Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Leroy42

It is actually quite incredible that a) it has even got to the situation where a POTUS has caused such damage to the institutions that he was even asked that question and b) that he answered by saying that there will not be a transfer of power so in that case there is nothing to worry about.

I fully except the previous supporters of Trump, based on him standing up for America, to come on here to demand Trump step down for failing to abide by the rules, I expect the Michigan Militia and other groups to demand that people do not vote for anyone which such distain for the greatest democracy in the world.

Trump gave a speech recently that said US woyld never become socialist or communist, but he seems to have left out the bit where he intends to remove democracy from the US.

Detritus70

^^^^^^
As I said, this is just a dumpster fire laid by Trump and diversionary tactic.
Trump is going down and he knows it. It wouldn't surprise me if he sought refuge in somewhere like Russia.

Leroy42

Detritus70 wrote: »

^^^^^^
As I said, this is just a dumpster fire laid by Trump and diversionary tactic.
Trump is going down and he knows it. It wouldn't surprise me if he sought refuge in somewhere like Russia.

Sure, but I think it is beholden on any citizen, or voter, in the US to vote out any person that even floats the idea.

Sure you can have policy differences across the divide, but this is risking the very lifeblood of America, the very essence of what it is to be an American. Democracy is at the very core of what the US believes makes it the greatest country ever.

To even play with putting that at risk is beyond dangerous and I cannot understand how anyone could even think of voting for such a person.

Gettin one over the Libtards, seeing CNN reaction of election night, keeping Sleepy Joe out. THey all fall into insignificance when faces with such a threat, even if that threat is nothing more than diversionary tactic.

Hammer Archer

I remember a time when a vice president misspelling the word "potato" was enough to greatly affect a presidential race.
That was less than 30 years ago. How on earth have we come to this?

Timberrrrrrrr

Hammer Archer wrote: »

I remember a time when a vice president misspelling the word "potato" was enough to greatly affect a presidential race.
That was less than 30 years ago. How on earth have we come to this?

A few years ago Fox had a collective fit when Obama dared to wear a tan suit and put dijon mustard on a burger.

Now Trump will not say if he is willing to agree to a peaceful transfer of power if/when he loses and we get tumbleweed from them.

America really is in for a scary four months.

Leroy42

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

A few years ago Fox had a collective fit when Obama dared to wear a tan suit and put dijon mustard on a burger.

Now Trump will not say if he is willing to agree to a peaceful transfer of power if/when he loses and we get tumbleweed from them.

America really is in for a scary four months.

I think it is in for far longer than that. The right have been emboldened by Trump. A loss by Trump will simply be used as more evidence that they are being held down by dark forces and more proof that they are correct.

This is not going away anytime soon, America is very quickly tearing itself apart, and I don't see anything or anybody that is going to reverse that.

They has been a complete break down of trust and understanding across the two positions, DNC and GOP, and it is increasing rather than reducing.

GWB stated that people are either with the US in the War on Terror or against them, and the same now holds true in the US domestically. You are either on one side or the other. There is no room for compromise as any compromise is been as a loss for one and a win for the other.

Turmp has exacerbated this. with constant cries that people are against him simply for asking questions on not agreeing with him

listermint

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think it is in for far longer than that. The right have been emboldened by Trump. A loss by Trump will simply be used as more evidence that they are being held down by dark forces and more proof that they are correct.

This is not going away anytime soon, America is very quickly tearing itself apart, and I don't see anything or anybody that is going to reverse that.

They has been a complete break down of trust and understanding across the two positions, DNC and GOP, and it is increasing rather than reducing.

GWB stated that people are either with the US in the War on Terror or against them, and the same now holds true in the US domestically. You are either on one side or the other. There is no room for compromise as any compromise is been as a loss for one and a win for the other.

Turmp has exacerbated this. with constant cries that people are against him simply for asking questions on not agreeing with him

America needs more parties! i think

PropJoe10

listermint wrote: »

America needs more parties! i think

Yep. A country cannot continue to function if it's a two party system that is so fundamentally divided on pretty much every issue. What we are currently watching is the not so slow destruction of the United States as a functioning country. And it's about to get a hell of a lot worse over the next 6 months.

marno21

Two parties who could agree on basic concepts like the truth would be a good start. Like the country that became the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world in the last century - a two party country. They were broadly in agreement about many issues such as the future and security of the country.

