What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

My parents are both intelligent people (retired teachers), and are generally well read on most topics. Pretty conservative, although very much FG supporters. They'll watch RTE religiously for the news, listen to the radio, browse a few online sites, but don't stretch themselves much.

The thing is they're ignorant of immigration. Oh, they're aware it exists, and they're somewhat critical of the behavior of migrants they've encountered (my mother will relate a story about an African mother of a child pissing on the path inside the school grounds), but in terms of the effects on a macro level, nah. essentially clueless. Plenty of beliefs grounded in emotional or sympathetic reasoning, but little awareness of statistics, economics, etc in relation to the topic. While they're concerned about what's happening with the state of the Health service, the lack of housing, etc, they don't make any connections to the migrants. Migrants, as a group, receive positive praise, but individuals behave poorly.

And I suspect that's what most people in Ireland think of about immigration. Oh, sure, younger people may know more, but I imagine that's tempered by the activist/sjw presence on twitter, facebook or the general media, like CH4/Guardian.

Nope. Honestly, I would guess that few Irish people really know what's going on... and I doubt they care. Yet. The boom times aren't so long gone. When the recession fully hits, I would guess a change in awareness.

And thats the problem. As a race of people living in what was until recent years a country where the migration was nearly all outward, but now the tide has changed, and there is no natural experience of what multicultural is all about.. despite the effects it has had on other Countries where it was tried.

creeper1

The European Union has come up with a “new pact on migration”

Countries unwilling to provide asylum or access to local services/job market such as Poland and Hungary can pay what amounts to a fine to pay for their settlement or return to country of origin.

I have heard interviews of politicians in Poland and Hungary saying they are opting to pay the fines.

https://www.e-ir.info/2020/10/09/opinion-a-new-pact-on-migration-and-asylum-in-europe/

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

And thats the problem. As a race of people living in what was until recent years a country where the migration was nearly all outward, but now the tide has changed, and there is no natural experience of what multicultural is all about.. despite the effects it has had on other Countries where it was tried.

Yeah, true, but I think most people hearken back to the days when European culture, by itself, would cause integration, because people wanted to desperately to embrace 'our' more successful values. They haven't realised that Europe isn't as strong as it was before, nor that many migrants are just here for benefits/money, rather than admiring our culture.

The thing about Irish immigration to other countries is that far fewer people returned than those who stayed. So, they can't comprehend the idea that migrants won't embrace the destination culture (Irish Americans, are very American... while having a weird connection with Irish culture).

In addition, previous immigration was mostly of people who were from similar cultures. Westerners within western countries. Irish people rarely migrated to non-western nations, so there's little comprehension of what these foreign cultures actually represent (outside of the old books, and biased promoters)

Gervais08

marieholmfan wrote: »

FF are about explicitly embrace racism for electoral advantage.

Oh **** off with the “racism” accusations eh ?

No one cares about the colour of the mass influx of economic migrants - the number is key, along with the cultural background they may bring here.

17,000 more Chinese ? Grand. 17,000 more Malaysians ? Bring them on.

17,000 from a background known to be trouble and unlikely to work ? Piss right off.

upandcumming

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Manufactured consent, I believe it's called.

Voluntold is another!

biko

Should we open our borders for asylum seekers from Hong Kong?
There approx 7.5 million people there and they are now oppressed by the CCP.
US and Britain are accepting HK refugees.

How many should we accept?
Will they assimilate into Irish culture?
They are often highly skilled.

biko

biko wrote: »

They are often highly skilled.

How often?

The truth is that a large percentage of HK are lowly educated, and lowly skilled, including a wide range of people involved in questionable activities. HK has a massive underclass... do we accept them?

Geuze

biko wrote: »

Should we open our borders for asylum seekers from Hong Kong?
There approx 7.5 million people there and they are now oppressed by the CCP.
US and Britain are accepting HK refugees.

How many should we accept?
Will they assimilate into Irish culture?
They are often highly skilled.

In my opinion, no.

