Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!
Options
Comments
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Join Date:Posts: 50046
The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »Article discussing why we should return to black and white morality games using the Last of Us 2 and Bioshock Infinite as a springboard for its argument and throwing in some black lives matter for relevance. It's a dumpster fire of an article imo.
https://www.polygon.com/2020/8/3/21352437/games-morality-last-of-of-us-bioshock-good-bad
I thought it would be a dumpster fire until I read it. Rather than say return to black and white morality I get the author is saying that everything doesn't have to be morally grey. There's nothing wrong with some black and white morality when it fits. Thought it was a well researched and written article and he is dead on about the likes of Last of US 2 and especially Bioshock Infinite. I mean there's no morally grey about racism, it's just out and out bad and Bioshock Infinite comes across as really head scratchingly stupid because of it. Last of Us 2 in it's weaker moments is trying way too hard to be morally grey and those moments come across as forced and artificial.
0 -
-
Join Date:Posts: 50046
The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »But you can have a character with noble aspirations, or considered a force a force for good, be corrupted by power - Aung San Suu Kyi springs to mind in the real world.
There's grey morality everywhere in life. Racism is completely wrong but what about what about the person raised in a racist family who has been completely indoctrinated and never had a chance to learn a different point of view?
Yes you can have that, but that has nothing to do with Bioshock Inifinte, it isn't even that clever about it. It comes across as ridiculous and even more damning is the DLC's ridiculous attempt to retcon it which falls flat on its face. It's like Ken Levine knew he messed up but instead of owning it and admitting to it and addressing it he tries to retcon it in a 'I had this planned all along!' kind of way which just ended up eyerollingly bad.
Again, read the article. The headline is admittedly misleading. It's no saying get rid of morally grey story plot points, it's more saying everything doesn't have to be morally grey. Black and white morality can be good and just as intellectually stimulating as well. A lot of developers are falling over themselves to make everything morally grey when they would be better off in some cases to just have a bit of black and white in their games.
0 -
-
Join Date:Posts: 50046
The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »The authoritarian and the racist among us are going to always argue that their viewpoints are just.
But that's the whole point. Arguing that these people have their own side is just wrong and gives them a platform and legitimacy when there should be no argument. They're just plain wrong and evil.
It's the same argument they use that has them arguing that their racist comments should be heard because of freedom of speech when freedom of speech means we can also choose not to give these voices a platform because they are wrong and will do harm if they get out there.The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »As for the all lives matter part at the end... my eyes couldn't roll back in my head enough.
Thought the author was on the ball with that comment. It's pretty much the racists trying to de-legitimise and weaken the BLM movement by throwing out morally grey whataboutery shade that actually has nothing to do with the BLM movement.
0 -
-
-
Join Date:Posts: 50046
The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »So, when it comes to a work of fiction, we should only be allowed to see the world from one perspective in case it turns us into misogynistic and racist authoritarians?
I must have missed the point in TLOU2 threw whataboutery shade on the BLM movement. Is that Ellie, Seattle Day 1?
I like to have a degree of complexity and moral conflict in the works of fiction I consume. Doesn't mean I think that the BLM isn't legitimate cause and appropriate response to the racism we see in the world today.
And all of this is total whataboutery.
I never said we should be only allowed see the world from one perspective. The article also never says that.
I also never said that TLOU2 threw whataboutery shade at the BLM movement. Neither does the article.
As for the last paragraph, not sure who that's aimed at as I never said it implies that and neither does the article.
0 -
Join Date:Posts: 50046
Thought it was quite a weak article as they ignored why people enjoy grey morality. The fact is stories these days are still dominated by black and white characters, it's just now they explain the badies motivation more. I feel we need more grey in our stories and less black and white, its one of the reasons why the sub quests in the Witcher 3 were so memorable.
For me having characters that are grey makes them far more complex and realistic, I love it when you have to ask yourself if a characters actions are justified. Stories need more characters like Walter white and Jamie Lannister.
That's not what I'm talking about though or the article. It never says that except maybe in the title which in fairness is a bit clickbaity in how misleading it is.
You use the Witcher 3 as an example and I totally get that. The Witcher 3 does morally grey brilliantly. Same with Walter white and Jamie Lannister.
But in breaking bad and game of thrones there's also characters that are plain out and out evil. You don't need to know their back story and it doesn't matter as they are irredeemable, knowing what made them evil adds nothing.
What the article is addressing is developers bending over backwards to make everything morally grey because it's trending right now. And when they do it badly it comes off disingenuous or at worst in the case of Infinite, a bit in bad taste. It's just that there's room for black and white as well everything doesn't have to be over explained or given a reason. Some people are just evil and/arseholes.