The fact that the coronavirus issue has been almost totally partisan is an awful bellwether for the country. If aliens invaded tomorrow then I feel there wouldn't be common ground. The fact that a person's view on 200,000 dead from Covid-19 is a partisan divide heightens this.

So many items to blame for it: Fox News, social media, Newt Gingrich, changing demographics, the Electoral College, Mitch McConnell. Same result.

On a lighter note:

##Snip## - No Memes please

Sums it up.

patsman07

It has the potential to descend into a mini-civil war, with Trump's gun-loving Q-anon delusional nutcases on one side and state forces on the other.

The Democrats need to use whatever influence they have to stop the rioting and keep the antifa nutcases quiet until the election. The more disorder there is between now and the election the more votes Trump will get. Democrats need as wide a winning margin as possible to make Trump's refusal to accept the result look ridiculous.

relax carry on

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think it is in for far longer than that. The right have been emboldened by Trump. A loss by Trump will simply be used as more evidence that they are being held down by dark forces and more proof that they are correct.

This is not going away anytime soon, America is very quickly tearing itself apart, and I don't see anything or anybody that is going to reverse that.

They has been a complete break down of trust and understanding across the two positions, DNC and GOP, and it is increasing rather than reducing.

GWB stated that people are either with the US in the War on Terror or against them, and the same now holds true in the US domestically. You are either on one side or the other. There is no room for compromise as any compromise is been as a loss for one and a win for the other.

Turmp has exacerbated this. with constant cries that people are against him simply for asking questions on not agreeing with him

I keep seeing parallels albeit at a much greater pace with the decline and fall of the Western Roman Empire. The political and economic turmoil. The vast spending on military versus civil infrastructure. All that's missing are the barbarians at the gates. Are we witnessing the decline of another Empire? This of course not saying everything is the same but everyday that goes by and Trump/The Republican party/Trumpists have undermined another pillar of US social/political/economic structures; all I think is the decline and fall of Rome.

Itssoeasy

It’s amazing that the phrase “peaceful transition of power” which if you’ve watched inaugurations of US presidents past is mentioned all the time in those broadcasts and both sides Democrat and republican use the phrase as if it’s holy now is meaningless. And we have in 2020 a US president saying it out loud on camera in front of god and everyone and some quarters see no issue with this. I can see from November 3rd 2020 till January 20th 2021 potentially a landfill fire if Trump loses. Trump will have the powers of the office and federal government behind him until January. The 2000 election and what followed was seen for years as a huge deal. Well 2020 will make it seem almost trivial.

breezy1985

Itssoeasy wrote: »

It’s amazing that the phrase “peaceful transition of power” which if you’ve watched inaugurations of US presidents past is mentioned all the time in those broadcasts and both sides Democrat and republican use the phrase as if it’s holy now is meaningless. And we have in 2020 a US president saying it out loud on camera in front of god and everyone and some quarters see no issue with this. I can see from November 3rd 2020 till January 20th 2021 potentially a landfill fire if Trump loses. Trump will have the powers of the office and federal government behind him until January. The 2000 election and what followed was seen for years as a huge deal. Well 2020 will make it seem almost trivial.

The reason these daft militias are allowed to exist under the constitution is to stop tyrannical governments and now we finally have a man threatening this and the militias show their true colours by supporting him and making a mockery of the whole reason for the gun laws they love so much.

I am not saying they should take Trump out just that they should at least be as vocal against him as they are with other matters

pixelburp

It's not just Trump though; he's merely a symptom, a vulgar expression of that resting anti-establishment hostility that has existed in every backwater Red State town for decades. The persistent paranoia towards Washington made manifest by every "Deep State" conspiracy now swilling about Fox & Sinclair Broadcasting. Facebook, fake news (and doubtlessly in future, Deep Fakes) has simply industrialised that sentiment, and connected previously isolated hotspots of militant Individualism. The totem for worship (bizarrely) becoming a New York Real Estate billionaire, which is an odd choice for messiah.

America as a unified entity was always a bit of a shaky myth, lasting up to but not past the county lines across certain states. I don't think it'll mutate into full blown Sepratist movements in my lifetime, but I also wouldn't be surprised if certain parts of the country become further isolated from Federal - or even State - control.

Water John

If the blue states get fed up with financially supporting the red states, it could simply mean three federations, blue in the West, blue in the East and red in the Middle/South, by far the poorest of the three.