There is no need for any non-EU immigration.

There may be some firm in Ireland that needs non-EU workers, but this must be very limited.

What skills can't be got from re-skilling / up-skilling the thousands of unemployed and inactive people here, or drawing from the pool of 16m unemployed workers in the EU?

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

In my opinion, no.

There is no need for any non-EU immigration.

There may be some firm in Ireland that needs non-EU workers, but this must be very limited.

What skills can't be got from re-skilling / up-skilling the thousands of unemployed and inactive people here, or drawing from the pool of 16m unemployed workers in the EU?

Or an active campaign to attract Irish nationals living abroad to return... I know heaps of Irish people who would love to return but the cost of returning/getting set up again is too high VS staying where they are. (even were they able to find accommodation relatively near their workplaces)

[I'm not included in that. I won't return to living here full-time until a see a major shift in politics. Oh, I have a house and other assets here but I just don't trust Irish governments not to screw me]

Thanks for the thread, I had to sign up to add some thoughts, been following it lately along with all developments by the government over the last number of years.

Like most it seems in this thread I am deeply concerned with our immigration policies, it seems to be a never ending movement towards more and more open immigration policies with no discussion allowed that runs counter to the narrative.

Some bad points for me:
There is almost uniform support from all the political parties in Ireland for mass immigration.

There is no viable alternative, I will never vote for the National Party or IFP. They don't appeal to me on a number of other major issues. I'm left then essentially politically homeless, every election voting for independents who have no hope of getting elected. But I feel it is important to vote so will continue to do so.

The numbers coming into Ireland are over-whelming, I would support controlled immigration but we really don't have that. We had a brief respite a couple of years after the 2008 crash for a few of years when emigration increased and by default immigration numbers decreased.

I am hugely opposed to amnesties. This will act as a draw to hundreds of thousands more, this is what always happens in any country where it is tried. I believe in the rule of law and hate to see people being rewarded for not following the legal pathways.

I have contacted various public representatives, TD'S and councilors with my concerns. I have never received a reply off any of them over the years when it comes to issues of immigration. I also brought it up at the last election cycle with a FG canvasser who looked shocked when I mentioned it and responded by telling me that there was no issue with immigration in Ireland and then promptly walked away




Some good points for me:

We are entering an economic downturn which will reduce numbers. Not a great way to think about it but that is effectively the only way we have of controlling numbers at the moment

Things are turning all over Europe, this will eventually happen in Ireland too. There may well be blowback from the EU and the commission along with the British for some of the things the government are currently doing. They do not want backdoors created and regularization of illegals happening.

I look to Denmark where even the left wing Social Democrats are turning away from open borders and mass immigration. Will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next number of years. I am slightly cynical as to whether they were playing politics in order to get into government. Looking at Britain, even Irish politicians know that Brexit was essentially about immigration and they cannot dismiss the fact that Irish feelings could turn eventually (Not necessarily about leaving the EU but about huge volumes immigrating every year)

Right now Fianna Fail and Fine Gael along with Sinn Fein are receiving very little blowback for their policies so there is no incentive for them to adopt a harder stance. They may have to eventually.

Looking at France, it is great to see Macron's new policies announced in 2019, again he may be electioneering in order to stave off the threat from the National Rally but if he is being honest I would support similar policies in Ireland. It would be hard for the Mainstream media and social media commentators to consistently accuse him of been a racist/facist etc.....The last time I looked at Macron's new policies he wanted to allow freedom of movement to continue within the EU, which nearly everyone agrees with. He also wanted France to take a number of refugees every year, again I agree if the numbers are controlled. His most interesting proposal to me was non-EU immigration which he wants to cap at 30,000 a year into France. Considering they have a population of 67 million, our figure relative to that would be anywhere between 2-3000 general immigrants every year net. I would have no issue with this. Obviously the numbers right now are way over that but we live in hope.

