The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

SMC92Ian

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So, I’m finally done and Last of Us 2 is… grand. It really should have been so much more than grand. All that money, the efforts of everyone involved, the hours or overtime the developers had to endure just to make a game that’s… grand.

I’ll start with the gameplay because it’s where I don’t have many issues with the game. Being a bit cynical about the triple A industry’s penchant for using the same gameplay templates I was surprised how much I enjoyed the core gameplay loop. The shooting is fine, nothing special. Combined with the stealth and the gadgets though and it elevates it. I enjoyed playing Ellie more, but I think I just loved the proximity mines way too much. The set pieces mix things up just enough to keep things interesting, it’s no Resident Evil 4 but the combat never bored me. After the very slow 2 hour opening that was awfully paced once the game opens up proper and lets you play it, I was having a lot of fun.

Then there’s the writing and this is where all the problems are. First the world and setting. The infected feel completely perfunctory. They are there because they were in the first game, but this game could have been set in a world without them and you wouldn’t know they were there. They are window dressing and just serve to mix up combat situations. They are used so little that I kind of wonder why they are such a threat as they seem on the verge of extinction.

And then there’s the main plot and characters. Ellie is just a complete psychopath. She feels like a caricature of a real person. She is such a blood crazed psycho that she destroys that suspension of disbelief. Abby comes across better, but her redemption arc feels so forced and basically amounts to a save the dog moment. Both leave so many bodies in their wake that it’s hard to emphasis with either of them. None of the character arcs were interesting and their struggles were either boring in the case of Abby or made no sense in the case of Ellie’s murderous rampage.

My biggest issue however is the theme of the game. The game spends 20+ hours telling its story and, in the end, basically says nothing. Violence is bad, cycle of violence whatever. We all know violence is bad and it takes everything away from both characters. Yawn. It’s not interesting. Compare that to the Last of Us which is an interesting character study. Ellie and Joel’s rocky relationship grows throughout the game and Joel is fascinating as a deeply flawed character given a chance at redemption. He is presented with a choice at the end of the game where both options are awful. We can’t say the choice he made was right or wrong but the reason he made it, his own selfish desires, was reprehensible and the game is left with Joel’s selfishness and lies going to eventually ruin the relationship that was built over the game. It’s a brilliant and subtle character study that is completely at odds with the sledgehammer approach of violence = bad of the sequel.

And to cap it all off this all happened because Abby’s dad was a drama queen about the bullet I put in his toe.

And the biggest tragedy of the Last of Us 2 is that it shouldn’t have been made. It adds nothing to the ending of the original game which ended brilliantly where it should have. It should have been called Part 3 because like the Godfather Part 3 it’s an unsatisfying cap stone to a saga that didn’t need one. During the PS3 era we had Naughty Dog give us two new IPs, Uncharted and the Last of Us. The PS4 era had Naughty Dog give us two sequels to these series, Uncharted 4 and the Last of Us Part 2 (disclaimer, I’ve not played Lost Legacy) that felt shoehorned into their respective series. Both series main plotlines had reach their logical conclusion and the sequels feel unsatisfying and out of place in a series that didn’t require them to be there. They added nothing.

Now imagine Naughty Dog were given the freedom to make something new, the game they wanted to make. I really do feel that they were mandated to make new entries in both series. There’s a huge amount of talent on show in the making of both games and it’s a shame it was kind of wasted on Uncharted 4 and the Last of Us Part 2.

ND did make the games they wanted, they've wanted to do TLOU2 for nearly 7 years now. I think the writing is a big meh, they ****ed over the Uncharted series trying to shoehorn in Troy Baker as Neil has a huge boner for the guy. Oh Nate look your brother... they done the same for Lost Legacy forcing in the Laura Bailey character from 4 out of nowhere to team with Chloe, the story isn't to serve the characters the story is to serve Neil's friends in real life.

Retr0gamer

SMC92Ian wrote: »

ND did make the games they wanted, they've wanted to do TLOU2 for nearly 7 years now.

I honestly question if Neil did. I mean he is hardly going to say in an interview to promote the game that he didn't want to make the sequel but was mandated to by the company that employs him. Maybe someday we will find out the truth behind it.

Laura Bailey in anything is fine by me, she's an amazing actress. Been a fan since Nier.

Greyfox

Retr0gamer wrote: »

And the biggest tragedy of the Last of Us 2 is that it shouldn’t have been made. It adds nothing to the ending of the original game which ended brilliantly where it should have.

TLOU2 was always going to get made due to the success of the original, I find one sequel is expected and fine these days even if the story to this is a little messy, they at least waited a few years before making this sequel. I find it's only when you get to a 3rd or 4th game in a series like uncharted that things usually start to get stale.

KerranJast

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I honestly question if Neil did. I mean he is hardly going to say in an interview to promote the game that he didn't want to make the sequel but was mandated to by the company that employs him. Maybe someday we will find out the truth behind it.

