ffs! please read up on this, theres plenty of research on the topic, you ll find similar if not the same issues in our prison populations

I don’t know if you can’t understand my point, or if you’re just intentionally ignoring with the war cry of “do some research”. Either way, my point still goes unanswered.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

I don’t know if you can’t understand my point, or if you’re just intentionally ignoring with the war cry of “do some research”. Either way, my point still goes unanswered.

again, ignoring complex psychological issues is probably more enabling, we ve decided the best way to deal with this is largely ignore, and give them a few quid, a lot of the time not enough to comfortably survive on

RandomViewer

Deleted User wrote: »

+1

And need to stamp out the free travel pass for deadbeats habitually "riding the rails". Most recent experience of many took place on Limerick to Galway bus last week. A baseball cap and tracksuit got on, flashed the card. No problem sir. As he walked by my seat I could hear the clang of cans in his bag. Wasn't long cracking one, only twenty minutes into the journey he projectile vomited everywhere. Driver accelerated and pegged him off when we reached Ennis. The lad started screaming "I'll sue ya, I'll f*ckin' sue ya!" And wouldn't he be awarded a handsome payout by our soft touch courts. Feral scrotes living it large in this country.

Going by your description he is a member of our indigenous ethnic group and let's put it bluntly no one wants to employ them, it's not worth the hassle, maybe turn Longford into a reservation for them or something,

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, ignoring complex psychological issues is probably more enabling, we ve decided the best way to deal with this is largely ignore, and give them a few quid, a lot of the time not enough to comfortably survive on

Yes, nobody said anything about ignoring these issues. Secondly, even if society did ignore these things, ignoring something doesn’t enable behaviour.

RandomViewer

Seem to have gotten a thumbs down for no reason,

gailforecast

RandomViewer wrote: »

Going by your description he is a member of our indigenous ethnic group and let's put it bluntly no one wants to employ them, it's not worth the hassle, maybe turn Longford into a reservation for them or something,

It already is being honest.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

Yes, nobody said anything about ignoring these issues. Secondly, even if society did ignore these things, ignoring something doesn’t enable behaviour.

oh god, if ive realized these issues, id imagine many others have to, they have, theres research, talk to mental health professionals, they ll confirm

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh god, if ive realized these issues, id imagine many others have to, they have, theres research, talk to mental health professionals, they ll confirm

Everyone realises that these issues exist. However I’m not sure that you actually understand what “enabling” is.

RandomViewer

gailforecast wrote: »

It already is being honest.

Give it official status, they will have to provide all the services themselves, use the Canadian or American native reservation as a template, schools, policing ,shops all run by the tribe, Virgin media could broadcast a live stream

Fred Cryton

gailforecast wrote: »

How do we stop generational welfare recipients?

Do CE schemes or other work programs work? Or is there another approach we can take which will be effective?

The real truth is that those who wanted to move up the social ladder have largely done so in previous generations and entered the lower middle class.



We are dealing with the remainder who didn't - people with low IQ's, low attention spans, and psychological disorders which means they act compulsively, instinctively and lack higher order mental abilities- particularly foresight.



These sorts of people will NEVER change, unless it is drilled into them that they have to work to feed themselves. If they can get away with not working, and being able to feed themselves, they will. So there's your answer. Bloated welfare.

What people don't realise is that very few people are milking the jobseekers schemes.

It's the Lone Parents, Carers and Disability Schemes that are the issue.

Its laughable that someone can get Lone Parents and then Carers to look after their own child(and the benefits that come with those schemes).
I have no issue with someone getting one of them but how can it be justified that you're giving someone a payment for being a lone parent and then a payment for looking after their own child. Mind boggling.

If you want the system changed, make it an election issue as the main parties haven't a hope of doing it willingly.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

Everyone realises that these issues exist. However I’m not sure that you actually understand what “enabling” is.

dont worry about, your not gonna get it, please continue with prejudice lined ridicule and shaming, im sure it ll resolve these issues!

Fred Cryton wrote: »

The real truth is that those who wanted to move up the social ladder have largely done so in previous generations and entered the lower middle class.



We are dealing with the remainder who didn't - people with low IQ's, low attention spans, and psychological disorders which means they act compulsively, instinctively and lack higher order mental abilities.



These sorts of people will NEVER change, unless it is drilled into them that they have to work to feed themselves. If they can get away with not working, and being able to feed themselves, they will. So there's your answer. Bloated welfare.

fcuking hell!

