The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

The Raging Bile Duct

gimli2112 wrote: »

Druckmann called on his own experiences with violence when writing this, according to Wiki. He wanted the player to experience the thirst for revenge before finally realising the consequences of their actions. He was aware some on the team didn't like what he was doing here and how he was going about it.

My problem is I can't relate to the procrastination, the back and forth of will I won't I. I have to feel if I'd made the decision to go down this path, endured all Ellie did to get there I wouldn't change my mind, at the last second due to a sudden flashback. It just makes no sense to me. After finding her why cut her down? Just stab her if that's the intention.

Of course I'm royally pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of all this but that's just another issue. I think I've always not liked the story it's just I'm coming to appreciate by how much.

I wouldn't call it procrastination, it's internal conflict. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do in a situation and what would actually happen if that situation became a reality - obviously the scenario in the game is never going to happen to any of us but I hope you get the point.

In terms of being pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of it all, that seems a tad ridiculous. It's Joel's actions that set the whole thing in motion.

Kirby

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I wouldn't call it procrastination, it's internal conflict. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do in a situation and what would actually happen if that situation became a reality - obviously the scenario in the game is never going to happen to any of us but I hope you get the point.

In terms of being pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of it all, that seems a tad ridiculous. It's Joel's actions that set the whole thing in motion.

I would argue trying to murder a child was what set the whole thing in motion.

Patato, Patato I guess.

gimli2112

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I wouldn't call it procrastination, it's internal conflict. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do in a situation and what would actually happen if that situation became a reality - obviously the scenario in the game is never going to happen to any of us but I hope you get the point.

In terms of being pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of it all, that seems a tad ridiculous. It's Joel's actions that set the whole thing in motion.

I'm not trying to change your mind just explain why you're wrong!

I'm joking but the reality is a lot of this is down to preference and personal opinion. There's massive coincidences and plotholes throughout in my opinion. I'm never going to be happy with how this concludes and that's just something I have to live with.

In terms of full disclosure I must admit I have never gone on a murderous rampage of revenge myself.

Vicxas

Wow this game just keeps going. Was almost sure it was going to end on the farm but here I am traipsing around California

The Raging Bile Duct

Kirby wrote: »

I would argue trying to murder a child was what set the whole thing in motion.

Patato, Patato I guess.

Tbf, both Ellie and Abbey state in the game that they would sacrifice themselves for the greater good and Ellie's relationship with Joel is estranged because of what he did to save her. Joel and Ellie are only making their first, tentative steps towards reconciliation when he is murdered by Abbey.

I think the real problem with the plot is that in this Covid world, most people now have a better understanding of the complexities of creating a vaccine. That the vaccine created from Ellie's sacrifice seems completely unlikely. But that's something that really wouldn't have been an issue when writing the original TLOU.

Penn

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Tbf, both Ellie and Abbey state in the game that they would sacrifice themselves for the greater good and Ellie's relationship with Joel is estranged because of what he did to save her. Joel and Ellie are only making their first, tentative steps towards reconciliation when he is murdered by Abbey.

I think the real problem with the plot is that in this Covid world, most people now have a better understanding of the complexities of creating a vaccine. That the vaccine created from Ellie's sacrifice seems completely unlikely. But that's something that really wouldn't have been an issue when writing the original TLOU.

I've always figured that it's extremely unlikely Ellie is the only one immune, but that most wouldn't know they're immune due to either not being bitten or being killed in other ways before ever finding out.

Obviously it'd be rare given how many people do get infected, but the idea that Ellie's the only one in the world never made sense to me anyway.

BruteStock

The MGS2 comparison doesn't work for me. Most playing that game at the time kinda knew or had a suspicion that Iroquois Pliskin was Snake and it provided a great moment in gaming when he eventually revealed himself. Every aspect of Kojima's vision dovetailed beautifully at that point. It was a thoughtful and intricately crafted twist , unlike Joel's contrived death played for shock value.

MGS2 was also a complex and extremely intelligent piece of postmodern art. Its themes and ideas are too highfalutin and thought- provoking to be brought to film. But if TLOU2 was a movie , it would be Revenge 2019 - a basic revenge tale devoid of any depth or substance.