He said he approached Troy & Ashley with the rough plot idea for TLOU2 at the One Night Live event a year after the first games release in 2014.

The "secret" epilogue to TLOU that they renacted is very very similar to the opening of TLOU2. It even used Future Days as the framing device.

Now Neil could be completely full of it and it trying to retcon the One Night Live epilogue but there's enough people in the know who've backed up that version of events that it sounds legit.

SMC92Ian

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I honestly question if Neil did. I mean he is hardly going to say in an interview to promote the game that he didn't want to make the sequel but was mandated to by the company that employs him. Maybe someday we will find out the truth behind it..

That's wrong, according to Neil years ago, he sat Troy down and town him the story of 2 and then told Ashley they were doing it in 2014. So... ND have enough to be able to tell Sony no. If people think 2 was only made for money or "had" to be made cause Sony then you don't have a clue. This isn't a sequel for the sake of it.

Retr0gamer

Well if that's true then it's just a badly written mess. It feels like a sequel just for the sake of it than an actual sequel.

SMC92Ian

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well if that's true then it's just a badly written mess. It feels like a sequel just for the sake of it than an actual sequel.

Completely disagree, I don't like parts of it but it does not feel like a sequel for the sake of it.

Retr0gamer

Well I just liked the finality of the original. Didn't need a follow up and the fact that I found the sequel added nothing to the world and characters and in the end said nothing interesting reinforces it for me. It just feels totally unnecessary like uncharted 4.

Again it's not bad. Just a massive step back from the original in terms of the writing.

Dr. Bre

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well I just liked the finality of the original. Didn't need a follow up and the fact that I found the sequel added nothing to the world and characters and in the end said nothing interesting reinforces it for me. It just feels totally unnecessary like uncharted 4.

Again it's not bad. Just a massive step back from the original in terms of the writing.

It’s a good game not a great game ...

Retr0gamer

Dr. Bre wrote: »

It’s a good game not a great game ...

It's grand. It excels in how uneventful it is.

SMC92Ian

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's grand. It excels in how uneventful it is.

Uneventful? HAAAAAAA!

Retr0gamer

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Uneventful? HAAAAAAA!

In your own words, in your opinion.

I just found the game went no where. By the end I didn't care about any of the characters and got nothing from the story other than violence is bad. And it took 20+ hours to say nothing really.

Leroy42

Retr0gamer wrote: »

In your own words, in your opinion.

I just found the game went no where. By the end I didn't care about any of the characters and got nothing from the story other than violence is bad. And it took 20+ hours to say nothing really.

Then, IMO, you failed to see the game for what it was.

Violence is bad is not the main theme of TLOU2, although the lines between violence to service and violence for vengeance is certainly pretty central.

If you let it, it takes you on a journey where you feel you know the characters, you like Ellie, you feel her pain and her predicament, too having to face the reality that this sweet innocent kid is now as bad, maybe even worse, than the characters that you felt were her enenmies.

SHe turns her back, not only on her own values, but her friends and 'family' in pursuit of her own agenda.

It starts us off hating Abby for what she did, sure that whilst Joel was a class A *****, he had found some redemption. We are forced to confront the reality that Joel is not alone in that, and that by the end Abby has probably gone through a bigger transformation and ended up far better than Joel ever did.

Part of the complaints about the ending, that Ellie allows Abby to live, is that the majority of players, myself included, wanted that vengeance. I wanted Ellie to 'win'.

But the game forces you to see that killing Abby would not be a win, it would solve nothing and that Ellie had demons that would not be exercised by more killing.

The fact that there are less infected in the game is , IMO, to highlight that civilisation have moved on from the panic of the initial outbreak and has come to terms with how to live, and even prosper, in the new reality.

Their is no cure, but their is hope. After the crackdowns and military controls a new way has begun to emerge. Self sustainability, working together, communities with some people working to provide food, others shelter, others protection. But all of this is put in jeopardy but the desire for power, to control, a lack of ability to see others POV.

That far from the infection being the biggest threat, it is mankinds eveil to each other that is the real threat.

And that leaves a pretty desolate feeling at the end. Even if the infection is beaten, the world is never going to be safe, or happy. There will be the next threat, the next group wanting to take advantage and control of others.

Retr0gamer

No, I got all that. I just either didn't think it was well handled or else I just didn't care about it.

Ellie is just a monster in this game but her transformation wasn't subtle at all and by the end of the game I had no connection or empathy for her because her actions didn't make sense. It just got too unbelievable for me that the suspension of disbelief was well and truly shattered. There was absolutely no nuance to her character. It's basically character you were fond of in the original is now an asshole and never gets any more complex than that.

As for Abby, there was a total lack of subtlety there. Her redemption arc was a save the dog moment. Going back to help Yara and Lev. Compare that to the redemption arc that was the entirety of Joel's character arc in the first game and it's just the standard save the dog trope used by lesser hollywood films in comparison. That's all there is to her character. It's not complex. And she was always going to turn against the people in seattle because they were as bad as the Scars. It's a crap version of the themes in the Bridge over the River Kwai.