Leroy42

Just to repost what Trump actually said at the presser last night.

"Get rid of the ballots and there won't be a transfer of power".

How more threatening and undemocratic does a person have to be before the people start to cry stop! The man is basically saying that he will simply ignore the ballot if it doesn't goes his way, which of course he stated back in 2016 as well. He is openly saying that he will ignore the result.

StringerBell

The normalization of his behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

Chips Lovell

relax carry on wrote: »

I keep seeing parallels albeit at a much greater pace with the decline and fall of the Western Roman Empire. The political and economic turmoil. The vast spending on military versus civil infrastructure. All that's missing are the barbarians at the gates. Are we witnessing the decline of another Empire? This of course not saying everything is the same but everyday that goes by and Trump/The Republican party/Trumpists have undermined another pillar of US social/political/economic structures; all I think is the decline and fall of Rome.

The closest parallels are really to the late Republic rather than the end of the Empire. Two rival political factions, one of which occasionally displays a genius for whipping up populist outrage to further its ends. A political system with a considerable amounts of checks and balances that could still be undermined by someone with the correct amount of political skill and money. If you read Plutarch or Appian, one of the most striking things is the realistation of how little politics has changed since then.

amandstu

Leroy42 wrote: »

Just to repost what Trump actually said at the presser last night.

"Get rid of the ballots and there won't be a transfer of power".

How more threatening and undemocratic does a person have to be before the people start to cry stop! The man is basically saying that he will simply ignore the ballot if it doesn't goes his way, which of course he stated back in 2016 as well. He is openly saying that he will ignore the result.

Does he have the support of his voters in this ?

Should he be debarred from the election for not accepting the result in advance?

The stakes are very high.

Is there a real risk he will be able to falsify the results and remain in power if action is not taken ahead of time?

Are the people free to vote for a dictatorship?

banie01

Chips Lovell wrote: »

The closest parallels are really to the late Republic rather than the end of the Empire. Two rival political factions, one of which occasionally displays a genius for whipping up populist outrage to further its ends. A political system with a considerable amounts of checks and balances that could still be undermined by someone with the correct amount of political skill and money. If you read Plutarch or Appian, one of the most striking things is the realistation of how little politics has changed since then.

Trump is a low rate Gracchi
That said it's a comparison I have made previously on this thread myself.

From the decline and corruption of the cursus honoram through to the emergence of someone trying to consolidate a dynastic hold on power.

Leroy42

amandstu wrote: »

Does he have the support of his voters in this ?

Should he be debarred from the election for not accepting the result in advance?

The stakes are very high.

Is there a real risk he will be able to falsify the results and remain in power if action is not taken ahead of time?

Are the people free to vote for a dictatorship?

Most people simply are either not paying attention, or refusing to accept the reality. Trump is given an excuse on everything. He didn't mean it, he was joking, it's just campaigning (he said this from the WH) and of course many of them simply are looking to their own concerns and wants rather than consider the bigger picture.

If a person has publicly stated that he won't accept any result unless it is the one they want they are they not effectively ruling themselves out of participation in a democratic election?

Sean.3516

Water John wrote: »

'Biden literally said he was picking a woman for the sake of picking a woman' Sean
Biden picked a woman to reflect the diversity of the people of the US, in the knowledge that he a selection of women who could well fulfil the role.

If you pick a woman to "reflect the diversity of the people of the US", how is that not picking a woman for the sake of picking a woman?

Chips Lovell

banie01 wrote: »

Trump is a low rate Gracchi
That said it's a comparison I have made previously on this thread myself.

Yep, the Gracchi are always who come to mind for me too.

Mullaghteelin

Bozacke wrote: »

Sean, Are you Sean Hannity, because you’re certainly using an awful lot of Fox News twisted and inaccurate talking points. I really think you need to lay off Fox and maybe watch some RTÉ news and try and find out what’s really going on.

God almighty!
On US politics, RTÉ news is an uninformitive, uninquisitive dumbed down rehash of selected stories from CNN.
There is a world of choice for international news nowadays, no need to go near RTE.

banie01

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Yep, the Gracchi are always who come to mind for me too.

In his populist appeal Trump mirrors them.
In his policies, I am stunned that those who suffer most from his policy aims are his loudest and most strident supporters.

