Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

mackerski

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119324880#Comment_119324880

No it wasn't - as late as the 1980s it was a wide single carriageway with no marked hard shoulders at all. The driving lanes were therefore very wide indeed, though parked cars meant an actual lane width along the lines of what we see today.

daymobrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325199#Comment_119325199

Slower cars are quieter. Engine speeds are lower. Emissions are lower. Greater time to react to issues. And more.

Someone mentioned night time driving. For times of low light the 30km/h is even more appropriate to reduce the risk of collisions with deer crossing the road.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325503#Comment_119325503

Ok so I assume there was an awful lot of collisions previously to justify a need to reduce the limit?

And yet we have many junctions and hotspots around the country that should get some attention on safety grounds but we're choosing a flat, straight and well surfaced road with no real history of any accidents... That's odd to me

You'll never convince me that this is actually about safety. Maybe they just don't want cars in the park in which case they should just ban them and deal with the fallout.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325503#Comment_119325503

Is this to protect the deer,

https://www.thejournal.ie/deer-cull-phoenix-park-5591108-Nov2021/#:~:text=THIRTY%2DFOUR%20DEER%20were%20culled,Public%20Works%20(OPW)%20confirmed.

Or drivers.

magicbastarder

Ok so I assume there was an awful lot of collisions previously to justify a need to reduce the limit?

the first three reasons he listed were nothing to do with collisions. maybe it's just a good idea that in a semi-naturalised public park, we ask drivers to drive slowly, because it's not asking much of them?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325618#Comment_119325618

So it's a green agenda then?

In which case it's difficult to really gauge how in the entire country, reducing the limit in this park is going to have any real impact at all.

Still struggling to see what was wrong before that such changes were actually needed.

magicbastarder

So it's a green agenda then?

it's a public park.

magicbastarder

just to satisfy my own curiosity, i checked strava to see how fast a fast cyclist will cycle chesterfield avenue. on the main segment from the first roundabout to the last one (heading towards the city - and this is a slight downhill and more likely to have a tailwind, so is faster than the return), only 5 cyclists have ever gone faster than 50km/h (with a sixth managing precisely 50.0).

693 cyclists have managed 40 or above on that segment.

on the opposite direction, no one has managed 50; the fastest is 46.5km/h, and only 33 people have averaged 40km/h or faster. 12,297 people have recorded a time doing this.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325721#Comment_119325721

Interesting and cool data.

It's down hill towards town. I know on a good day I can spin out in top gear on my slick shod MTB commuter. Never uphill towards Castleknock.

I note the guy who recorded speeds in that article on the cycle site is using some sort of rear light with a radar? Sensor in it. I meant to research it, but didn't have time..

magicbastarder

not sure of the link you mean, but garmin have a product called the varia which acts a rear facing radar, but needs a compatible head GPS unit to talk to.

Flinty997

That's it.

Someone recorded data of drivers not sticking to the new limit. Which is counter to people's anecdotal stories here. Not that it matters. It's just interesting from a stats pov..

hardybuck

I'd be in favour of moving cycle lanes away from the road in Chesterfield Avenue. Putting them next to a road for cars is just bad planning.

We should create a safe space away from the road for the tourists on rental bikes and people coming to the park for recreational cycling (rather than those using the park as a shortcut on their commute).

I've been overtaken on the left hand side by commuter cyclists in the last couple of weeks, both the traditional push bike, the e-bikes and also those on the scooters. They were going over 30k, and undertaking on the inside, which is clearly dangerous.

Hurrache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325013#Comment_119325013

Seems some feel that cycling should be slower than driving, and that speed limits should be adjusted to maintain that.

Hurrache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326500#Comment_119326500

Seriously, have a read back of what you just wrote. You're actually saying and complaining that cyclists use the park as a short cut for their route, and feel that they should be taken away from the road.

Now what proportion of cars using the park do you think are actually only driving to and from the park, and not using it as a main commuting thoroughfare?

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326551#Comment_119326551

There has been an attempt to demonise commuters, and the argument put forward is that the park facilities should be weighted in favour of those coming for recreational purposes.

I'd wager that a significant proportion of cyclists in the park are taking a shortcut on their commute.

magicbastarder

i've never before heard using the park as a 'shortcut on a commute'; people usually would just refer to it as part of their commute?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326504#Comment_119326504

Errrr... That is pretty much as intended by design...