As for society returning to normal, ok I'll give you that one. Spoiled by the violence of man. But again this wasn't exactly handled in an intelligent way. Man is the real monster, just like every season of the Walking dead.

It's just nothing we haven't seen before and not handled in any kind of subtle or nuanced way. Perhaps it's Neil over reaching. Trying to tell too many stories and never having the time to really explore any of them whereas the original was focused on the microcosm of the relationship between Joel and Ellie and came across as believable, human and full of interesting character developments and growth.

Last of Us 2 never acheives more than being a videogame version of a decent hollywood action film. It wants to be more clever than it actually is. The original on the other hand was something special.

The Raging Bile Duct

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Last of Us 2 never acheives more than being a videogame version of a decent hollywood action film. It wants to be more clever than it actually is. The original on the other hand was something special.

It's weird because I remember you complaining quite a lot about the original when it first came out.

Retr0gamer

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

It's weird because I remember you complaining quite a lot about the original when it first came out.

Yeah but I also pointed out a lot of what I found wrong with it was nitpicking. It was just that it was maddeningly almost a masterpiece. And opinions do change over time.

I really love the relationship between Joel and Ellie and it was handled very well.

The main criticisms I had were with the story side of the game being dissonant with the videogame side of it. The insane body count is ridiculous in the context of the story and there's times when the game becomes way too gamified and shatters the suspension of disbelief. The sniper section being one. And the game relies too heavily on cutscenes to tell the story which can affect the pacing somewhat. And then there's the surgery scene which while well intentioned was a gross failure of game design.

Naughty Dog have always struggled with the story they want to tell in the context of a videogame and they never quite work together that well. They aren't brave enough to sometimes just slow things down. Another example is the desert scene in Uncharted 3 which could have been so much more if they just had been brave enough to explore that more rather than give in to the need for the game to be a videogame. The exception was the Last of Us DLC Left Behind which was brave enough to slow things down a lot and I'd regard it as the best thing Naughty Dog has done. But then the lower budget and smaller scope probably allowed them to experiment a bit without having to worry about financial issues as much.

SMC92Ian

Leroy42 wrote: »

Then, IMO, you failed to see the game for what it was.

Violence is bad is not the main theme of TLOU2, although the lines between violence to service and violence for vengeance is certainly pretty central.

If you let it, it takes you on a journey where you feel you know the characters, you like Ellie, you feel her pain and her predicament, too having to face the reality that this sweet innocent kid is now as bad, maybe even worse, than the characters that you felt were her enenmies.

SHe turns her back, not only on her own values, but her friends and 'family' in pursuit of her own agenda.

It starts us off hating Abby for what she did, sure that whilst Joel was a class A *****, he had found some redemption. We are forced to confront the reality that Joel is not alone in that, and that by the end Abby has probably gone through a bigger transformation and ended up far better than Joel ever did.

Part of the complaints about the ending, that Ellie allows Abby to live, is that the majority of players, myself included, wanted that vengeance. I wanted Ellie to 'win'.

But the game forces you to see that killing Abby would not be a win, it would solve nothing and that Ellie had demons that would not be exercised by more killing.

The fact that there are less infected in the game is , IMO, to highlight that civilisation have moved on from the panic of the initial outbreak and has come to terms with how to live, and even prosper, in the new reality.

Their is no cure, but their is hope. After the crackdowns and military controls a new way has begun to emerge. Self sustainability, working together, communities with some people working to provide food, others shelter, others protection. But all of this is put in jeopardy but the desire for power, to control, a lack of ability to see others POV.

That far from the infection being the biggest threat, it is mankinds eveil to each other that is the real threat.

And that leaves a pretty desolate feeling at the end. Even if the infection is beaten, the world is never going to be safe, or happy. There will be the next threat, the next group wanting to take advantage and control of others.

That seems to be the main issue, people are assuming the wrong things about the game or have already made up their minds going into it. I hadn't even seen a trailer or screenshot before playing the game, I hated it when I first played it but I'm settling into it more and more. People saying it was boring or nothing happened are talking rubbish. This is 20 years on and I'm sure people would find a way to live with the infected, look at us now and how quickly we've adapted to this pandemic.

gimli2112

I'd agree it shouldn't have been made but it was always going to be.

I never really pull themes out of games, books or movies. Either I like something or I don't without putting too much thought into it. I stopped playing this on the second run near the end when I realised I hadn't all the collectibles for the platinum and couldn't face anymore of it.

SMC92Ian

gimli2112 wrote: »

I'd agree it shouldn't have been made but it was always going to be.

I never really pull themes out of games, books or movies. Either I like something or I don't without putting too much thought into it. I stopped playing this on the second run near the end when I realised I hadn't all the collectibles for the platinum and couldn't face anymore of it.

I was doing a collectables run but stopped at the start of Abby, I haven't gone back since, dunno why.