I think this game actually has a bit more in common with Snake Eater in terms of the main character getting destroyed early by somebody they thought was on their side. The difference here is that its almost a tear shedding moment when the player begins to understand the reasons and motive as to why The Boss betrayed them.
Crafting a story that asks the player/viewer to understand the antagonists POV takes a degree of skill , nuance and even compassion. Druckmann clearly did not have it.
But comparing his effort to Snake Eater is a tad unfair as that game is a work of genius and is arguably the greatest game ever made.

Vicxas

I can see where people are coming from with the bait and switch but I think it worked well. It didn't take away from the game for me.

I did not enjoy playing as Abby however. She's just an unlikeable person who Naughty Dog tried to get you to empathise with.

I got her killed a lot when fighting in the theatre against Ellie.

Zero-Cool

I was all for the tomfoolery with the trailers. I hate trailers for things but I like to see how a game/film looks so I thought it was a positive that they did the fake trailers but then I didn't decide on buying the game because of trailers.

Penn

BruteStock wrote: »

Crafting a story that asks the player/viewer to understand the antagonists POV takes a degree of skill , nuance and even compassion. Druckmann clearly did not have it.

I think part of what Druckmann was doing though, was showing that Abby isn't simply the antagonist. She has an equal claim to revenge that Ellie does. Her story mirrors Ellie's in almost every way. They are each other's antagonists, the only reason we see Abby as "the antagonist" is because of our pre-existing connection to Joel.

It's about perspective. However Abby reaches a point of letting go of her desire for revenge and let Ellie go before Ellie can get to the same point. If anything, Ellie is arguably the most antagonistic of the two. Abby kills Joel and lets Tommy and Ellie live. Ellie kills all Abby's friends who stand in her way to get to Abby. Abby kills Jesse and almost kills Tommy, and has Dina and Ellie completely at her mercy, and again lets them go. Ellie still goes after her again and seeing what she's been put through since, again tries to kill her even though Abby wants to leave.

People side with Ellie because of their existing connection to Ellie and Joel, but after playing the game I'd be hard pushed to call Abby the antagonist of the story.

gimli2112

It's all about perspective. Like that skit of the two Nazis asking each other "Are we the baddies?"

I'm quite comfortable with the side I'm on.

The Raging Bile Duct

Penn wrote: »

I think part of what Druckmann was doing though, was showing that Abby isn't simply the antagonist. She has an equal claim to revenge that Ellie does. Her story mirrors Ellie's in almost every way. They are each other's antagonists, the only reason we see Abby as "the antagonist" is because of our pre-existing connection to Joel.

It's about perspective. However Abby reaches a point of letting go of her desire for revenge and let Ellie go before Ellie can get to the same point. If anything, Ellie is arguably the most antagonistic of the two. Abby kills Joel and lets Tommy and Ellie live. Ellie kills all Abby's friends who stand in her way to get to Abby. Abby kills Jesse and almost kills Tommy, and has Dina and Ellie completely at her mercy, and again lets them go. Ellie still goes after her again and seeing what she's been put through since, again tries to kill her even though Abby wants to leave.

People side with Ellie because of their existing connection to Ellie and Joel, but after playing the game I'd be hard pushed to call Abby the antagonist of the story.

Abbey always had revenge as her goal - still pursuing leads when everyone else had given up - so when she finally had her chance she did it coldy and clinically. She killed Joel and no one else. Eliie's revenge is raw, visceral and immediate and it's reflected in how she takes it out on all of Abbey's friends as she makes her way to Abbey. Ellie is also dealing with the grief of losing Joel after starting to make amends towards repairing their relationship.

With Abbey and Ellie, you're seeing all aspects of the corrosive nature of revenge. Apart from the ludonarrative dissonance that you're inevitably going to get with the Naughty Dog style of game, I think the themes throughout are handled well.

