The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

Zero-Cool

A thread to openly discuss the full story, thoughts, issues, leaks, etc.

Mods, feel free to close it if unnecessary or apply thread rules.

Grumpypants

It's a spoiler thread but let's take it handy and discuss roughly in line with how far people could get without pulling an all nighter.

Maybe let's say the lodge is fairly obtainable in a day, but anything in the last 2/3s should get a spoiler tag for a week or so.

I'm interested in how people felt about "the lodge".

I thought it was pretty badly handled. It is always a sign of weak writing when the only way they can get a big reaction is to knock off a main character. That they couldn't write a story to make Ellie upset enough.

They could have built the Ellie Abby switching for hours, bringing them closer together and closing the gap between who is the good and bad character.

They had a chance to make this a centerpiece and have you invested in the revenge. But conflicted over who is right.

It happens so early it didn't have the impact they probably hoped.

Thecageyone

I don't have a Ps4 so can't play it, but been watching streams of it on Twitch, looks good. If they can stream it live, which obviously gives spoilers to anyone watching, then I'm sure this is fine too

johnny_ultimate

Mod note: For the time being, I think the first few hours of the game are fair game for this thread. If you haven't played up until 'the lodge' part you probably shouldn't be here! Later game stuff please do spoiler tag for the next little while, we'll go spoiler tag free in a week or so once more people have had a chance to finish the game.

johnny_ultimate

Grumpypants wrote: »

It happens so early it didn't have the impact they probably hoped.

(spoilers for the first few hours, it goes without saying)

I've got to say I like that it happens early, to the point I'd barely call it a spoiler (it's the inciting incident for the whole game!) and would've been interesting to see what happened if they allowed that info out a bit earlier.

I think having it happen when it does in a sense releases that fairly clichéd narrative tension of zombie fiction, where you're just waiting for a main character to die (see The Walking Dead). Obviously there are a couple of other potential fatalities here, but getting rid of Joel early focuses the story on Ellie (and Abbie) nearly immediately and complicates the 'big secret' that we know is out there about their relationship. Killing a lead character is always a brute force storytelling move, but the placement here in what's effectively a prologue is interesting.

Whether the game follows through on the potential, I can only wait and see - I've read some very smart critics express some deep reservations about the game (that it's repetitive, unsubtle - not that I expect subtlety from this series - and doesn't really do many interesting things with its themes) so I'm reticent to analyse too much more until I know where they go with it. But yeah I think offing Joel early is a clever enough setup for the game, as it'd have been far more obvious to have his death as the big, climactic beat of the story.

The Raging Bile Duct

Just past the lodge and I'd have no issue with the offing of Joel so early. I had a feeling it was going to happen in the first few hours as there was little of him in the promo material. I just hope it has a proper conclusion.

Is Abby meant to be the trans character? Because she doesn't look trans to me...

The Raging Bile Duct

Presumably Joel's death is in relation to his kill em all rescue of Ellie at the end of the first game.

Joshua J

So I've just finished it. Good luck to the speed-running community with this one

The ending somewhat saved this game for me. It stirred some sort of emotion that had been lacking throughout. When Joel died I was there with Ellie, ready to go hunt down his killers. But as the game went on and on and the hours piled up, I just got bored. The best part of the first game was the story. They caught lightning in a bottle. The relationship between Ellie and Joel and their journey together is gaming folk lore now. The weakest part on TLOU was the gameplay and the middle 10-15 hours of part 2 is just gameplay.

Some reviewers had said that the game just wasn't fun. I thought they were being overly judgemental and this game wasn't meant to be fun it was a revenge mission so was meant to be bleak and harrowing. But they were right. It is just so so tedious. Spending an hour stealthing and clearing a section of Scars, to then straight into a section with Wolves, clear that. We're done right?. On with the story?. Nope, gotta clear a section with infested now. But twice. Once going up a building and then coming down. Over and over and over again like this. Is it by design?. Did the devs want you to feel like Ellie, like you just didnt care anymore, you just wanted to get done?. I dunno. If they did they succeeded with me anyway.

