What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Tea drinker

Geuze wrote: »

It is well established that the vast majority of AS are bogus - they are not fleeing persecution.

They may live in hardship, yes, but hardship is not a basis for claiming asylum.

Peaceful guys like Obama and VP Biden created many real refugees in Iraq, Syria and Libya. People are fine with this. Same people scream to let in more refugees/migrants, and will never see their own probably racist role in supporting the creation of refugees.
I don't know if it's too little time or energy to look beyond what social media or Fox news tells people. The real issue seems to be people are making very poorly informed decisions, and are a little cowed to move from the commonly held belief where they can take comfort in being "right".

creeper1

Mules wrote: »

To me it seems like many of those in favour of mass immigration believe in it out of ideology. There doesn't seem to be much logic behind it.


What puzzles me is that having seen the trouble it's caused in Europe, the Irish government is still going full stream ahead with the immigration.

e.

https://youtu.be/61MhDlnkfQA

Take a look at this video at 8.40. It explains why Ireland will take its “fair share” of migrants. Ireland would need to become like Poland/Hungary or leave the Europe Union altogether. What are the chances of any of that happening?

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is for the people who immigrate INTO The eu.

Actually, you'll find that in most cases, migrants passed dozens of safe places where they could have found somewhere to settle before arriving in the EU. People like to make out as if to say that Western countries are the only options out there but there are a variety of African nations which are doing quite well, same with most of Asia, etc. and for Muslims, there are a variety of options with decent economies, and who match their cultural backgrounds.

However, they hold out until they can arrive in the EU. It's not about need. So what is it about? Come on, let's see some honesty.

ThunbergsAreGo

Cordell wrote: »

TBF that is the only realistic option. They can't deport 17K people, not only because of the outrage but it's simply impractical, so giving them legal status is the next best thing, at least some of them will be able to work legally and pay taxes.

Yes they can deport them if government actually governed and didn't take Twitter polls to decide issues.

The uproar would be small in reality, but massive on Social Media

ThunbergsAreGo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Yes they can deport them if government actually governed and didn't take Twitter polls to decide issues.

The uproar would be small in reality, but massive on Social Media

Pretty much. The problem with them being so connected to their social media, (apart from the Irish concerns) is that they care too much what people not in Ireland say too (and the stream of activists, and NGO accounts). So, there will be criticisms, and extreme comments thrown around from all around the world, which will convince them that it's a 'bad' idea. They care more about foreigners opinions than Irish opinions.

"Between 1993 and 2001, during the Presidency of Bill Clinton, about 1,870,000 people were deported. Between 2001 and 2008, during the Presidency of George W. Bush, about 2.0 million people were deported, while between 2009 and 2016, during the Presidency of Barack Obama, about 3.2 million people were deported."

But nah, Ireland couldn't do that... why not?

ThunbergsAreGo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pretty much. The problem with them being so connected to their social media, (apart from the Irish concerns) is that they care too much what people not in Ireland say too (and the stream of activists, and NGO accounts). So, there will be criticisms, and extreme comments thrown around from all around the world, which will convince them that it's a 'bad' idea. They care more about foreigners opinions than Irish opinions.

"Between 1993 and 2001, during the Presidency of Bill Clinton, about 1,870,000 people were deported. Between 2001 and 2008, during the Presidency of George W. Bush, about 2.0 million people were deported, while between 2009 and 2016, during the Presidency of Barack Obama, about 3.2 million people were deported."

But nah, Ireland couldn't do that... why not?

Its actually ridiculous, and I realise the numbers are still small enough (though 17k is half a Leitrim) but it's the attitude that stinks.

I am left leaning on most social issues, but this current system on coming, appeal, make legal people touch, be let stay has to stop.

Decision in 4 weeks, stay or deport.

And dont even get me started on NGOs, I guess there opinion is important given half the country seem to work in them with new ones every day.

ThunbergsAreGo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Its actually ridiculous, and I realise the numbers are still small enough (though 17k is half a Leitrim) but it's the attitude that stinks.

I don't see the numbers as small, unless they're small enough that deportation is a valid response for them all?

Fact is, we could probably cut down the deportations by selecting those who can provide a solid contribution to the economy, or can provide necessary skills which are in demand... but I suspect we'd still be looking at 12k-14k to be deported at the end, because people often don't prepare themselves well for migrating.

I've lived/worked in 9 countries now.. in most cases I didn't leave those countries because I didn't like them, but because the employment market dried up for the area I was qualified to work in, and so, my visa's became harder to acquire. At this stage now (through further education as an adult), I'm pretty well qualified, but when I started working abroad, I just had a basic degree, which severely limited my options.