My final point of things to be hopeful, people say the issue isn't been discussed and I agree it isn't in the media or by politicians but over the last number of years more and more people are discussing this amongst themselves and not just Irish people. I work in I.T. where there is a huge number of immigrants and I increasingly hear and talk to people from Europe and especially India who are also concerned about the numbers.

There is hope out there, don't despair

PS: I support immigration but if we don't control it it is going to lead to huge issues for both Irish and the immigrants themselves. At the next election if this is a concern to you tell the politicians/canvassers who call to your door. They won't do anything about it but let them know it's an issue, that is how things will slowly start to change.

Arthur Daley

Arthur Daley wrote: »

If mass immigration is popular electorally for FG and FF they will achieve something no other country has. Mass immigration has failed politically everywhere.

Politically there is no option though, if you don't believe in mass immigration there is no viable party to vote for, maybe Aontu from what I can see on their website (https://aontu.ie/issues/immigration/) but I haven't heard Peadar Tobin make any comments about it except for that hes in favour of ending DP. Frankly they've got one TD and I don't see them improving that greatly in the next election in spite of polling at 6%. If you don't believe in mass immigration there is no party to vote for that could potentially be in Government IMHO.

Even someone like Michael McDowell, seems to either have had a massive change of heart or knows that he would be excoriated on twitter for wrongthink by the extremely small amount of the very vocal electorate every party seems to be trying to win.

If you look at the volt face that FG have done on this issue in a year or two, when this debate was happening before they couldn't support it and now seem all in favour.

All the very left parties should not be in favour of mass immigration or mass naturalisation of illegal immigrants because of what it will do to lower paid workers but they all seem completely in favour of it. Lets face it if the 17k illlegal workers are given a pathway to citizenship, they will be 17k (plus family) low paid workers a lot of whom will end up on the housing list etc

Hamachi

Deleted User wrote: »

I have contacted various public representatives, TD'S and councilors with my concerns. I have never received a reply off any of them over the years when it comes to issues of immigration. I also brought it up at the last election cycle with a FG canvasser who looked shocked when I mentioned it and responded by telling me that there was no issue with immigration in Ireland and then promptly walked away

@Peter, just wanted to say great post and I thoroughly agree with everything you conveyed. I sincerely hope that the grounds for optimism you have identified, gain traction in the coming years.

Incidentally, I had a similar reaction from a FG canvasser in the run up to the last GE when I raised the topic of immigration. The first attempt to silence me was "shure the Irish emigrated everywhere" and the second was the puerile "we've gone global, get used to it".

I talked him through my specific concerns around the abuse of the asylum system, illegal entry, and the language student debacle. In fairness to him, he did listen, but it was obvious that he couldn't wait to extricate himself from the conversation.

The only way this issue will be treated with the immediacy it merits, is if people continue to voice their concerns to their local representatives. I would urge everybody posting on this thread, plus the thousands of folks who have left a page impression but not commented, to express your concerns and articulate those thoughts that are currently unvoiced.

What's abundantly clear is that it is up to us, the Irish people, to steer the ship away from the iceberg. The political class would rather see us sink than take any steps for the greater good of the nation.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the thread, I had to sign up to add some thoughts, been following it lately along with all developments by the government over the last number of years.

You're very welcome to the thread. Great post.

Kivaro

During the last general election, a local councillor and a TD, who was elected, called to my door. When asked about my concerns, I said only one. I explained to them that I had family members priced out of the local town because most of the housing stock was bought up by the council or a housing agency. When I mentioned that the majority of those now housed in these social houses were either Roma Gypsy or African refugees, I asked if they thought it was fair that working Irish couples were not able to afford to get on the housing market due to unfair competition from tax sponsored entities/agencies.

The look of fear in the eyes of these seasoned politicians spoke volumes. It is obviously a taboo subject for them, and their sheep-like responses only reiterated the lack of courage in tackling a substantial problem all over the country.

But if it is one thing we need to do, and it should be done at every opportunity, it is to embarrass our elected representatives and shock them into eventually standing up for us.