Another thing that didn't sit right with me was Tommy coming to Dina and Ellies home to tell Ellie he had a lead on Abby. This was not Tommy. He literally went after the Wolves to stop Ellie from going. He wasn't going to until she said she would and made Marie give him a head start so he could get there and keep Ellie out of danger. But it's to show how revenge can twist and distort someone, right?. I mean its hinted his life had fallen apart and that he and Marie are separated. I dunno, felt forced and completely out of character.

Did I hear correctly, that when Ellie freed the slaves at the Rattlers one of them said Abby had been bit?. Was Abby immune like Ellie?. I probably misheard. Anyway, if they had taken the first four hours and the last two hours, scrapped the middle 15 hours and tightened up the story it would have been so much better imo. They wanted it to be an Epic tale I'm sure, but it turned into a slog.

Hard to know where Ellie headed off at the end. I'd like to think she headed back to Jacksonville. Maybe just hit the road. I guess Joel ruined any chance of a happy ending by saving Ellie in the first game.

Zero replayability for me due to a bloated mid game. 7/10.

Zero-Cool

Had a quick peak in here and good to see there's only discussions about the lodge as i just finished it last night. I was already spoiled that Joel dies but i didn't expect it to be that early. As much as i love Joel, i think it was hugely impactful to kick off the revenge plot. I'm just interested to see why Tommy and Ellie were left alive as the wlf know they will be coming after them.

So obviously the trailers were cleverly edited which i was always a possibility anyway but i wonder if Joel was added as a red herring or if ghost Joel follows you around, interested to find out anyway.

What i thought was superb was the walk around Joel's house. That to me was the true ending to his story. He saved Ellie, settled down in a really nice house, whittled some wood and played some music. I got the sense he was truly happy, if not a bit guilty for his actions.

I thought Dina was gonna die in the lodge but glad she didn't, great chemistry between her and Ellie.

Grumpypants

I felt Joel had turned into a bit of a doddering old man in the 4 years since the first game. If old age creeps up that fast I'm getting worried

General time line spoilers

The time line jumps around a bit. It goes from present day, back to the first game and the inbetween years. It does a great job of character building and you become far more invested in many more of the people in that Lodge scene.

They are going for the same thing you see in movies and TV that they show you the big event at the start then shift back and build up to it.

But now having the investment, that scene means way more. If it had been mid game it would have been a really conflicted moment. I think it was a missed opportunity. The scene as it is, is simply bad people are bad and we must kill them

20+ hour mark spoiler here

I was actively trying to kill Tommy by this point because my affiliation had moved to Abby and Tommy was hunting me and my friends.

It does a great job of showing how people get locked into their little "tribes" And any outsider is viewed as a threat.

Although it is bleak. I don't get the idea that it is constantly bleak it's just war. There are some really selfless acts of kindness in there too.

It's a bit like Band of Brothers. It's war and horrific, but there's small windows where they see the enemy as human.

The bits where one guy saves the German soldier when the others wanted to kill him. That act of kindness gets people killed but later. Or when they have the German soldiers held prisoner and one is a German from the US. They are chatting and sharing a smoke. He walks away and someone else just guns them all down.

Joshua J

Grumpypants wrote: »

I felt Joel had turned into a bit of a doddering old man in the 4 years since the first game. If old age creeps up that fast I'm getting worried

Ending spoiler so dont read if not finished.

I had completely avoided spoilers leading up to release and only after finishing it did I go back and see what all the fuss was about. Tbh the criticisms are not without merit, particularly when it comes to Joel. In part one he was an absolute bad-ass. Strong, confident, authoritative and head strong. He took no sh1t from anyone. But every scene in part 2 he's some weak weepy eyed teenager who gets scolded by Ellie and he's walking around with his tail between his legs. And it's not because he felt guilty, one of the last scenes he tells Ellie that if he had the chance again in the hospital he'd do the same thing. It's just poor writing imo, may as well be a different character for all he had in common with Joel from part 1.