Leroy42

I thought Ellie actually went on a similar path to Joel from the 1st game. A nice person before a traumatic event who then lets that event cloud all her previous morals. She turns from the nice, jovial teenager that we knew from TLOU, into a selfish, bloodthirsty, vengeful, uncaring and emotional shut off wreck. She is willing to toss aside anybody that stands in her way. She expects everyone to do as she wants, but is unwilling to even listen to anybody else.

She continually says she loves Dina, but it seems she really loves that Dina is there for her rather than loving Dina. She continually dismissed Dinas concerns, to the point that when she hears of Dinas pregnacy she cares little for Dina and only that this causes her a problem on her quest.

Ellie becomes a pretty unlikelable person. Abby is, if you remove our attachment to Joel and Ellie, a far more likeable person. She also suffered a traumatic event, which lead her to the point where she is solely focused on revenge. She has become a soldier, trained hard to become as good as she can be, but once she gets her revenge on Joel she listens to Owen and lets Ellie live.

She then shows that again in the theatre. Somewhat like Joel, Lev allows her to open up and see that there is more to this world than simply surviving. That things can be changed. But Ellie is incapable to that.

Ellie ends up broken, alone, can't even play the guitar which was her last physial connection to Joel. She has nothing to live for. The world have beaten her down, made her a monster. Abby has moved on. She has a new live with Lev, she is done with fighting and revenge.

It is a troubling story from the players POV but we like Ellie and thought Joel might have got saved from who he had become. But Joel pays the price for decisions he made, and Ellie changes to a different person, a person with little redeeming features.

BruteStock

Penn wrote: »

People side with Ellie because of their existing connection to Ellie and Joel, but after playing the game I'd be hard pushed to call Abby the antagonist of the story.

Well , I never mentioned anything about Eille because you can dislike both Ellie and Abby at the same time. As you said , there is no side that really comes off as better than the other.
Abby is given a decent side quest to show the player she is a good person whereas Ellie was presented as an unlikable , irrational and vengeful person. It was all was by design and it wasn't subtle.

People dislike Abby specifically for how she ended Joel. There had to be an internal conflict and a sense of remorse within Abby if the player is expected to empathise with her by the end. The lead-up to that scene had to be more thoughtful , measured and the dialogue had to be more substantial. After all , Joel had just saved her life and there was a valid reason why he killed her father.
There could have been a deep conversation between the two before Abby reluctantly mercy kills him. What we got was a line of simplistic dialogue before Abby tortures and golfs him to death.
Nobody was ever going to come around and sympathise with Abby after that. The skill and craft to make such an ambitious premise work just wan't there.

The Raging Bile Duct

BruteStock wrote: »

Nobody was ever going to come around and sympathise with Abby after that. The skill and craft to make such an ambitious premise work just wan't there.

Nobody? I sympathised with her in the end and would actually like to see part 3 be about her and Lev. Part of me thinks Ellie's story is all done.

Leroy42

BruteStock wrote: »

Well , I never mentioned anything about Eille because you can dislike both Ellie and Abby at the same time. As you said , there is no side that really comes off as better than the other.
Abby is given a decent side quest to show the player she is a good person whereas Ellie was presented as an unlikable , irrational and vengeful person. It was all was by design and it wasn't subtle.

People dislike Abby specifically for how she ended Joel. There had to be an internal conflict and a sense of remorse within Abby if the player is expected to empathise with her by the end. The lead-up to that scene had to be more thoughtful , measured and the dialogue had to be more substantial. After all , Joel had just saved her life and there was a valid reason why he killed her father.
There could have been a deep conversation between the two before Abby reluctantly mercy kills him. What we got was a line of simplistic dialogue before Abby tortures and golfs him to death.
Nobody was ever going to come around and sympathise with Abby after that. The skill and craft to make such an ambitious premise work just wan't there.

But after playing the game we know exactly why Abby acted like that. SHe and her friends traveling across the country to find Joel. The man who killed her father, plenty of their friends and colleagues, and denied the world the chance for a cure.

Him saving her would not be seen as some redeeming feature, simply a piece of luck. Mercy killing? She hated the man. Despised him, had years of pent up hatred, disgust and saw him as possibly the worst person in the world, certainly someone to blame for what is going on. Add to that the fight between the Scars and WLF, which is really only still going because the world is still the way it is and you can fully understand Abby's reasoning.

