The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

leggo

I totally understand how people are upset about Joel dying, you’re meant to be, but I don’t get how that translates into a resentment for Abby when you play through the full game. One of the things I enjoy most about TLOU is how it forces you to reckon with the morality of what the game is forcing you to do. I loved how the sequel was based on one of the outstanding questions of the first game being “Did you kill all of the doctors?”

Joel was the protagonist and we can both like and sympathise with him, but he wasn’t a good guy. He allowed his daughter’s death to break him fundamentally to the point that he did some awful ****, as well as being so in denial about it he didn’t even want to remember her and rejected the picture of her that Tommy offered him. Then when he found a connection that allowed him to heal, he went into full entitled white guy mode and murdered a bunch of people trying to save humanity so he wouldn’t have to lose that, condemning the entire planet in the process. It reminds me of a line from The Sopranos: “How many people need to die for your personal growth?” Again we can like him in spite of all that because we sympathise with his story, but he deserved to die, if not by Abby’s hand then someone else’s.

Again I totally get the discomfort playing as Abby initially. I had avoided the spoilers but at the start of the game, as I heard her and Owen talk about “him”, I guessed that they’d end up killing Joel to set the game in motion and HATED playing as her, much less the switcheroo after the fact when I’d spent hours hunting her. But when I saw how Joel and Ellie looked from her standpoint, I got it, because even though I liked them I had also felt the same niggling feelings even playing the first game. You don’t get to partake in a mini-genocide and keep your ‘good guy’ stripes. At least with Abby her motives are central and focused: she wanted to kill Joel (and only Joel) because he killed her Dad. She wanted to kill Ellie (but stopped) because she killed her friends. At no point does white guy entitlement kick in as it does with Joel and Ellie. We meet her and she seems at peace with the world after killing Joel but not in a vindictive way, and we learn why. When we kill as her in the game it’s because she’s being hunted by sepharites or infected who are hunting and want to kill her. You can’t say the same as Joel in the first game (he doesn’t ask questions and just kills whatever is in front of him to get Ellie to the Fireflies) or Ellie in this (the WFL don’t even know she’s coming). That’s not to say Abby is ‘good’ and perfect, there is a sadism within her, but of two flawed people her cause makes me feel slightly less shady.

Grumpypants

It was the hospital scene that got me. They say, the lower floors are sealed off since the start, no one knows what is down there. And Abby the bad ass just jumps in.

Going around with the flame thrower I was reminded so much of Ellen Ripley in Aliens. I finished that section and was fully in her court.


The bit from the end section as Ellie I liked, was letting the two clickers in the pool off the chains. Smashing a bottle next to the enemy and sit back and watch as all hell breaks out.

leggo

Grumpypants wrote: »

The bit from the end section as Ellie I liked, was letting the two clickers in the pool off the chains. Smashing a bottle next to the enemy and sit back and watch as all hell breaks out.

I tried that but it just became a pain and I died a couple times because I’d forget the clickers weren’t now on my ‘team’ and would attack me too, so I ended up just leaving them and doing it the old fashioned way. :pac:

gimli2112

leggo wrote: »

full entitled white guy mode

here's where you lost me.

leggo

gimli2112 wrote: »

here's where you lost me.

Can we keep discussing TLOU2 and not derail this or are you gonna go full entitled white guy on me, prove my point and let this thread burn to protect your feelings too? :pac:

Or hows about take that ****e to twitter where it belongs

gimli2112

this is exactly why I'm distrustful of the defence of TLOU2. If you don't like the game you're a right wing anti-LGBT myoginist.
With regard to myself nothing could be further from the truth but I'm not going to engage in this further.
I like the game but hate the story btw although that's just semantics.

Joshua J

ND have played a blinder here in controlling narratives and attacking criticism of TLOU2. I've seen it all over the internet that if you express your dislike of the game you're some sort of homophobic, misogynistic, anti-trans Nazi. These "leaks" really worked out well for ND.

The Raging Bile Duct

I watched a couple more minutes of that Angry Joe review and he actively makes a show of not playing one of the Abbey flashbacks, passing the controller and walking out of the room like a petulant child. Totally gave up on it after that. How do people watch that lad. He's a pure dose.

ERG89

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I watched a couple more minutes of that Angry Joe review and he actively makes a show of not playing one of the Abbey flashbacks, passing the controller and walking out of the room like a petulant child. Totally gave up on it after that. How do people watch that lad. He's a pure dose.

I think that he is playing it up for his audience by doing that as much as anything too but as someone who doesn't watch his content regularly it does look petulant. A lot of YouTubers just deal in negativity or complaining as it gets clicks, not sure why as its blatantly forced and they mainly have no passion for what they deal with. The problem is you mainly draw in the type of fans who basically want their opinion told back to them.
I'll just take a look at a recent comment on the Angry Joe video from SilverSeraph83: "100% accurate review Glad I did not buy this!". Great stuff.
There are complaints about the last of us part ii just as their is for every game but the complaints that they didn't make the same game twice is not one of them.