BruteStock

Most are in agreement with Angry Joe. It was out of character for Joel to walk haphazardly into a situation that had the potential for an ambush.
It was worse to have him reveal his identity to a bunch of strangers who had him completely surrounded.

johnny_ultimate

Well he didn’t ‘walk haphazardly’ into any situation - he rode into shelter during a blizzard to avoid an army of infected. Anyone would be forgiven for taking a breather and letting your guard down after reaching safety.

Similarly, it’s hard to say he acted out of character after four entire years had passed since we last saw the character - four years of peace and stability. Perhaps there’s stuff later in this game flashback-wise that contradicts that, but four years is a very long time for any character, especially after moving from constant, cynical survival mode to a years-long period of relative calm and civility. Someone becoming a bit warmer and more accepting of other people in such a situation seems like a perfectly credible progression to me.

The Raging Bile Duct

BruteStock wrote: »

Most are in agreement with Angry Joe. It was out of character for Joel to walk haphazardly into a situation that had the potential for an ambush.
It was worse to have him reveal his identity to a bunch of strangers who had him completely surrounded.

They were being chased by a horde of infected so it hardly gave him time to assess the potential dangers of the group and he then introduced himself and Tommy when they were safe. I can't see the problem with how it was handled.

BruteStock

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

They were being chased by a horde of infected so it hardly gave him time to assess the potential dangers of the group and he then introduced himself and Tommy when they were safe. I can't see the problem with how it was handled.

I can see a few. For starters , Abby was a trespasser in the midst of an invasion. Joel who was patrolling the area to protect the settlement , would and should have associated a trespasser to the cause of the clicker invasion.
He would have either let her there to croak , or demanded to know who she was and she was in the area. Thats kinda the point of being on watch. There were many opportunity's to ask the obvious questions.

Abby then informing Joel that she had a gang hiding out in the nearby mansion would have raised even more suspicion.

Upon arriving at the mansion , they are saved by the gang who mow down the perusing clickers with a heavy arsenal of pistols , shotguns an Molotov's.

Now Joel is out-numbed by strangers who are heavily armed and who are hiding in a house they probably shouldn't have been in given its close proximity to Joel's settlement and surrounding lookout posts.

He still has his suspicions that these people might have been responsible for the invasion , so walking into this situation like everything was fine and dandy was totally out of character for him.

mewso

I'm a non-console guy so for both TLOU 1 and now 2 I will only see it on youtube which is fine with me since I think Naughty Dog would rather be making movies and should. Their games would have little appeal to me bar good story. I've seen this controversial opening and to be honest I am totally mystified at the outrage not to mention at a loss as to how it equates to wokeness (hate the term) etc.

My prediction based on the beginning, as I have not seen anything after that, would be

that Ellie finds these guys and they turn out to be Fireflies who killed Joel for the hospital wipe out in the last game and the only thing that makes sense story wise (although probably not game play wise considering how many people you are likely to have killed by the end) is that Ellie lets yer one live to end the cycle of violence in a seen it all before move.

To me it's fairly basic writing and the only bad thing about it is that we've seen this kind of thing many times before.

I'm really only posting because I was hoping someone might let me know why this is being accused of being 'woke'.

SomeSayKos

My thoughts on the lodge:

For me, in the world of 'the last of us' it makes sense that Joels past would inevitably come back to get him in the end. The guy had done a lot of bad things and killed a lot of people since the outbreak so it felt like it was only a matter of time before someone sought revenge against him.

One of the reasons I loved the first game was because he was a true antihero. I wanted Joel to succeed during the game only because I wanted Ellie to get where she was going safely. Yes, it was bittersweet that two people who had suffered a great deal of loss were able to bond and find a father figure/daughter figure in such a vicious world. It was the strength in the writing that I understood why Joel killed the fireflies and rescued Ellie even though objectively it was arguably the worst thing that had happened in the world since the outbreak. It was pure selfishness. He didn't do it for Ellie, he did it for himself. I played through the first game recently and the end stuck with me because of the amount of people you kill in the hospital before reaching Ellie. To me it would make sense that any firefly not murdered would go to any lengths to find and kill Joel. And a part of me thinks 'fair play to them'.