Should we make planes go slower than boats?

hardybuck

Yeah there is definitely a push to get people to go around the park on their commute rather than through it. Google Maps being one example of that.

Green Party candidate saying it here: https://oisinohalmhain.ie/2018/07/17/a-park-for-people-not-a-shortcut-for-cars/

Green Party Councillor saying it here: https://my.uplift.ie/petitions/no-more-traffic-through-phoenix-park

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326500#Comment_119326500

I think there's a case to made that someone at high speed on a bike may not be entirely appropriate in a park filled with pedestrians and kids, and tourists.

That said thats covered by dangerous cycling, and cycling without due care etc. Also we don't have stats if its a significant issue, other than isolated cases.

Same issue with shared spaces, and is covered the same way.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326654#Comment_119326654

They have lost on that particular position, forever. Closing the Park to through-traffic was ruled out completely in the mobility plan, elements of which are currently being piloted.

Two points of note:

First, we were promised a selection of new designated pedestrian crossing points along Chesterfield Avenue and they haven't been delivered. Perhaps two million unsightly plastic wands consumed the budget.

And second, the only fatal road incident within the Park in living memory, was a cyclist hitting a Pedestrian on Chesterfield Avenue.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326500#Comment_119326500

There is no law about going over the speed limit on a bicycle.

eScooters are illegal.

eBikes are only legal if the assisted power cuts off above 25k. You can manually cycle or freewheel above those speeds. (down a hill for example).

If you are going to use the phrase "clearly dangerous" you should have stats to prove your point.

Hurrache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326610#Comment_119326610

There are no design requirements that one should be slower than the other. It's just that they are.

You really think that with the heavy volumes of traffic leading to slow motoring speeds an artificial barrier should be brought in to keep those on bikes slower than those in cars because you think that's how things have been designed?

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326744#Comment_119326744

Janey, so those would potentially have been illegal vehicles commuting in the park? That's even worse.

In terms of clearly dangerous, I'm going by the logic that 30km has been deemed to be the maximum speed which is safe. If there's people going above that it must be dangerous. In terms of stats while I'm sorry that this has to be regularly mentioned, I not aware of a fatality involving a motorist, but there unfortunately has been one involving a cyclist in the recent past. It would appear that cyclists, and the bikes which they use, are capable of higher speeds now.

Hurrache

Seriously lads, it's basic physics. Bike with person @30k/ph does not equate to a car at the same speed for a whole variety of obvious reasons.

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326744#Comment_119326744

But sure there's no laws about anyone needing to stick to 30km in the park, is there?

And sure, if there is going to be speed limits introduced as a safety measure, shouldn't there be stats for that too?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326654#Comment_119326654

Aye, its just a matter of time before they remove through traffic. Its a park, it should be the destination, not a thoroughfare. Wouldn't take much to implement it

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327020#Comment_119327020

While it'd be amazing to have new roads under, over or around the park to make your suggestion viable, I don't think that's a realistic option - not in the short term anyway.

Rather than removing facilities (which seems to be the OPW playbook) I think they should create designated zones for the different users of the the park to make it more inclusive.

I think it would be amazing to have a proper trail for recreational cyclists, and a space for kids learning to cycle safely. Let the commuters have Chesterfield Avenue and one or two others like North Road, Furze Road and Acres Road.

But lobbing in cycle paths next to a road built for cars is just lazy and bad planning.

daymobrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326798#Comment_119326798

Fatalities as a measure whether something is safe is not a good one. Technology in cars distorts such figures anyway. It would be better to look at collisions (though I don't have that data).

The cyclist that died in 2016 was on the off road cycle track and a pedestrian walked in front of him. Cyclist had hi viz on. The pedestrian appears to say that he didn't check before crossing the cycle track. The Gardai had warned OPW that the layout (pedestrians having to cross cycle track) was dangerous. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/cyclist-died-after-colliding-with-pedestrian-on-cycle-path-in-phoenix-park-inquest-hears-36384888.html

daymobrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326863#Comment_119326863

There is a law that prohibits motor vehicles going faster than 30km/h.

It's clear that reducing the speed of motor vehicles will reduce injuries - physics if nothing else. It's better to introduce a safety measure before there is a serious injury or fatality.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327112#Comment_119327112

But lobbing in cycle paths next to a road built for cars is just lazy and bad planning.

There were bicycles going up and down Chesterfield Ave long before cars were even invented