The Raging Bile Duct

I think if your mindset is accurately reflected by the likes of Angry Joe, you've a bit of growing up to do.

SMC92Ian

Deleted User wrote: »

If you can remember Uncharted Lost Legacy

A mission pack to an extent to Uncharted 4

A much more condensed, focused game than 4 ever was

It's shorter also and flows so much better

I'd love if they considered something like that here and focused on Tommy and Joel for the few years previous and they could break into the breakdown in the relationship between Joel and Ellie properly

Theh could also add some backstory to Tommy and his Wife and how there relationship ended up the way it did

Just like with U4, Druckman had to shoehorn in f'n Troy into Lost Legacy.

BruteStock

leggo wrote: »

Joel was the protagonist and we can both like and sympathise with him, but he wasn’t a good guy. He allowed his daughter’s death to break him fundamentally to the point that he did some awful ****, as well as being so in denial about it he didn’t even want to remember her and rejected the picture of her that Tommy offered him. Then when he found a connection that allowed him to heal, he went into full entitled white guy mode and murdered a bunch of people trying to save humanity so he wouldn’t have to lose that, condemning the entire planet in the process.

If a man thinks he can single handily revert humanity from apocalyptic wasteland back to its original state , best think this man might have a screw lose.
The question if Joel was right or wrong can ultimately be discerned from the actions of other characters as the story continued.

The fact the continuation of the story doesn't care nor even mention that a cure can be made from Ellies head proves that Joel absolutely did the right thing.If humanity depended on it , Jerry would not have been the only doctor looking to extract a cure from Ellie's head.
If the argument that no other medical professionals exist , then that means it would have been impossible for Jerry to manufacture and distribute a vaccine.
But the Fireflies having a vaccine would have only made them a bigger target to rival factions , so they would have just kept it for themselves anyway.

"condemned all of humanity" haha!!

Furthermore , Joel may have done bad things in the context of civilised society , but in that world he was a survivor and a guardian of an innocent child.

Its hilarious how people like to vilify Joel for saving a life while at the same time try to make a hero out of a guy that wanted to take a life.

Ask yourself if Batman would have allowed Jerry to operate on Ellie.. Like hell he would. Jerry's irrational decision was an experiment , not a solution and anybody would have dealt with him the same way. Although his death could have been avoided had he not pulled a knife on the father-figure of the girl he was about to murder.

I would also argue that Joel was not a sympathetic character , but a relatable one. Joel was a beloved character to a generation of gamers from every gender and background as people related to his cause and motivations.

brianregan09

It's as simple as this put yourself in Joel's shoes , you'd do the exact same thing over and over , but put yourself in someone elses looking on and seeing the world doomed to be infected for ever you're not going to be rooting for him then

If something like this happened in real world , do you think a government or whatever wouldn't sacrifice one little girl if there was even a 1% chance a cure could be found

Elessar

I finished it today finally.

I didn't quite understand the ending. Abby and Ellie fight, Abby gets away and Ellie goes back to the house, plays guitar then reminisces about Joel and that's it? Sorry I might have missed it but what was the point of that? What did the ending mean?

What happened to Abby? What was the moral of the story here. I'm confused as hell and a bit disappointed.

Grumpypants

Elessar wrote: »

I finished it today finally.

I didn't quite understand the ending. Abby and Ellie fight, Abby gets away and Ellie goes back to the house, plays guitar then reminisces about Joel and that's it? Sorry I might have missed it but what was the point of that? What did the ending mean?

What happened to Abby? What was the moral of the story here. I'm confused as hell and a bit disappointed.

After the credits the menu screen has changed to show Abby made it to the island.

Ellie is alone, her whole revenge cost her everything, Dina & her family, even her fingers to play guitar which was important to her.

She wanted to forgive Joel but never got the chance before he died. This was a driving factor in her going back after Abby, she felt she owed him after being particularly mean to him.

mrkiscool2

YongYea, I guy I don't always agree with, absolutely nails it with this review
https://youtu.be/KOVH6l3jaFI

mutley18

How did I miss the part where Ellie plays Take On Me?! Where is it in game? Cant miss out a second time

Zero-Cool

mutley18 wrote: »

How did I miss the part where Ellie plays Take On Me?! :-( Where is it in game? Cant miss out a second time

In downtown seattle in the open world bit, look for the music shop, well worth finding it.

The Record Store below.

dzsfah2xoynme9

mutley18 wrote: »

How did I miss the part where Ellie plays Take On Me?! Where is it in game? Cant miss out a second time

It's near the start in seattle. Ellie and Diana are exploring the bit of downtown near the **** Fedra Gate. There's a music shop you can explore. Upstairs in a room there's a guitar. You'll know it's the right shop if you go up the stairs and see a pearl jam poster on the wall.

mutley18

I def wont miss it a second time, thanks lads

mrkiscool2

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I think if your mindset is accurately reflected by the likes of Angry Joe, you've a bit of growing up to do.