Also, Ellie wanted her immunity to mean something. She lost her best friend/love interest when she was bitten and her parents were long gone too and Joel robbed her of that opportunity.

So basically the TLDR is that I think Joel got what he deserved....

SomeSayKos

Also, I assumed Joel was already dead from the very first reveal of TLOU2. The way ellie was in the house on her own and the way Joel came in from a glowing all white door. My first thought 'oh, I guess Joel is dead in the new one'

J Mysterio

Finished the game. Left feeling kind of sad about it, and strangely unfulfilled.

In the end, don't like Ellie so much anymore, loved her in part 1. I think Abby came across better, other than the brutal murder of Joel... But Abby learned from her mistakes, it's not clear Ellie did. I might feel differently if Ellie didnt go after Abby again at the end, but she did, that definitely felt OTT, and was disappointing.

Dissapointed with Tommy too, to approach Ellie about this near game end. Also isn't clear why he couldn't continue to hunt Abby if it was still so important to him. Sure, he had a lame leg, but he could still do the business - he could still ride a horse, and it's clear he was an excellent sniper.

Meh. At the end of the Last of Us, I felt good, at the end of this, just a bit morose.

I also just wanted to 'get through it' about 2/3 through. Particularly after Abby met Yarra and Lev. Just wanted to finish it. I like playing as Abby in Santa Barbara though.

Still, would be interested to know/ see if there is more to come.

J Mysterio

Joshua J wrote: »

So I've just finished it. Good luck to the speed-running community with this one

The ending somewhat saved this game for me. It stirred some sort of emotion that had been lacking throughout. When Joel died I was there with Ellie, ready to go hunt down his killers. But as the game went on and on and the hours piled up, I just got bored. The best part of the first game was the story. They caught lightning in a bottle. The relationship between Ellie and Joel and their journey together is gaming folk lore now. The weakest part on TLOU was the gameplay and the middle 10-15 hours of part 2 is just gameplay.

Some reviewers had said that the game just wasn't fun. I thought they were being overly judgemental and this game wasn't meant to be fun it was a revenge mission so was meant to be bleak and harrowing. But they were right. It is just so so tedious. Spending an hour stealthing and clearing a section of Scars, to then straight into a section with Wolves, clear that. We're done right?. On with the story?. Nope, gotta clear a section with infested now. But twice. Once going up a building and then coming down. Over and over and over again like this. Is it by design?. Did the devs want you to feel like Ellie, like you just didnt care anymore, you just wanted to get done?. I dunno. If they did they succeeded with me anyway.

Another thing that didn't sit right with me was Tommy coming to Dina and Ellies home to tell Ellie he had a lead on Abby. This was not Tommy. He literally went after the Wolves to stop Ellie from going. He wasn't going to until she said she would and made Marie give him a head start so he could get there and keep Ellie out of danger. But it's to show how revenge can twist and distort someone, right?. I mean its hinted his life had fallen apart and that he and Marie are separated. I dunno, felt forced and completely out of character.

Did I hear correctly, that when Ellie freed the slaves at the Rattlers one of them said Abby had been bit?. Was Abby immune like Ellie?. I probably misheard. Anyway, if they had taken the first four hours and the last two hours, scrapped the middle 15 hours and tightened up the story it would have been so much better imo. They wanted it to be an Epic tale I'm sure, but it turned into a slog.

Hard to know where Ellie headed off at the end. I'd like to think she headed back to Jacksonville. Maybe just hit the road. I guess Joel ruined any chance of a happy ending by saving Ellie in the first game.

Zero replayability for me due to a bloated mid game. 7/10.

Posted my thoughts before reading yours but pretty much agree with all of that.

Only thing is that

it was Ellie who was bit near the end, not Abby. The guy meant she would have enough time to find Abby before she turned.

J Mysterio

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well he didn’t ‘walk haphazardly’ into any situation - he rode into shelter during a blizzard to avoid an army of infected. Anyone would be forgiven for taking a breather and letting your guard down after reaching safety.