You don't have to agree but surely you can sympathize, particularly given the world they live in? How is it any different that sympathizing with Joel because he lost his daughter? Joel made the decision to save Ellie purely because of that heartbreak, he killed multiple fireflies and possibly condemned the world to forever stay in the way it is with the infected. Yet you struggle to understand why Abby would kill him?

Ellie is harder to understand. She hated Joel for the decision he made, yet when Abby killed him, and she knows very well the killing he had done in his past, all she can think of is revenge. But it seems it is more revenge because she didn't get to make her piece with Joel rather than Joel actually being killed. She mentions at one that that if the infected got Abby it wouldn't be justice, want she meant was it wouldn't be justice on her terms.

Zero-Cool

Abby spent years in training and tracking to do exactly what she did to Joel and she was justified. I love Joel and Ellie but I also love Abby and that could have only happened if the story was strong enough. If people refuse to see anything past Joel and Ellie, that's on them but the story is there to support the empathy for Abby whether anyone thinks it's forced or not.

BruteStock

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Nobody? I sympathised with her in the end and would actually like to see part 3 be about her and Lev. Part of me thinks Ellie's story is all done.

Would you say people mostly have a favourable opinion of Abby?

The Raging Bile Duct

BruteStock wrote: »

Would you say people mostly have a favourable opinion of Abby?

I don't know. I haven't been scouring the internet trying to get a consensus. I'm just giving my opinion based on my playthrough of the game.

Markitron

BruteStock wrote: »

Would you say people mostly have a favourable opinion of Abby?

As a character in the story I have a very favourable opinion of her and her place in it. I didn't love her like Joel and Ellie, but I don't think I was supposed to. I certainly understood why she did everything that she did, including killing Joel.

BruteStock

Leroy42 wrote: »

But after playing the game we know exactly why Abby acted like that. SHe and her friends traveling across the country to find Joel. The man who killed her father, plenty of their friends and colleagues, and denied the world the chance for a cure.

Him saving her would not be seen as some redeeming feature, simply a piece of luck. Mercy killing? She hated the man. Despised him, had years of pent up hatred, disgust and saw him as possibly the worst person in the world, certainly someone to blame for what is going on. Add to that the fight between the Scars and WLF, which is really only still going because the world is still the way it is and you can fully understand Abby's reasoning.

You don't have to agree but surely you can sympathize, particularly given the world they live in? How is it any different that sympathizing with Joel because he lost his daughter? Joel made the decision to save Ellie purely because of that heartbreak, he killed multiple fireflies and possibly condemned the world to forever stay in the way it is with the infected. Yet you struggle to understand why Abby would kill him?

Ellie is harder to understand. She hated Joel for the decision he made, yet when Abby killed him, and she knows very well the killing he had done in his past, all she can think of is revenge. But it seems it is more revenge because she didn't get to make her piece with Joel rather than Joel actually being killed. She mentions at one that that if the infected got Abby it wouldn't be justice, want she meant was it wouldn't be justice on her terms.

Abby did what she had to do. But she was never going to be redeemable for how he did it. That was the point.

The Raging Bile Duct

BruteStock wrote: »

Abby did what she had to do. But she was never going to be redeemable for how he did it. That was the point.

She's probably more redeemable than Ellie for how she acted afterwards up until the very end of the game. Joel's actions resulted in the death of her father and seem to have led to the dissolution of the Fireflies meaning she had lost everything. When she had finished with Joel, she didn't do anything to Ellie or Tommy. Compare that to the wholesale slaughter Tommy and Ellie committed.

I don't agree with Ellie no longer being likeable. She ultimately showed she still has the ability to forgive on reflection of the ending.

I thoroughly enjoyed the game to note.

I actually have no problems with Abby being a focal point of the plot per say but there are some nuances to reflect why I ultimately don't care for her all that much. (Which is ok).

Abby held a knife to Dinas throat and Elllie tells her she is pregnant.
Literally next words out of Abbys mouth is "good".
To me that's sadistic and too far.
It was bad enough she kills a beloved character.(which I was ok with too).
I also thought she killed Tommy. Was raging but was so happy he survived.