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

The only way this issue will be treated with the immediacy it merits, is if people continue to voice their concerns to their local representatives. I would urge everybody posting on this thread, plus the thousands of folks who have left a page impression but not commented, to express your concerns and articulate those thoughts that are currently unvoiced.

What's abundantly clear is that it is up to us, the Irish people, to steer the ship away from the iceberg. The political class would rather see us sink than take any steps for the greater good of the nation.

I understand the logic of what you're saying people should do, but you're using a system that politicians created themselves to give people the impression that they're being listened to.. regardless of whether they are or not. The local representatives, with only a few exceptions, will hold their loyalty to their party, not the electorate.

I think the media is the answer here. Social media, mainstream media, etc. Hit the media with constant requests to represent the other side of the story, and to highlight the dangers of mass immigration. Raise the internet presence of the objections, encouraging people to engage in logical/reasoned discussions. A bit like the move away from traditional male rights activism, which was ignorant and often aggressive, and more towards reasoned debate. Encourage that people inform their friends, family, etc of the realities of the statistics..

Now.. I'm thoroughly disillusioned with Irish politics, and the overall system, and I feel that many others feel similar. I don't think our politicians care what we think, because apart from the illusionary loss of power from elections, we really can't do much to them. They've created/modified the system, and the rules to benefit them..

titan18

I live in Cork South Central so have Martin, McGrath, Coveney and O Laoghaire here and not one of them or their canvassers actually turned up coming up to the general election. I thought at least O Laoghaire would but nah no one. 4 of them know they'll get in no matter what so don't even bother

goose2005

Deleted User wrote: »

All the very left parties should not be in favour of mass immigration or mass naturalisation of illegal immigrants because of what it will do to lower paid workers but they all seem completely in favour of it. Lets face it if the 17k illlegal workers are given a pathway to citizenship, they will be 17k (plus family) low paid workers a lot of whom will end up on the housing list etc

Most left parties are very distant from lower-paid workers

Kivaro

Kivaro wrote: »

The look of fear in the eyes of these seasoned politicians spoke volumes. It is obviously a taboo subject for them, and their sheep-like responses only reiterated the lack of courage in tackling a substantial problem all over the country.
.

They live in fear of Dobbo type journalist ripping them to shreds about being a racist or not having sufficient concern for the most down trodden. They can see their careers flashing before their eyes

Our journalists are a big reason this topic can't be discussed.

conorhal

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand the logic of what you're saying people should do, but you're using a system that politicians created themselves to give people the impression that they're being listened to.. regardless of whether they are or not. The local representatives, with only a few exceptions, will hold their loyalty to their party, not the electorate.

I think the media is the answer here. Social media, mainstream media, etc. Hit the media with constant requests to represent the other side of the story, and to highlight the dangers of mass immigration. Raise the internet presence of the objections, encouraging people to engage in logical/reasoned discussions. A bit like the move away from traditional male rights activism, which was ignorant and often aggressive, and more towards reasoned debate. Encourage that people inform their friends, family, etc of the realities of the statistics..

Now.. I'm thoroughly disillusioned with Irish politics, and the overall system, and I feel that many others feel similar. I don't think our politicians care what we think, because apart from the illusionary loss of power from elections, we really can't do much to them. They've created/modified the system, and the rules to benefit them..

The order of the governments priorities, when it comes to who they listen to, seems to be:

1) Their EU masters who provide cushy positions and pensions on their gravy train.

2) The QUANGO's/NGO's onto whom the government have shifted so much of the decision making, because they're practically allergic to the very concept of accountability.

3) Big business, MNC's and the brown envelope waving 'local businessmen' that keep the gravy boat full.

4) The media, because they understand perfectly well that a hostile media can impact their electoral chances.

5) And finally in a distant fifth place, the electorate to whom politicians have to debase themselves to pay lip service to every 5yrs or so before promptly forgetting about them.