We need to canvas all these undocumented migrants and determine whether they're a benefit or liability for the country. It's time for Ireland to start preparing for the hard times ahead, rather than expecting another boom to bail us out.

biko

Gervais08 wrote: »

They even got a commentator to talk of open borders being necessary.

It's imperative that people and opinions like this are debated as the extremists they are.

Speak to your TD, get their opinions on these matters and make sure they understand your views.
Give them an understanding of what regular people in their constituency think.

TomTomTim

biko wrote: »

It's imperative that people and opinions like this are debated as the extremists they are.

Speak to your TD, get their opinions on these matters and make sure they understand your views.
Give them an understanding of what regular people in their constituency think.

It really should be the duty of our national broadcaster to have debates as such, as it's fundamental to democracy. Democracy can't function in any sort of serious sense when the likes of RTE have contempt for diversity of opinion. They are quite happy to allow one sided dogma fill their airwaves with little to no dissent. This kind of ideological narrowness is what I'd expect to find in a dictatorship, not a "free" country.

biko

TomTomTim wrote: »

They are quite happy to allow one sided dogma fill their airwaves with little to no dissent.

The problem is they are in an echo chamber where they spiral downwards to think everyone in the country thinks like them.
And with no one writing opposing opinion pieces in newspapers or challenging RTE they have no reason to think otherwise.

suicide_circus

Unity > Diversity

Discuss.

km991148

biko wrote: »

The problem is they are in an echo chamber where they spiral downwards to think everyone in the country thinks like them.
And with no one writing opposing opinion pieces in newspapers or challenging RTE they have no reason to think otherwise.

People in an echo chamber complain about people being stuck in an echo chamber.

Its a massive problem in the modern world and its not limited to RTE and the like.

Mules

creeper1 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/61MhDlnkfQA

Take a look at this video at 8.40. It explains why Ireland will take its “fair share” of migrants. Ireland would need to become like Poland/Hungary or leave the Europe Union altogether. What are the chances of any of that happening?

Fabulous No wonder the government has been pushing immigration. There isn't a hope in hell of us becoming like Hungary or Poland. The government/ media always have to be seen in the best light abroad. The EU is a sacred cow.

goose2005

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought the show was brilliant up to that point. Then they just had to throw in a bit of open borders politicking. You can only imagine what the Irish getting off on Ellis island looked like back then, penniless, gaunt, sick, heartbroken. Compared to the healthy looking groups of well fed young men in the latest sportswear jumping off boats in the Med with their fists in the air.

Ellis Island wasn't open at the time

Sir Oxman

TomTomTim wrote: »

It really should be the duty of our national broadcaster to have debates as such, as it's fundamental to democracy. Democracy can't function in any sort of serious sense when the likes of RTE have contempt for diversity of opinion. They are quite happy to allow one sided dogma fill their airwaves with little to no dissent. This kind of ideological narrowness is what I'd expect to find in a dictatorship, not a "free" country.

Manufactured consent, I believe it's called.

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

People in an echo chamber complain about people being stuck in an echo chamber.

Its a massive problem in the modern world and its not limited to RTE and the like.

The difference is that opposing opinions are encouraged here, and we want to engage with others because it improves our own understanding of the topic. I like having reasonable discussions with others because it forces me to re-evaluate my opinions, or to adjust my logical arguments. It's a pity that we've had so little reasonable argument here, with most posters jumping into the mud, to sling it at others, rather than argue with facts/statistics/etc.

However, when you look at RTE, in most cases the comments are disabled, or moderated heavily with opinions that don't support their stance being removed. Their programs don't seek to show a variety of views, but rather seek to promote a single viewpoint on everything.

It's a problem with media because it reflects the change in the internet. Since they're so connected all the time to online opinion, they seek to identify/create factions, and place people within those created categories.

Gervais08

goose2005 wrote: »

Ellis Island wasn't open at the time

No but you know what was meant.

My grandad landed at Ellis Island in 1903 and worked his bollocks off for 20 years while being treated as the lowest of the low.

He’d be sick to see the plight of his countrymen conflated with chancers with the best of everything breaking the law and being compared to his generation who left for work rather than starve - or worse, those leaving during the Famine who often did.

Wibbs

goose2005 wrote: »

Ellis Island wasn't open at the time

Indeed and when it was immigrants were marked out as sick, undernourished, suffering "moral decay" and many were refused entry. And this was a nation founded and reliant upon immigration. The Irish making the trip in the Famine days would likely have been more on the healthy side for the most part. Well they had enough money for the fare to get to the US for a start.

Regardless, comparing Irish(or any) immigration of the past to nations built on and in need of more people to colonise and drive industry is very different to today. It's an "argument" based on feelz, not logic, or economics, or facts, or history.

Wibbs

km991148 wrote: »

Its a massive problem in the modern world and its not limited to RTE and the like.

