The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

johnny_ultimate

gimli2112 wrote: »

that's one way of looking at it, the other is the act itself and the lie were all about protecting Ellie, he'd prefer to see the world burn than allow any harm come to her
that's my take

Even the idea that Ellie needs constant protection is a dubious character trait of Joel's - a complex mix of good intention and selfishness. Ellie is, after all, the person who got them through the harsh, difficult winter when he needed to recuperate. Whether Ellie should give her life for the potential good of humankind... again, that should be Ellie's decision, not Joel's (Marlene is right when she says that exact thing). The Fireflies should have given her the choice... but so should Joel.

I come back to that very last shot of Ellie. The game sharply cuts to black at a moment of obvious doubt and uncertainty in her eyes about the man standing in front of her (it always stood out as being one of the first games with graphical fidelity good enough that they could cut away on such a clear, emotionally-loaded expression). TLOU ends on a note that is haunting and murky, and one that certainly didn't leave me with a positive impression of Joel or an optimistic note for either of their futures.

The Raging Bile Duct

The thing is you have to ask yourself, Johnny, what would Batman do?

It's how we should approach all problems in life.

The Raging Bile Duct

...

Batman wouldn't double post

Zero-Cool

I'm in the middle of watching a great interview with Druckmann and Gross. Neil said if you didn't love Ellie in the first story, the game failed but it wasn't difficult to love her and root for her in that. They wanted the same for Abby in 2 and admitted for a lot of people the story did fall because they didn't have any interest in her or hated her. For a lot of people (myself included) the story worked because we empathised with her. He knew it was risky but wanted to see if it could work. I think it was a ballsy move to knowingly risk that in a AAA game and I'm glad a lot of people are so divided, shows it wasn't just a black and white story going on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxpZDBpM-h8

gimli2112

I get what you're saying Johnny and agree she doesn't fully believe him but I was undeniably happy with the ending of TLOU. The good guys won. I watched the end credits roll with joy in my heart.
Personally I wouldn't let a 14 year old decide if she should kill herself or not no matter what the reason but that's just my take on the story. It would have been a huge sacrifice for both of them.

The fact the sequel is so divisive and generates such debate is a success for ND and Mr Druckmann.

Retr0gamer

I really don't see it as Joel trying to protect Ellie. Lying to her was a selfish act for his own sake. He was trying to keep her as the surrogate daughter even if he loves to her to keep her from hating him.

I think saying the ending is the good guys win cheapens an excellent and effective ambiguous ending that that game goes out on. It's a far more complex character study that just the good guys did the right thing.

J. Marston

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Even the idea that Ellie needs constant protection is a dubious character trait of Joel's - a complex mix of good intention and selfishness. Ellie is, after all, the person who got them through the harsh, difficult winter when he needed to recuperate. Whether Ellie should give her life for the potential good of humankind... again, that should be Ellie's decision, not Joel's (Marlene is right when she says that exact thing). The Fireflies should have given her the choice... but so should Joel.

That is something I can largely forgive in his character. His real daughter was shot and killed in his arms, that's gonna leave a mental scar that will affect his behaviour.

Zero-Cool

Yupp, he already lost one daughter and finally got his soul back through Ellie. He knew what would happen if he lost another. Selfish but understandable.

I love his portrayal in 2. Softer and calmer. It was like that lie instantly switched the dynamic of their relationship and he wasn't in charge anymore. Almost heartbreaking watching him want to play her the song at the start and she wasn't too interested. And then when he finished, it just screamed "I'm trying my best". Goddamn i miss Joel. **** Neil Druckmann

Retr0gamer

J. Marston wrote: »

That is something I can largely forgive in his character. His real daughter was shot and killed in his arms, that's gonna leave a mental scar that will affect his behaviour.

It explains but doesn't excuse his behaviour.

Penn

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Even the idea that Ellie needs constant protection is a dubious character trait of Joel's - a complex mix of good intention and selfishness. Ellie is, after all, the person who got them through the harsh, difficult winter when he needed to recuperate. Whether Ellie should give her life for the potential good of humankind... again, that should be Ellie's decision, not Joel's (Marlene is right when she says that exact thing). The Fireflies should have given her the choice... but so should Joel.

I come back to that very last shot of Ellie. The game sharply cuts to black at a moment of obvious doubt and uncertainty in her eyes about the man standing in front of her (it always stood out as being one of the first games with graphical fidelity good enough that they could cut away on such a clear, emotionally-loaded expression). TLOU ends on a note that is haunting and murky, and one that certainly didn't leave me with a positive impression of Joel or an optimistic note for either of their futures.

Agreed. Hence why the short walk to that area just before the scene, we're back to playing as Ellie. We're supposed to see that moment from her perspective (Joel is lying to her) rather than Joel's.

People also forget how close Ellie and Marlene were. Marlene was Ellie's mother's best friend and brought her into the Fireflies to protect her. She had Joel and Tess smuggle her out because it was too dangerous for her to go with Marlene due to the Fireflies being targeted. And with Joel's lie in the end, Ellie will suspect Joel killed Marlene.