RandomViewer

Fred Cryton wrote: »

The real truth is that those who wanted to move up the social ladder have largely done so in previous generations and entered the lower middle class.



We are dealing with the remainder who didn't - people with low IQ's, low attention spans, and psychological disorders which means they act compulsively, instinctively and lack higher order mental abilities.



These sorts of people will NEVER change, unless it is drilled into them that they have to work to feed themselves. If they can get away with not working, and being able to feed themselves, they will. So there's your answer. Bloated welfare.

Poor Freddie ,stating the point and then missing it, the people you mention getting a few hundred a week keeps them docile, take it away and they'll likely turn to crime to replace it not work. What happens when they stick a syringe to your throat and take Mammys 5 series from you?

gailforecast

Wanderer78 wrote: »

dont worry about, your not gonna get it, please continue with prejudice lined ridicule and shaming, im sure it ll resolve these issues!l!

Pretty sure that you’re the one that doesn’t get it. Rather than debate the points actually presented, you make broad sweeping statement that don’t make sense.

You’re the classic example of “it’s easier to be righteous, than it is to be effective”.

Wanderer78

gailforecast wrote: »

Pretty sure that you’re the one that doesn’t get it. Rather than debate the points actually presented, you make broad sweeping statement that don’t make sense.

You’re the classic example of “it’s easier to be righteous, than it is to be effective”.

oh ffs, right whats your problem?

Biker79

Wanderer78 - there can't be that many people with the conditions you describe.
It's a small island nation with a high GDP.

You make it sound like its the rule rather than the exception to exist in a permanent state of affliction and helplessness.

Doesn't add up.

Wanderer78

Biker79 wrote: »

Wanderer78 - there can't be that many people with the conditions you describe.
It's a small island nation with a high GDP.

You make it sound like its the rule rather than the exception to exist in a permanent state of affliction and helplessness.

Doesn't add up.

with my own disorder, autism, some research is showing up to 80% of autistic people end up in long term unemployment situations. when you look into other complex disorders mentioned, you ll start to see them all popping up on the dole and amongst the prison populations. most of the cases on the dole would be undiagnosed. i was only diagnosed in my 30's, was told this is becoming common, as we re starting to understand these disorders more so, and the more milder cases such as myself are only being picked up now. baring in mind, public assessments virtually dont exist for these disorders, and private assessments can sometimes could cost a couple of grand or so, i suspect most long term unemployed dont have that. its also important to realise the hse has poor understanding of such disorders, in particular my own, and private treatment is where its at, again, probably not available to most on the dole. the hse's default is medication, a&e visit, then medication, a&e, physic ward, medication, morgue, more or less in that order

Biker79

Wanderer78 wrote: »

with my own disorder, autism, some research is showing up to 80% of autistic people end up in long term unemployment situations. when you look into other complex disorders mentioned, you ll start to see them all popping up on the dole and amongst the prison populations. most of the cases on the dole would be undiagnosed. i was only diagnosed in my 30's, was told this is becoming common, as we re starting to understand these disorders more so, and the more milder cases such as myself are only being picked up now. baring in mind, public assessments virtually dont exist for these disorders, and private assessments can sometimes could cost a couple of grand or so, i suspect most long term unemployed dont have that. its also important to realise the hse has poor understanding of such disorders, in particular my own, and private treatment is where its at, again, probably not available to most on the dole. the hse's default is medication, a&e visit, then medication, a&e, physic ward, medication, morgue, more or less in that order

Are you saying that there is something of an epidemic of undiagnosed mental disorders and that the medical community/ HSE/ government are saying nothing about it?

That also doesn't add up.

What they do say is that up to 70% of all health-related problems are lifestyle-related. That's according to a survey of General Practitioners. So what I don't get is...if the wealth transfer mechanisms of taxation and social welfare are proven to be adequate to provide a good standard of living, and if there is opportunity to better your circumstances from that base if you want.....why do these problems exist on ( from what I can see ) the scale that they do?

I'm not pointing the finger completely in the direction of these people. I believe the public services are also to a certain extent enablers of this status quo.

I just dont get it.

RandomViewer

Biker79 wrote: »

Wanderer78 - there can't be that many people with the conditions you describe.
It's a small island nation with a high GDP.

You make it sound like its the rule rather than the exception to exist in a permanent state of affliction and helplessness.

Doesn't add up.

Have a relative a teacher, they are given a list of all the students disorders, would scare you.
Also remember every large town used to have an asylum