I mean, in some ways that's true. Doesn't mean his criticism can just be entirely ignored because of how he acts.

EDIT: Actually, let me expand on this. I think its an extremely vapid and disingenuous way of dealing with criticism you personally don't like to talk about a critic, a reviewer whatever as bad and therefore just dismiss anything they have to say. I can't stand the Dreamcastguy but some of his critics are valid. I think Upper Echelon Gamers is a bigot and an idiot, but some of his reviews are on point. There are plenty of reviewers I, personally, think have some fundamental flaws or I don't agree with but I can see where they are coming from in their critique.

If you can genuinely say you have never agreed with something a reviewer or critic you don't like has said, fair play. I don't believe you, but fair play. But to just dismiss criticism off-handedly the way you did there kinda shows your own bias.

The Raging Bile Duct

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

I mean, in some ways that's true. Doesn't mean his criticism can just be entirely ignored because of how he acts.

EDIT: Actually, let me expand on this. I think its an extremely vapid and disingenuous way of dealing with criticism you personally don't like to talk about a critic, a reviewer whatever as bad and therefore just dismiss anything they have to say. I can't stand the Dreamcastguy but some of his critics are valid. I think Upper Echelon Gamers is a bigot and an idiot, but some of his reviews are on point. There are plenty of reviewers I, personally, think have some fundamental flaws or I don't agree with but I can see where they are coming from in their critique.

If you can genuinely say you have never agreed with something a reviewer or critic you don't like has said, fair play. I don't believe you, but fair play. But to just dismiss criticism off-handedly the way you did there kinda shows your own bias.

Just because a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day doesn't mean it's any use. I honestly tried, twice, to watch that Angry Joe video but I think I'm not the target audience because my IQ doesn't match my shoe size.

Criticism of the game doesn't bother me. I criticised several elements of the game myself on this forum when I finished it. I'm a fan of cogent arguments about the - Johnny's take is great to read and is food for thought but the kind of nonsense the likes of that fella AJ peddles is lobotomizing.

gimli2112

joel > everyone

The Raging Bile Duct

I don't get the whole 'they're trying to make you hate Joel!!!' angle that so many people are running with. I think he's shown in a very sympathetic light throughout the game.

J. Marston

Finished. I saw the spoilers and despite my misgivings beforehand, ultimately it's a good game.

Abby is complicated. My initial reactions were "fúcking Raiden'd again in a series I love", she's likeable enough and her relationship with Lev, while not Ellie and Joel, is still pretty good.

But it's a big ask of players to look at things from both sides and weigh up the motivations of both characters when you've spent an entire game and a half with one character. It doesn't help that some of the writing is hamfisted and subtle as a sledgehammer.

Ellie and Joel went to a museum? Abby and Owen went to the Aquarium! Ellie used to be terrified of water? Abby is terrified of heights! Look, her dad is a super nice guy. He helped a zebra. A zebra! Feel for her!

These 5-10 minutes blocks of backstory for Abby are ultimately nothing compared to the history and attachment players have with Ellie and Joel.

It also doesn't help that Abby's crew, in my opinion, are quite boring. So while their deaths send her into a rage, I wasn't too bothered. I was actively rooting for Manny to be killed and was delighted when Tommy took his head off.

Also, the length of the game. I must not have the stamina I once had for games because it dragged and dragged after the 20 hour point. It feels like they just said "Yes" to anyone who had a suggestion for an environment.

Ellie's PTSD was actually a good route to go. She's been slaughtering people since she was 14. That is gonna take a mental toll (plus all the pills she pops to upgrade herself can't help!)

Anyway, good game but for me, certainly not a masterpiece. Roll on the multiplayer.

Retr0gamer

Late to the party. Gave in to the hype and bought this instead of waiting for the 30-25 euro sweet spot. And really regretting I did now.

It's.... fine. I'm up to Seattle now and had a bit of a wander but it really hasn't grabbed me and my mind is telling me how much it just wants to get back to FF13-2.

It's just so long a drawn out. The cutscenes take too long and there are so many sections were you walk slowly forward while being assaulted by exposition. And then there are the puzzle sections which are back and even more annoying than in the first game. I'm often stuck in an area trying to figure out how to leave it until I get the eureka moment and ask myself 'they dont expect me to drag that crate all the way over there?'. And so many rope puzzles because they are in love with their rope physics.

It's a shame because there's already been a few set pieces that have been great. Also a few jump scares and while I find jump scares very cheap and usually bad, they've worked well here. It's just every good moment has been interrupted by cutscenes that go on way too long. And the writing isn't great either with the Dina/Ellie relationship being some cringey teen drama stuff. The world just isn't interesting either since the first game, it feels like a place that houses these characters rather than an entity in and of itself that is driving the plot. It's just there to provide the odd action scene.

I'll stick with it but won't be surprised if I drop it before the end.

gimli2112

I really enjoyed the first playthrough (the Ellie bits anyway and ending notwithstanding) but I've struggled with the second. Partly I reckon as I changed the visuals so collectibles stand out, which breaks the immersion.