I was chatting to a mate of mine about Brexit lately and he seemed mystified by the Brits decision to leave.
I pointed out to him that people are frustrated with the lack of their government's accountability to the people for decisions they make, often decisions that are seemingly at odds with the good of the people.
They saw the opportunity to move from 5th to 4th position in the pecking order of who gets a look in when decisions get made and took it. If they could take an axe to the influence of the other three in that order I think they would take it, but nobody going to be foolish enough to allow them vote on QUANGO's and MNC influence.


And yes, a lot of this has to do with the pressure mass immigration is placing on society.
Even in liberal Canada only 17% of people approve of Trudeau's new immigration plan to increase migrants with a 'target' of 400,000 next year, a target that would increase year on year.

They're going to get it wether they want it or not though. Very democratic. You have to wonder who's advice Trudeau's taking because it certiantly isn't the electorate:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-06/trudeau-s-plan-to-ramp-up-immigration-falls-flat-with-canadians


We're suffering the same disconnect here and sooner or later there's going to be an accountability crunch if our politicians keep telling the electorate to 'eat cake'.

V8 Interceptor

Deleted User wrote: »

They live in fear of Dobbo type journalist ripping them to shreds about being a racist or not having sufficient concern for the most down trodden. They can see their careers flashing before their eyes

Our journalists are a big reason this topic can't be discussed.

We don't have any journalists. We have propaganda mouthpieces all safely on script.

conorhal

conorhal wrote: »

We're suffering the same disconnect here and sooner or later there's going to be an accountability crunch if our politicians keep telling the electorate to 'eat cake'.

Will there be? I'm not sure there will. I feel that when it comes to Irish people and a national culture, people seem to embrace the need to suffer... suffer through things, almost like some kind of penance. There's a need to set themselves up for a world of hurt, and then feeeeel the virtue through suffering the consequences.

We've had so many things over the last three decades which could have been avoided had politicians sought alternative answers to what was applied elsewhere, but nah. Just as people voted back in FF, in spite of everything they did before. Without any expectation that they would be different, just reverting to habits/tradition.

I suspect there won't be any accountability until we see the whole edifice burnt down. No half measures. Something or a series of somethings will culminate with people burning it all down... but I don't expect anything substantial to happen until then. The politicians aren't going to reform themselves, and our watchdogs are more interested in conditioning the population, than reining in the politicians.

As for the EU, it's an infant that has reached it's early teens now... politicians and bureaucrats saw it as a cash cow initially. A place to twist tails, and make money, or signs of virtue. A greater scam than the county councils, or the educational boards in Ireland. However, like all such organisations, it will grow into something better... until it reverts to being useless, like the UN did. Nah. I have high hopes for the EU, and it's influence over what happens in Ireland.. although there will come a time when the EU, as an institution, will be corrupt and a danger to Irish peoples freedoms. That day isn't here yet though.

Sesshoumaru

Has anyone got a summary of this thread? I don't mind debating immigration honestly - just not sure where to start when it's 310 pages long!

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Has anyone got a summary of this thread? I don't mind debating immigration honestly - just not sure where to start when it's 310 pages long!

Just work backwards, and read Wibbs posts... or any post that's received more than five likes. You'll get a pretty good overview that way.

(I tend to read the last ten pages on joining a thread, but I get that many don't like reading that much)

Tipperary animal lover

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/man-charged-relation-165000-pup-19424331

Another day another scammer, great little country,

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Has anyone got a summary of this thread? I don't mind debating immigration honestly - just not sure where to start when it's 310 pages long!

Just stick down your own thoughts, for or against, no one knows who you are . I've been reading boards for years and only posted on this thread because it's an issue that I have a big interest in.

My own opinion is I am pro-migration if it is controlled properly and in sustainable numbers. I don't believe that is the case in Ireland at the moment. I believe the numbers are way to high. I admit I could be an outlier in this regard because the electorate continue to vote for parties who support what I consider mass immigration.