The Gracchi's land reform was IMO a real driver of the move towards empire and the expansion of Rome in allowing a viable pension for retired soldiery.
A more definite reward for soldiery, than potential war booty.
It was a policy hugely exploited by the Triumvirs in their pursuit of sole rule.

Trump hasn't done similar, in the GOP's holding up of stimulus whilst still being confident of voting thru a SC judge he is harming his core support of voters.
Yet they love him.

That Cincinnatus was seen by many of the founders as the ideal man, that Washington laying down power is seen by many still as indicative of the importance of a free Republic stepping away from monarchy and tyranny?

Is a point that is all too easily lost on the GOP.
It's the march of history and the patterns of the past repeated, that make the US and it's real-politik quite terrifying at the moment.

duploelabs

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

God almighty!
On US politics, RTÉ news is an uninformitive, uninquisitive dumbed down rehash of selected stories from CNN.
There is a world of choice for international news nowadays, no need to go near RTE.

Are you calling them fake news? What other domestic sites would warrant reading for international news?

Sean.3516

VinLieger wrote: »

Firstly that's an absurd statement.

Secondly its not a rule of politics, you've co-opted a quote from an american law professor to make yourself seem edgy and cool. It has nothing to do with politics, he uses it to teach his law students about invoking the power of law.

Thirdly the reason its not a rule of politics is because it would only be anything close to applicable in countries like the united states that have more guns than people.

I wasn't quoting anybody in particular, at least I didn't think I was. I haven't the foggiest idea who that professor is.

Also it happens to be correct. What makes a law, a law is the threat of force against people who disobey it. And whether the people making the laws (or the people following them) realise it or not, the final measure of enforcement of every law on the books is a loaded gun.

Let's say I get a parking ticket and I refuse to pay it. I get a fine. Let's say I refuse to pay the fine. Maybe I get a bigger fine or maybe I get a court summons. Let's say I get a bigger fine and I refuse to pay it and I get a court summons. I refuse to go to court. Now the police will have to arrest me. But I don't want to go. So the police have to use physical force to arrest me. Let's say I resist arrest. If I resist arrest such that I become a deadly threat to the people trying to arrest me, they have to shoot me.

Obviously I'm not advocating violent resistance over a parking ticket. I'm pointing out that one of the reasons we obey laws we may not want to obey is that laws are backed by increasing gradations of enforcement. And the final gradation is always a loaded gun.

amandstu

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Yep, the Gracchi are always who come to mind for me too.

Can you expand about this? I did learn about the Gracchi many years ago but have forgotten most of it. What are the parallels ?

Edit: see banie01 has taken up the issue.

Quin_Dub

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I wasn't quoting anybody in particular, at least I didn't think I was. I haven't the foggiest idea who that professor is.

Also it happens to be correct. What makes a law, a law is the threat of force against people who disobey it. And whether the people making the laws (or the people following them) realise it or not, the final measure of enforcement of every law on the books is a loaded gun.

Let's say I get a parking ticket and I refuse to pay it. I get a fine. Let's say I refuse to pay the fine. Maybe I get a bigger fine or maybe I get a court summons. Let's say I get a bigger fine and I refuse to pay it and I get a court summons. I refuse to go to court. Now the police will have to arrest me. But I don't want to go. So the police have to use physical force to arrest me. Let's say I resist arrest. If I resist arrest such that I become a deadly threat to the people trying to arrest me, they have to shoot me.

Obviously I'm not advocating violent resistance over a parking ticket. I'm pointing out that one of the reasons we obey laws we may not want to obey is that laws are backed by increasing gradations of enforcement. And the final gradation is always a loaded gun.

And a key part of the problem in the US is the alacrity with which they skip to the end.

Sean.3516

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you think there are no qualified men that woyld rank alongside her?

Of course not. Trump's original list, contained many men.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Good grief, you have even given in to the PC nonsense just to stick by your guy.

How is it giving in to the PC nonsense? I just said that she was considered for the Supreme Court in 2018 when it would have been a man she was replacing rather than another woman.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Biden does it, typical leftie pc rubbish. Trump does it and she is simply the best person for the job.

When did Trump say that he would be picking a woman because they were a woman? That's literally what Biden said.
What Trump said was that his list had been narrowed down to two specific women. A list originally containing many men.

Why are you assuming that Trump is only picking a woman in order to be PC?