Indeed it's not. Mixed debate is becoming rarer and rarer online and off. Though I would argue it's always been thus for the most part. Birds of a feather/water finds its own level etc. For much of history human nature sought out those who agreed with their own views on most things and excluded dissent. One could argue the earlier days of the interwebs with general forums with no downvotes etc were the outlier and an all too brief one.

People in an echo chamber complain about people being stuck in an echo chamber.

OK, but the singular difference is Km, you can say that. You can say you don't agree with this or any other thread subject you see as an echo chamber and those in it have to read it and some will respond. Try doing that in actual echo chambers where dissent is either never invited in the first place, or blocked and deleted, or downvoted to oblivion so the local Truth(tm) remains untroubled. This includes RTE and others. You will very rarely see or hear any dissenting viewpoints.

Even more than that, if you choose to you can continue and post counter arguments to the mainstream opinion.

Sadly on this particular matter I can think of only three posters who did and didn't go down the route of either a single post that went nowhere beyond registering disagreement, or those where name calling and insult was the go to when their arguments fell flat.

Like I said earlier I have been genuinely surprised by the lack of a cogent argument in favour of multiculturalism as a politic and philosophy. I really expected more for what is such an seemingly obvious given we're led to believe is so right. I certainly was far more in that camp.

km991148

It's getting off topic Wibbs, but maybe people just don't care enough or have the energy to debate such a topic on boards.ie.

I am not saying this to be a contrarian or anything, but if I understand correctly, we are saying there are people here looking for an open and honest debate and don't seem to be getting it.
Maybe there is a level of expectation with certain subjects on boards that just puts people off (Again, just looking at the potential reasons,. not necessarily saying this is the case).

zephyro

Wibbs wrote: »

Like I said earlier I have been genuinely surprised by the lack of a cogent argument in favour of multiculturalism as a politic and philosophy. I really expected more for what is such an seemingly obvious given we're led to believe is so right.

For the primarily comfortable upper-middle class minority that support it (and other progressive causes-celebre), logic or cogent argument is neither required nor relevant. It makes them feel better about themselves, therefore it must by definition be right and good.

Wibbs

Oh sure K, there's definitely an element of that. I find it interesting what subjects will tend to be avoided. People find the energy easily enough when they've some wriggle room in a debate regardless of their position. If they don't they either avoid or start scattergun jibes. We saw that in SSM and abortion debates. Those defending the indefensible got short shrift. It's the more "taboo" subjects that tend to attract this. Cast Iron Truths another.

I would say that multiculturalism is the latter. We just blindly accept multiculturalism must be right. I mean it's obvious isn't it? Isn't it? We feel it must be on an emotional level. What is surprising and not a little discomforting is when we look more at the realities, the actual realities, they don't stack up for many demographics within multicultural societies and those narratives are remarkably consistent and resistant to change socially or politically over many many decades elsewhere, but this time we'll get it right. Even though with barely two decades of it under our belt the exact same narratives are in play. Even though other nations that have had to deal with the realities are now dialling back on the concept. There is very much the scent of the emperor's new clothes about it.

TomTomTim

km991148 wrote: »

It's getting off topic Wibbs, but maybe people just don't care enough or have the energy to debate such a topic on boards.ie.

I am not saying this to be a contrarian or anything, but if I understand correctly, we are saying there are people here looking for an open and honest debate and don't seem to be getting it.
Maybe there is a level of expectation with certain subjects on boards that just puts people off (Again, just looking at the potential reasons,. not necessarily saying this is the case).

They only real expectation is honesty of approach/good faith. I'd say out of the 30 or 40 posters who've popped up in this thread to dissent, at most one of them could tick that box. The rest of them have nothing but insults and slander. It's a good part of the reason the debate never reaches the top, because the whole ideology might be exposed. It's very easy to be persuaded by one side of an argument, when you haven't seen the other side. Most Irish people have never got near a good faith debate on the topic, because our masters fear the outcome.

Wibbs

TomTomTim wrote: »

Most Irish people have never got near a good faith debate on the topic, because our masters fear the outcome.

In my humble no conspiracy of masters is required. It's just as likely that politicians have never questioned Truths like this anyway as it would be political suicide, or they think it will be, or they quite simply believe it from repetition and that it's so obvious it doesn't require any investigation. As history has shown time and time again it is far easier to just go along with the accepted truths of your time.

Arthur Daley

If mass immigration is popular electorally for FG and FF they will achieve something no other country has. Mass immigration has failed politically everywhere.

I think some of these jumped up county councillors fancy themselves as frontiersmen in their own heads though. And we just have the misfortune of having to live out their fantasies.

More likely they will continue to gas themselves to death politically in a woke fog, as they have been doing for a few years now.