The idea that Joel is some sort of beloved hero... No. Just no. He was the protagonist of the first game, but he is deeply flawed, selfish and it was only ever a matter of time before that got him killed. I think his time in Jackson and his time with Ellie probably made him a better person, but his past, whether from before or during the events of TLOU1 always ran the risk of catching up with him.

I thought Joel was a fantastic character. But good characters aren't always good people. Its easy to relate to him and sympathise with him because of his loss and the way the world went in general and what people had to do to survive in it, but it also doesn't excuse what he did.

gimli2112

The scene at the end where Joel tells Ellie he'd do it again and she opens the door to reconciliation was amazing and all the proof I needed he did the right thing. Unfortunately in this one the bad guys had a win.

18:09 - 19:50 sums up my take on TLOU2

mrkiscool2

leggo wrote: »

Like...it’s not real. The apocalyptic wasteland you speak of doesn’t exist, so the rules and philosophical question we’re asked to consider is based around what the creators tell us the reality is. And they’re very clear that Ellie was a legitimate cure to the virus. That’s the dramatic punch that underscores the entire ending of the first game. If she’s not a cure then the entire game doesn’t matter.

So all of the above is just rationalising the behaviour of a fictional character you like so you don’t have to deal with the moral quandary presented by his actions. You’re inventing scenarios and motives that just don’t exist and aren’t suggested in the script. That’s interesting, don’t get me wrong, but there’s no substance to your argument. It’s like being asked about the trolley problem and taking the stance “Well nobody would do that anyway, because in real life this is what would happen...” It’s not real life, it’s a dilemma with specific criteria created to force us to ask ourselves specific moral questions. And in this dilemma Ellie was the cure to this fictional virus and the fictional doctor Joel killed was the only one who could mine the cure to save humanity.

This would be a fair point if Druckman himself did not say he wanted the game to be realistic. But he did so your point kind of falls flat. Obviously the apocalypse isn't real, or the zombies, be he wants the characters to stand out and act like real people would outside of the gasmification elements.

J. Marston

2019...



2020...

SMC92Ian

Ellie getting all pissy with Joel over saving her yet at the same time love every second of life he's given her after, how happy she was at the Dino place then acts like "**** you Joel my life is shiiiiiiite"

It's ND own fault over the Joel backlash, if you go back and replay 1 they do make him out to be a hero, everyone, EVERYONE is a scummer in the first game. Bandits everywhere, trying to kill Ellie, David gonna rape or eat her, the fireflies being twats and pushing him around, wouldn't even let him see Ellie, my own mother sided with Joel and she only saw the start of 2, ND make him a hero in this world they made.

Yes Joel is a murderer but the way they built 1 is every single person (minus the end) he killed to protect Ellie or get through something for Ellie, it was all to get Ellie to the fireflies, without Joel there would be no Ellie even in the building to be tested.

I genuinely think that a literal piece of fiction can generate such debate is an amazing feat in itself tbh

Underground

Watched that Yongyea review and was surprised how negative he was on it, he's usually lenient enough on the big AAA games. Good review though, agreed with most of it.

Good point about how the game expects us to care about killing off named characters, despite shivving and shanking our way through hordes of npcs on the way there. The game dilutes the very message it's so desperate to send out in doing so. Spec Ops did it better, and I don't like that game either.

mrkiscool2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I genuinely think that a literal piece of fiction can generate such debate is an amazing feat in itself tbh

Some of the greatest and most talked about works of all time are fiction. But its fantastic a game is getting to that level. Can't say TLOU2 didn't bring something more to the industry.

Leroy42

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Ellie getting all pissy with Joel over saving her yet at the same time love every second of life he's given her after, how happy she was at the Dino place then acts like "**** you Joel my life is shiiiiiiite"

You don't know teenagers I assume.

"I never asked to be borne" is not an uncommon line to be thrown out. Couple that with Joel isn't her Dad and she suspects Joel may have killed Marlene.

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I genuinely think that a literal piece of fiction can generate such debate is an amazing feat in itself tbh

Wouldn't go praising it too much considering the discussion is mostly how it should have been better.

gimli2112

I think the discussion is pretty well balanced here. While I don't like it and wish it had never been made, paradoxically I think certain aspects of it are exceptional. I understand why people like the game and think these points have been well made here.

What surprises me is if you look on reddit it's almost universally despised and in the strongest possible terms. That's where I go to reassure myself I'm right after reading here

One thing's for sure, we're not talking about ACE Combat 7, as no-one cares!

Retr0gamer

You should be, it's the better game.

Leroy42

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Wouldn't go praising it too much considering the discussion is mostly how it should have been better.

Well, everything that almost always be better. The gameplay in the TLOU was nothing to write home about. Ellie being able to kill clickers with her little knife while Joel had to craft special tools.

There were plot holes in the first game. But as a piece of work it was exceptional. This game, IMO, does not meet the same exacting standard but there is little doubt that it is an incredible piece of work.

From a gamers POV, this is yet another pushing of the boundaries by ND, another example of how badly served players are by many of the games that are out there.