The main thing that annoys me when discussing immigration is if people whether for or against refuse to give a numerical answer to the question of how many, it doesn't have to be exact obviously. I would respect someone more if they said they wanted 100,000 a year net migration to Ireland than someone who gave a generic answer of saying they just support migration. I gave my own figures in a previous post a few pages back.

enricoh

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/man-charged-relation-165000-pup-19424331

Another day another scammer, great little country,

A 'cork man ' has been charged according to the examiner! Makes a change from romanians scamming it, good to be spreading the wealth.
The judge approved him getting free legal aid, after him pulling 165k that they know about so far ! We deserve to be milked blind for tolerating this crap.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEDVQGLcMXW-dl3RLhSHaO1kqGAgEKg8IACoHCAowyNLTATDN-jUwx53hBg?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen

Bashiru Aderibige, of 37 Bannog, Dwyers Road, Midleton, appeared before Mallow District Court in relation to 21 counts of fraudulently claiming the PUP.

Eric Cartman

enricoh wrote: »

A 'cork man ' has been charged according to the examiner! Makes a change from romanians scamming it, good to be spreading the wealth.
The judge approved him getting free legal aid, after him pulling 165k that they know about so far ! We deserve to be milked blind for tolerating this crap.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEDVQGLcMXW-dl3RLhSHaO1kqGAgEKg8IACoHCAowyNLTATDN-jUwx53hBg?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen

Bashiru Aderibige, of 37 Bannog, Dwyers Road, Midleton, appeared before Mallow District Court in relation to 21 counts of fraudulently claiming the PUP.

ahh is he of the famous Cork Aderibige's , sure they're everywhere with roots as far back as the GAA. A recognisable solid Irish name there.

Kivaro

enricoh wrote: »

A 'cork man ' has been charged according to the examiner! Makes a change from romanians scamming it, good to be spreading the wealth.
The judge approved him getting free legal aid, after him pulling 165k that they know about so far ! We deserve to be milked blind for tolerating this crap.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEDVQGLcMXW-dl3RLhSHaO1kqGAgEKg8IACoHCAowyNLTATDN-jUwx53hBg?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen

Bashiru Aderibige, of 37 Bannog, Dwyers Road, Midleton, appeared before Mallow District Court in relation to 21 counts of fraudulently claiming the PUP.

He is not a Cork man. He is a Nigerian (born in Nigeria), and maybe living in Cork with Irish citizenship, but stop with this business as if he was a native born committing these crimes. I'm sure there are indigenous Corkonians doing similar crimes, but let's have some honesty with Irish media reporting.

Another question: Do you think that there may be something seriously wrong with the PUP system in Ireland if one man can amass over €165,000 as part of this fraud? And yes, he is getting free legal aid, (it's not free by the way, Irish workers pay for it) because expecting him to pay for his legal expenses would be racism in this instance.

Just to re-iterate some facts from an earlier post of mine:
The no. 1 EU country with their nationals getting Irish citizenship since 2005 is Romania.
The no. 1 non-EU country with their nationals getting Irish citizenship since 2005 is Nigeria.

It looks like a new terrible beauty has been born.
Ireland has sleepwalked into a future of similar stories from similar individuals on an industrial scale due to our terribly lax standards of residency requirements and citizenship.

Bail tho...

Arthur Daley

Deleted User wrote: »

My own opinion is I am pro-migration if it is controlled properly and in sustainable numbers. I don't believe that is the case in Ireland at the moment. I believe the numbers are way to high. I admit I could be an outlier in this regard because the electorate continue to vote for parties who support what I consider mass immigration.

I'd say a truer assessment is that all political parties elected in Ireland, and their media don't allow any real discussion of mass migration. (that in itself has the alarm bells ringing)

They don't mention it because they know right well that it's unpopular. And they dare not point out to the electorate how many they've allowed in over the last 20 years. That is how dishonest all of these actors are.

They hope to boil the frog, nobody notices until it's way too late, and will label dissenters are racists and xenophobes in the meantime. It's hardly a sophisticated operation we are dealing with here.

How much was it mentioned as a key issue during the February 2020 general election? Barely.

And yet here we are.