Expect France to have a humdinger of a reaction in 2022 when Marine Le Pen takes on Macron again. This is almost as significant to Ireland as the Brexit votes in a way, as it is at the heart of Europe. Macron is making shapes already, but few in France are naïve or stupid enough to buy it.

marieholmfan

Arthur Daley wrote: »

If mass immigration is popular electorally for FG and FF they will achieve something no other country has. More likely they will continue to gas themselves to death in a woke fog, as they have been doing for a few years now.

Expect France to have a humdinger of a reaction in 2022 when Marine Le Pen takes on Macron again. This is almost as significant to Ireland as the Brexit votes in a way, as it is at the heart of Europe. Macron is making shapes already, but few in France are naïve or stupid enough to buy it.

FF are about explicitly embrace racism for electoral advantage.

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

It's getting off topic Wibbs, but maybe people just don't care enough or have the energy to debate such a topic on boards.ie.

I am not saying this to be a contrarian or anything, but if I understand correctly, we are saying there are people here looking for an open and honest debate and don't seem to be getting it.
Maybe there is a level of expectation with certain subjects on boards that just puts people off (Again, just looking at the potential reasons,. not necessarily saying this is the case).

I suspect you're close to the reason. There are threads that I would like to contribute to but I avoid like the plague because I don't want to be drawn into them. There are many reasons for that avoidance.

Take the threads on Transgender topics. I typically avoid them because they're overly emotional with many posters seeking to "trigger" each other, rather than engage in a reasonable/logical discussion. There's too much judgmental comments about the posters themselves, and why they're voicing their opinions, rather than considering what those opinions entail. I recently posted to a thread where I spoke of my own experience as a bisexual, and talking about my own perception that many people actively seek attention, but often get negative attention as a result. I got accused of victim blaming, and no amount of further discussion was tolerated by the regular posters (who weren't gay/bi themselves).

So, yeah, lack of energy is definitely part of it.

In connection to that is that certain topics require some reading/research. Oh, posters can throw out their opinions, but when those opinions are challenged, they need be supported.. which requires trawling through google to find the supporting info.. and when it's a topic that goes against the status quo (such as domestic violence against men by women), such searches take an extensive amount of time. So, I think many are turned off from discussing topics, because with threads like these with 50+ pages, you know you'll be arguing against people who know the topic pretty damn well.

There's also some laziness with typing/reading involved. Certain topics generate longer responses and more reading.. and while I read/write very fast, I know that many people don't. I tend to write long posts because I type fast (Too many mmo raids, and analysis of student assignments)

Still, we're all here to discuss/argue. It's a discussion board, after all.

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

Most Irish people have never got near a good faith debate on the topic, because our masters fear the outcome.

My parents are both intelligent people (retired teachers), and are generally well read on most topics. Pretty conservative, although very much FG supporters. They'll watch RTE religiously for the news, listen to the radio, browse a few online sites, but don't stretch themselves much.

The thing is they're ignorant of immigration. Oh, they're aware it exists, and they're somewhat critical of the behavior of migrants they've encountered (my mother will relate a story about an African mother of a child pissing on the path inside the school grounds), but in terms of the effects on a macro level, nah. essentially clueless. Plenty of beliefs grounded in emotional or sympathetic reasoning, but little awareness of statistics, economics, etc in relation to the topic. While they're concerned about what's happening with the state of the Health service, the lack of housing, etc, they don't make any connections to the migrants. Migrants, as a group, receive positive praise, but individuals behave poorly.

And I suspect that's what most people in Ireland think of about immigration. Oh, sure, younger people may know more, but I imagine that's tempered by the activist/sjw presence on twitter, facebook or the general media, like CH4/Guardian.

Nope. Honestly, I would guess that few Irish people really know what's going on... and I doubt they care. Yet. The boom times aren't so long gone. When the recession fully hits, I would guess a change in awareness.

Frankie Machine

biko wrote: »

The problem is they are in an echo chamber where they spiral downwards to think everyone in the country thinks like them.
And with no one writing opposing opinion pieces in newspapers or challenging RTE they have no reason to think otherwise.

They are attempting to formulate opinion, not present it.

Twice by email I've challenged academics who have taken advantage of the platform, and in neither case did they have the courtesy to reply.

biko

It's perplexing how some people, although they see the problems caused by immigration in other countries, still are proponents of open borders.

This person is here because they chose to let him in.
https://www.irishpost.com/news/dublin-taxi-driver-sexually-assaulted-three-women-just-fortnight-jailed-five-years-167070
Someone's friends got assaulted because of the choice these people made. The perp is mainly to blame yes, but also the enablers.
They pave the way for future assaults on young women.
Why would anyone choose strangers over friends?