Similarly, it’s hard to say he acted out of character after four entire years had passed since we last saw the character - four years of peace and stability. Perhaps there’s stuff later in this game flashback-wise that contradicts that, but four years is a very long time for any character, especially after moving from constant, cynical survival mode to a years-long period of relative calm and civility. Someone becoming a bit warmer and more accepting of other people in such a situation seems like a perfectly credible progression to me.

Agree. Also, he had just saved Abby's life, so he would surely not have expected a double cross.

SMC92Ian

Load of nonsense lads, it had some great parts but forcing me to play as the huar that killed Joel and then making us control her trying to kill Ellie... I mean wtf Naughty Dog were you all off your head making this. I enjoyed bits of it but after halfway through Abby's parts I wanted to just stop, it became a chore, I'm not really a fan of the combat, the story is what I was hear for and by lord was it something. I'd give it about a 5/10.

Grumpypants

Spoiler tags FFS

Joshua J

J Mysterio wrote: »

Posted my thoughts before reading yours but pretty much agree with all of that.

Only thing is that

it was Ellie who was bit near the end, not Abby. The guy meant she would have enough time to find Abby before she turned.

Ah yes of course that makes sense she got bit when she fought the 2 Rattlers. Actually one of few really good scenes that when she pulled your man into the hanging clicker. Really wanted to love this game and waited so long. Oh well.

Joshua J

J Mysterio wrote: »

Finished the game. Left feeling kind of sad about it, and strangely unfulfilled.

In the end, don't like Ellie so much anymore, loved her in part 1. I think Abby came across better, other than the brutal murder of Joel... But Abby learned from her mistakes, it's not clear Ellie did. I might feel differently if Ellie didnt go after Abby again at the end, but she did, that definitely felt OTT, and was disappointing.

Dissapointed with Tommy too, to approach Ellie about this near game end. Also isn't clear why he couldn't continue to hunt Abby if it was still so important to him. Sure, he had a lame leg, but he could still do the business - he could still ride a horse, and it's clear he was an excellent sniper.

Meh. At the end of the Last of Us, I felt good, at the end of this, just a bit morose.

I also just wanted to 'get through it' about 2/3 through. Particularly after Abby met Yarra and Lev. Just wanted to finish it. I like playing as Abby in Santa Barbara though.

Still, would be interested to know/ see if there is more to come.

There were parts that I just sprinted through the enemies just to clear it to get to the end. Shouldn't be like that.

SMC92Ian

Grumpypants wrote: »

Spoiler tags FFS

What? This is the spoiler thread?

johnny_ultimate

SMC92Ian wrote: »

What? This is the spoiler thread?

There’s a very clear note near the top of the thread about what should and shouldn’t be behind spoiler tags for the time being.

SomeSayKos

J Mysterio wrote: »

Meh. At the end of the Last of Us, I felt good, at the end of this, just a bit morose.

Just out of interest, why did you feel good at the end of the first game? I thought the ending of the first game was really dark and sad because Joel had done dreadful things and then lied to Ellies' face. I was really bummed out at the end of it, just like I was at the end of this one

J Mysterio

SomeSayKos wrote: »

Just out of interest, why did you feel good at the end of the first game? I thought the ending of the first game was really dark and sad because Joel had done dreadful things and then lied to Ellies' face. I was really bummed out at the end of it, just like I was at the end of this one

I guess it was that - despite everything - there seemed to be hope for them 'going forward'. Ellie and Joel would live and they would settle somewhere. There was that moment with the sun coming out, and the giraffe walking around. It was a 'life goes on' moment - hopeful. There was an acceptance that the world is as it is, but there are good moments and it can get better, particularly if people who care about each other work together.

Joel lied to Ellie, yes, but that was a 'white lie' for me. Something that a parent would do for the benefit of a child. I didn't think Joel was wrong. He was driving her away from the disaster they escaped from, and to an undetermined, but presumably better future.