My dislike for Abby is genuine and is because of her actions not because I had to play as her.

Ellie showed visual remorse when she realised she killed a pregnant woman. So again you can see the difference in the character states.

Not liking her character is actually fine for me as ultimately Ellies story arc and her forgiveness of both Joel and ultimately sparing Abby gives a good indication and conclusion that she still has heart.

Ellie, Joel, Dina and Tommy are who I cared for the most.

Penn

BruteStock wrote: »

People dislike Abby specifically for how she ended Joel. There had to be an internal conflict and a sense of remorse within Abby if the player is expected to empathise with her by the end. The lead-up to that scene had to be more thoughtful , measured and the dialogue had to be more substantial. After all , Joel had just saved her life and there was a valid reason why he killed her father.
There could have been a deep conversation between the two before Abby reluctantly mercy kills him. What we got was a line of simplistic dialogue before Abby tortures and golfs him to death.
Nobody was ever going to come around and sympathise with Abby after that. The skill and craft to make such an ambitious premise work just wan't there.

I disagree. Seeing her backstory I think it's very easy to sympathise with her, and again her desire for revenge against Joel completely matches Ellie's desire for revenge against Abby. Joel not only killed her father, but her whole way of life too because the Fireflies pretty much disbanded after that. She lost everything she knew, everything she had (except Owen), and also a decent chance at finding some sort of vaccine for the virus. Joel took.... everything.

There was a valid reason why Joel killed her father... from Joel's persective. Abby even walks in when her father is being asked if he'd sacrifice her if it meant finding a cure and it's implied he would, as difficult as it would be. But she doesn't love him any less because of it because she knows too it would be the right thing to do. Joel did the wrong thing. The right thing for him, but not for everyone else. There's nothing he could have or would have said to Abby that would have changed anything.

So from the start of Abby's section, it's hard to sympathise with her. But as you progress with her I think it becomes a lot easier to sypathise with her than with Ellie. She lets Ellie and Tommy live after killing Joel even though Ellie is swearing revenge. Abby is willing to give up her love for Owen so he can be with Mel. The repeated use of her running down the hospital corridor showing how her mentality changes from trauma (her father's death), to a desire to help others (Yara and Lev), to finding inner peace (her father being alive in the room). Her willingness to go against the Wolves to help Yara and Lev, including facing her biggest fears. Letting Ellie and Dina (and Tommy, unclear if she knew she hadn't killed him) live even after Ellie killed all her friends and the man she loved. Becoming like a sister to Lev who lost his entire family and forming a bond with him similar to how Joel bonded with Ellie.

By the end, seeing her strung up like that, trying to save and get away with Lev and not wanting to fight Ellie... I'd struggle to not have sympathy for her. I let her up twice in the final fight because I didn't want to finish her off as Ellie (without knowing Ellie would end up letting her go).

It's perspective. We see Abby as the antagonist from the start because we see her through Ellie's eyes, and she kills Joel without mercy. But she did nothing worse than Joel did in TLOU1 or Ellie does in the first half of the game. The only difference is, we liked Joel.

The Raging Bile Duct

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't agree with Ellie no longer being likeable. She ultimately showed she still has the ability to forgive on reflection of the ending.

I thoroughly enjoyed the game to note.

I actually have no problems with Abby being a focal point of the plot per say but there are some nuances to reflect why I ultimately don't care for her all that much. (Which is ok).

Abby held a knife to Dinas throat and Elllie tells her she is pregnant.
Literally next words out of Abbys mouth is "good".
To me that's sadistic and too far.
It was bad enough she kills a beloved character.(which I was ok with too).
I also thought she killed Tommy. Was raging but was so happy he survived.

My dislike for Abby is genuine and is because of her actions not because I had to play as her.

Ellie showed visual remorse when she realised she killed a pregnant woman. So again you can see the difference in the character states.

Not liking her character is actually fine for me as ultimately Ellies story arc and her forgiveness of both Joel and then Abby gives a good indication and conclusion that she still has heart.