It is a good story, although I agree that it could have been better. It is good technically, graphically spectacular, gameplay is decent and the improvements (prone etc) do add to the game. To get 20+ hours of gameplay is good value, especially given some of the other dross out there.

I do think it would have been better served by reducing the total time, did we really need to trip to Scar island for example? I think they could have intertwined Abby and Ellie timelines better.

No loot boxes, no paid for power ups. Sure there is a bit of grinding for the pills and tools, but there are included as an integral part of the game.

It is an incredibly ambitious and complex thing that ND tried to pull off. I would think that they get it mostly right.

Retr0gamer

Now I'm very early days in the game but I've been kind of bored with the first five hours of the game and the writing really hasn't been great. It's frustrating because there's been some great set pieces already but once a cutscene starts I get really bored. And the puzzles are boring as well, I know they are in love with their rope physics but there are way too many of them. I'm hoping the gameplay to cutscene ratio ramps up later. I'm a good bit into Seattle and finding that boring as well. It's like it wants to be a tv series but the gameplay keeps getting in the way and if it was a tv series it would be laughed at for it's dialogue and writing. The first's writing was a lot better.

Story really hasn't grabbed me. I'm not interested in the world and while the first game was a character study set to a road trip this is just seems to be a story about violence and obsession destroying someone and that's kind of cliche. The original which wasn't perfect just did this so much better. It was at least better paced as well so I was never bored.

It's also a story I don't think needed to be told. Last of Us ended on the perfect note, I think a different story in the same setting would have been a better fit.

I'm kind of not enjoying it that much at the moment but I'll see if I can stick with it a bit longer. It's far from the real narrative masterclasses of gaming like Earthbound, Silent Hill 2, Journey or their ilk.

It might be a technical feat what Naughty Dog achieved but I don't think the end result is worth celebrating from what I've played. As for 20 hours of gameplay.... from initial impressions I feel this game is going to well outstay its welcome. I'm still interested enough to trudge through it though just to see where it goes but I fear my patience will wear out before the 20 hour run time is up.

gimli2112

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's also a story I don't think needed to be told. Last of Us ended on the perfect note, I think a different story in the same setting would have been a better fit.

couldn't agree more

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's also a story I don't think needed to be told. Last of Us ended on the perfect note, I think a different story in the same setting would have been a better fit.

I think that's the way they'll go for a third game. Maybe some references to the events or people in TLOU1&2, but I think for the sake of relative peace and quiet, they'll just do a new story with new characters. Probably for the best too.

gimli2112

I think the problem is if they had gone that way you would have had people (people like me I fear) complaining they wanted more Joel and Ellie. I guess you need to be careful what you wish for.
Just can't keep everyone happy. I wonder did they expect such a backlash?

Leroy42

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's also a story I don't think needed to be told. Last of Us ended on the perfect note, I think a different story in the same setting would have been a better fit.

gimli2112 wrote: »

couldn't agree more

But why? It was left with an open ending, nothing was resolved. Sure there was comfort in thinking that everyone lived (that was still alive!) happily ever after but that was never the intention of this world that ND created.

It is harsh, unforgiving, with death around every corner. I get the feeling that some people are not happy because their happy view of Ellie has been destroyed. But that fits in perfectly with the world she inhabits.

Ellie has been destroyed, consumed by this world. In TLOU she was a beacon of hope against the relentless negativity. She was the light that the fireflies had been looking for, but not because of her immunity, but her attitude and willing to look for the good in people, in stark contrast to the rest of the characters particularly Joel, but also Marlene who see Ellie as a tool to do what she wanted.

TLOU2 destroys that. I felt a genuine sense of loss at the end, the Ellie I knew was gone, this world was sinking deeper into the mire not transforming out of it. Even if they find a cure, will humanity be able to stop fighting each other long enough to save itself? FEDRA has been replaced by even more uncaring, dogmatic gangs and cults with only their own 'truth' being important.

Penn

gimli2112 wrote: »

I think the problem is if they had gone that way you would have had people (people like me I fear) complaining they wanted more Joel and Ellie. I guess you need to be careful what you wish for.
Just can't keep everyone happy. I wonder did they expect such a backlash?

I think they knew there'd be a backlash for killing Joel regardless of how it was done, but I think they felt Abby's story would negate it for most by the end. It did for me and for a lot, but I think no matter how well they tried to make Abby likeable or show her point of view, some people were just never going to side with her after killing Joel because of the first game, and they probably underestimated that and the vitriol that would come from that (particularly the death threats to Laura Bailey).

I doubt they could have foreseen the b*tching about Abby being too muscular too, but that's the type of mindset that is never worth taking into consideration anyway.

gimli2112

The sequel hasn't harmed my view of Ellie whom I still adore. Then again I think Joel was a good guy which is at odds with many of the views here. Some of Ellie's choices remain baffling. Going after Abby again, finding her and then letting her live just don't make sense to me.
I did like the ending of the first one, it was left to you to decide what happened next. I do like happy endings. Frozen would have cracked me up if they had left your one as a snowman. I appreciate I can't always get what I want but I don't have to be happy about it.

I don't know if I got a sense of loss at the end but I was pretty bummed out.