That's my memory looking back anyway. It was a number of years ago. There doesn't seem to be that same hope after TLOU2, not for Ellie anyway. She is a haunted, tormented soul, moreso than before, and has arguably ruined her relationship with her remaining friends which aren't dead. Something is broken in her, literally and metaphorically. I think her playing the guitar at the end illustrated that - she couldn't play the tune properly anymore (with the loss of her fingers).

There probably is some hope for Abby and Lev, as they will inevitably join with the remaining Firerfiles (assuming Abby doesn't succumb to her seemingly serious injuries). But TLOU2 just ended on a much more bleak note for me.

In TLOU, Joel was fighting for something positive - for Ellie, for a cure. In TLOU2, Ellie was just consumed with hate and anger, and took it out on everyone. She became selfish and unlikable, and her actions led to the deaths of many of her friends and destroyed her relationships. As Abby said, she had 'allowed her to live, and she ruined it'. And this happened again. Ellie going to Santa Barbara was too much

Penn

BruteStock wrote: »

I can see a few. For starters , Abby was a trespasser in the midst of an invasion. Joel who was patrolling the area to protect the settlement , would and should have associated a trespasser to the cause of the clicker invasion.
He would have either let her there to croak , or demanded to know who she was and she was in the area. Thats kinda the point of being on watch. There were many opportunity's to ask the obvious questions.

Abby then informing Joel that she had a gang hiding out in the nearby mansion would have raised even more suspicion.

Upon arriving at the mansion , they are saved by the gang who mow down the perusing clickers with a heavy arsenal of pistols , shotguns an Molotov's.

Now Joel is out-numbed by strangers who are heavily armed and who are hiding in a house they probably shouldn't have been in given its close proximity to Joel's settlement and surrounding lookout posts.

He still has his suspicions that these people might have been responsible for the invasion , so walking into this situation like everything was fine and dandy was totally out of character for him.

I disagree. It's been almost 25 years since the outbreak began. The idea that there are groups, fairly well-armed and experienced at taking out clickers etc, travelling place to place either looking for supplies or settlements and shacking up in abandoned buildings (and fortifying them as much as possible while they are there)... That's all completely reasonable imo. Obviously if they showed up at the gates of Jackson it wouldn't be a case of "Come on in, folks, make yourself at home". We saw that in TLOU1 when Joel and Ellie first arrived there.

But a new pretty small group appearing on the outskirts of their town that they run into as an emergency situation, I don't think it's an issue that Joel & Tommy said their names. After all, what would be the chances that they'd have any idea who Joel was or what he'd done? The Fireflies were mostly dead or disbanded. There'd be no reason to give a fake name because he's just "Joel".

Given the size of the settlement in Jackson, it's probable that over the years they've taken in more people or small groups.

You can pick apart small things like that all day and for every decision he made in the first game. He told his name to Henry & Sam during the first game too but no one complained about that. Things like that are only considered bad when they make things go wrong, but that's only with the benefit of hindsight. There was no legitimate reason why Joel wouldn't have told them his name.

BruteStock

Penn wrote: »

He told his name to Henry & Sam during the first game too but no one complained about that.

Joel was about to beat Henry to death when he first encountered him. It was actually Ellie who blurted out Joel's name when she saw Sam appear with a gun.

When Henry got up he asked - "I don't think I caught your name , was it Joel?"

Ellie answers first by introducing herself and that clearly unsettles Joel. Joel never says his name and he swiftly changes the topic by asking Henry if he's by himself or with others.
Joel got straight to the point by asking the the relevant questions and ignoring Henry's question about his name.

Joel is again put on edge moments later when Ellie requests they should all work together.

Key takeaways from this scene
- Joel isn't too keen on revealing his name
- He has concerns about groups of strangers
- He's slow to trust new acquaintances

If the Joel in the sequel was true to the real Joel , he would have questioned Abby before they got to the mansion and upon hearing a gang was there waiting its unlikely he would have even went there. Its more true to his character that he would have brought Abby with him to another location. Its logical he would have had another recourse , rather than the one that led him to meet his maker.