Ellie, Joel, Dina and Tommy are who I cared for the most.

Tbf, Abbey holding Dina and saying 'Good' is not long after she discovered the bodies of Owen and Mel so it's understandable that she'd be in an 'eye for an eye' state of mind. Lev snaps her out of it.

Penn

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Tbf, Abbey holding Dina and saying 'Good' is not long after she discovered the bodies of Owen and Mel so it's understandable that she'd be in an 'eye for an eye' state of mind. Lev snaps her out of it.

Agreed, Ellie killed Mel who was heavily pregnant. Abby would have no idea that Ellie did it somewhat accidentally without knowing she was pregnant and felt remorseful about it. From her perspective Ellie likely killed her regardless (as she'd done with all Abby's other friends). So Abby saying "Good" and being about to kill the pregnant Dina was just "I'm going to do to her what you did to Mel", but Lev pulled her back from the brink and Abby let her live.

BruteStock

Penn wrote: »

I disagree. Seeing her backstory I think it's very easy to sympathise with her, and again her desire for revenge against Joel completely matches Ellie's desire for revenge against Abby. Joel not only killed her father, but her whole way of life too because the Fireflies pretty much disbanded after that. She lost everything she knew, everything she had (except Owen), and also a decent chance at finding some sort of vaccine for the virus. Joel took.... everything.

There was a valid reason why Joel killed her father... from Joel's persective. Abby even walks in when her father is being asked if he'd sacrifice her if it meant finding a cure and it's implied he would, as difficult as it would be. But she doesn't love him any less because of it because she knows too it would be the right thing to do. Joel did the wrong thing. The right thing for him, but not for everyone else. There's nothing he could have or would have said to Abby that would have changed anything.

So from the start of Abby's section, it's hard to sympathise with her. But as you progress with her I think it becomes a lot easier to sypathise with her than with Ellie. She lets Ellie and Tommy live after killing Joel even though Ellie is swearing revenge. Abby is willing to give up her love for Owen so he can be with Mel. The repeated use of her running down the hospital corridor showing how her mentality changes from trauma (her father's death), to a desire to help others (Yara and Lev), to finding inner peace (her father being alive in the room). Her willingness to go against the Wolves to help Yara and Lev, including facing her biggest fears. Letting Ellie and Dina (and Tommy, unclear if she knew she hadn't killed him) live even after Ellie killed all her friends and the man she loved. Becoming like a sister to Lev who lost his entire family and forming a bond with him similar to how Joel bonded with Ellie.

By the end, seeing her strung up like that, trying to save and get away with Lev and not wanting to fight Ellie... I'd struggle to not have sympathy for her. I let her up twice in the final fight because I didn't want to finish her off as Ellie (without knowing Ellie would end up letting her go).

It's perspective. We see Abby as the antagonist from the start because we see her through Ellie's eyes, and she kills Joel without mercy. But she did nothing worse than Joel did in TLOU1 or Ellie does in the first half of the game. The only difference is, we liked Joel.

That outlook is predicated purely on the belief that Joel did the wrong thing for saving Ellie. I feel Jerry was wrong for wanting to crack Ellie's skull open for a vaccine that may or may not have made any difference. Abby father was going to murder a kid in cold blood. A decision like that can never be the right one.
Most people feel Joel made the right choice.
Jeremy Jahns gives his opinion on why Joel did the right thing.

https://youtu.be/sMSlH802M34?t=556

I think the acceptance that not everyone has to have some affection towards Abby can still enjoy the game and the overall narrative.

She served her purpose for me and had some likeable moments but ultimately not important on reflection. Some people hate her some love her as a character. This is all acceptable.

It could turn into a back and fourth if I pointed out that Abby actively slaughters friends and family she was literally working and living with aka the Wolves literally days later.

And makes it some shock scenario that the wolves have come to kill the scars (a group who torture and hang their victims).

And then slaughters them all anyway to protect a child. Joel style per say.

The one man she hates the most she is just as bad or worse than him in the things she has done.

gimli2112

If they release TLOU3 Abby's story. I will take the ancient art of manbaby to a whole new level.