Basically it's don't be afraid to have some black and white morals. Sometimes it fits better than morally grey and can lead to better writing than shoehorning in grey morals.
0 -
Join Date:Posts: 50046
Late to the party. Started this up again and on to the abby section now. Game is really stretching itself thin and would be hoping it finishes soon but I've got a long way to go. I think short bursts is the best way to enjoy the game.
At this stage it's gotten completely ridiculous how many people the Jackson crew of 4 have managed to kill. Some dodgy writing as well in the last section with Jesse putting up so many death flags after finding out Dina was pregnant. The only surprise was they didn't shoot the big target on his forehead sooner. Ellie finding running off the the hospital to find the plot convenient audio log was a bit silly.
Interesting to see how the abby sections make me feel about the game.
0 -
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
Join Date:Posts: 50046
Abby Day 1 was a chore. Now on to Abby's save the dog moment as she goes after Lev and Yara. This is not good writing. A feel nothing for the plight of the people in Seattle either as the fight with the Seraphites is a big nose dive into stupid.
0 -
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Join Date:Posts: 50046
So, I’m finally done and Last of Us 2 is… grand. It really should have been so much more than grand. All that money, the efforts of everyone involved, the hours or overtime the developers had to endure just to make a game that’s… grand.
I’ll start with the gameplay because it’s where I don’t have many issues with the game. Being a bit cynical about the triple A industry’s penchant for using the same gameplay templates I was surprised how much I enjoyed the core gameplay loop. The shooting is fine, nothing special. Combined with the stealth and the gadgets though and it elevates it. I enjoyed playing Ellie more, but I think I just loved the proximity mines way too much. The set pieces mix things up just enough to keep things interesting, it’s no Resident Evil 4 but the combat never bored me. After the very slow 2 hour opening that was awfully paced once the game opens up proper and lets you play it, I was having a lot of fun.
Then there’s the writing and this is where all the problems are. First the world and setting. The infected feel completely perfunctory. They are there because they were in the first game, but this game could have been set in a world without them and you wouldn’t know they were there. They are window dressing and just serve to mix up combat situations. They are used so little that I kind of wonder why they are such a threat as they seem on the verge of extinction.
And then there’s the main plot and characters. Ellie is just a complete psychopath. She feels like a caricature of a real person. She is such a blood crazed psycho that she destroys that suspension of disbelief. Abby comes across better, but her redemption arc feels so forced and basically amounts to a save the dog moment. Both leave so many bodies in their wake that it’s hard to emphasis with either of them. None of the character arcs were interesting and their struggles were either boring in the case of Abby or made no sense in the case of Ellie’s murderous rampage.
My biggest issue however is the theme of the game. The game spends 20+ hours telling its story and, in the end, basically says nothing. Violence is bad, cycle of violence whatever. We all know violence is bad and it takes everything away from both characters. Yawn. It’s not interesting. Compare that to the Last of Us which is an interesting character study. Ellie and Joel’s rocky relationship grows throughout the game and Joel is fascinating as a deeply flawed character given a chance at redemption. He is presented with a choice at the end of the game where both options are awful. We can’t say the choice he made was right or wrong but the reason he made it, his own selfish desires, was reprehensible and the game is left with Joel’s selfishness and lies going to eventually ruin the relationship that was built over the game. It’s a brilliant and subtle character study that is completely at odds with the sledgehammer approach of violence = bad of the sequel.
And to cap it all off this all happened because Abby’s dad was a drama queen about the bullet I put in his toe.
And the biggest tragedy of the Last of Us 2 is that it shouldn’t have been made. It adds nothing to the ending of the original game which ended brilliantly where it should have. It should have been called Part 3 because like the Godfather Part 3 it’s an unsatisfying cap stone to a saga that didn’t need one. During the PS3 era we had Naughty Dog give us two new IPs, Uncharted and the Last of Us. The PS4 era had Naughty Dog give us two sequels to these series, Uncharted 4 and the Last of Us Part 2 (disclaimer, I’ve not played Lost Legacy) that felt shoehorned into their respective series. Both series main plotlines had reach their logical conclusion and the sequels feel unsatisfying and out of place in a series that didn’t require them to be there. They added nothing.
Now imagine Naughty Dog were given the freedom to make something new, the game they wanted to make. I really do feel that they were mandated to make new entries in both series. There’s a huge amount of talent on show in the making of both games and it’s a shame it was kind of wasted on Uncharted 4 and the Last of Us Part 2.
0
I'll see it through but it's fair dragging! 
Advertisement