Best Career : Employment rate and Pay

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StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

10k a month is 120k per year - not unheard of in multinationals in loads of types of jobs. The average pay in Facebook Ireland is 154k

True so basically all IT , would say only a few are on 154k
And those jobs would be stressful.

I'm talking about after tax , 120 a year is 5,924 a month big chunk gone from tax.

Im happy with what I have and no stress .

ronivek

CBear1993 wrote: »

Out of interest - are there actually any companies in Ireland, let alone Dublin, that have hours of 10am - 4pm? Serious question.

In my experience 10-4 would be known as your ‘core’ hours where they expect you to be easily reachable to answer questions or hop into impromptu meetings or discussions.

However in many tech jobs you are salaried and the expected output of your working time is project managed and estimated.

For example in one week you may be assigned a piece of work estimated to take 20 hours but the estimate wasn’t accurate and the due date is still Friday; so you end up working 40+ hours to hit your target.

Another week you might be assigned a piece of work estimated at 30 hours but you get it done in 15 and you can spend a few hours catching up on other work and otherwise taking it easy or working on a ‘hobby’ project.

They’re rather simplistic examples but I think you get the idea. Of course it will vary a lot but in general I find the attitude at the best companies is: do the work to the expected standards and in a reasonable time-frame and we couldn’t be bothered if it’s done while you’re sitting naked in a bathtub at home or if it lets you take a few extra hours off this week.

EDIT: And yes; there are plenty of companies in Dublin and Ireland which would take this approach. It would depend to a certain extent on the industry you're doing your tech work in:

• Banks and other financial institutions may expect the usual 9-5 office presence in some teams.
• Contract positions (especially at the lower end of pay) can be fairly rigid and require you to be in the office consistently for all your hours.
• Companies whose tech workers are a smaller proportion of total staff tend to be less flexible.
• More modern more tech focused companies will generally offer more flexibility as part of the overall package to attract talent; but these roles will be more difficult to land on average.

JimmyVik

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, I'm hoping to have enough in the pension pot to take the foot off the peddle work wise at 50. I don't intend retiring as such just not staying on the road I'm on

Agreed.

My idea of retirement is to be in a position to do whatever i like myself.
It means not worrying about making a living.
I could work or travel or not, depending on what I feel like doing that week.
No more giving a damn whether im bringing in a salary or not.
No more HAVING to be somewhere I dont want to be to earn money.

krissovo

CBear1993 wrote: »

What’s the craic with all the stocks and bonuses people mention in tech firms? Seems to bump the base salary way up. Do you physically have this stock money at any time you please or is it like a pension , can only be withdrawn on request?

Do you get paid overtime? Only if you’re a contractor I’m guessing.

Why is there no fear of contracting in IT? I see lots of folks on here at it, making a killing, and don’t seem to be bothered about fragile job security or benefits. Is it because it’s so normal and they’ll find work right away somewhere else?

Stocks and bonuses - Stocks are used as what I call "Golden Handcuffs" are actually normally restricted stock (RSU's) that mature over 3/4 years of employment. Last month I was granted $50k in RSU's, every 12 months as long as I am still employed by my employer 25% of that stock will vest and become real that I can keep or sell. Its a method of retaining "talent" and also a way of getting a bonus without paying the max tax. The stock is subject to capital gains tax which is lower than income tax. The other benefit to the company is that the employees want the company to perform well so the stock price increases.

Overtime - In my company once you hit senior management there is no overtime and we have 32 hour working week contracts. The reality is that we exceed those hours regularly but in a quiet week I may only work for 3 or 4 hours so it's swings and roundabouts and in my case I think it balances out over the year.

IT contractors - If you have in demand skills and a strong portfolio there is no fear even if you are a complete asshat of sourcing a contract. There is a huge shortage of skilled IT resources globally so that is why there is little fear for an IT contractor to find their next contract.

krissovo

krissovo wrote: »

Stocks and bonuses - Stocks are used as what I call "Golden Handcuffs" are actually normally restricted stock (RSU's) that mature over 3/4 years of employment. Last month I was granted $50k in RSU's, every 12 months as long as I am still employed by my employer 25% of that stock will vest and become real that I can keep or sell. Its a method of retaining "talent" and also a way of getting a bonus without paying the max tax. The stock is subject to capital gains tax which is lower than income tax. The other benefit to the company is that the employees want the company to perform well so the stock price increases.

Overtime - In my company once you hit senior management there is no overtime and we have 32 hour working week contracts. The reality is that we exceed those hours regularly but in a quiet week I may only work for 3 or 4 hours so it's swings and roundabouts and in my case I think it balances out over the year.

IT contractors - If you have in demand skills and a strong portfolio there is no fear even if you are a complete asshat of sourcing a contract. There is a huge shortage of skilled IT resources globally so that is why there is little fear for an IT contractor to find their next contract.

If you are in Ireland, RSUs are subject to Income Tax, PRSI and USC when they vest, like any other form of pay.

Any gain between when they vest and you sell is subject to CGT.

Timistry

Work in a MNC . Work hours are 39hrs per week but its routinely 42-45 hrs per week. There is literally no end to the work to be done. Pay is good, but not TOIL or overtime. Good holidays but really no time to take them; I carried over a week from last year.... Have had many jobs less well paid but money is not everything. At least in those jobs, I left work and went home, not worried about that could happpen when I was not here and stressing about it.

fair play to those doing so well.

Jim2007

CBear1993 wrote: »

Out of interest - are there actually any companies in Ireland, let alone Dublin, that have hours of 10am - 4pm? Serious question.

That really sounds more like core hours rather than anything else...

That aside, I say the number of companies in... let’s call it the English speaking world that truly respect the work - life balance are few and far apart. Oh they do a lot of talking about it, but you only have to look at the provisions relating overtime to know what is the expectation.

The last Swiss employment contract I had (about 15 years ago) specifically prohibited me from working overtime without the written permission of my MD. Indeed regularly having to work overtime or needing to have members of your team do overtime was considered an indication of incompetence.

CBear1993

Jim2007 wrote: »

That really sounds more like core hours rather than anything else...

That aside, I say the number of companies in... let’s call it the English speaking world that truly respect the work - life balance are few and far apart. Oh they do a lot of talking about it, but you only have to look at the provisions relating overtime to know what is the expectation.

The last Swiss employment contract I had (about 15 years ago) specifically prohibited me from working overtime without the written permission of my MD. Indeed regularly having to work overtime or needing to have members of your team do overtime was considered an indication of incompetence.

That’s interesting Jim. Would you say in Europe then overall they tend not to work overtime? (Obviously can’t tar the whole continent with the same brush)
America is worse off than here in regards to working hours and holidays!

I spent several months working in Austria & Germany on behalf of Irish based MNCs. Overtime was not a concept they believed in..... They'd mismanage the project and nonchalantly report everything is late and delivery is now at risk.

There's work life balance and there's taking the p1ss

jester77

CBear1993 wrote: »

That’s interesting Jim. Would you say in Europe then overall they tend not to work overtime? (Obviously can’t tar the whole continent with the same brush)
America is worse off than here in regards to working hours and holidays!

No overtime where I work in Germany, you might do an extra hour or 2 every now and again if something was urgent, can't remember the last time I would have done that.

Working over time is regarded as bad planning and reflects badly on whoever is managing. It's not really something that happens where I am.

In one of my former companies the betriebsrat (workers council) forbid it. It was the only company I have ever worked for where you had to clock in and out, they had a secure building where you had to go through multiple doors and had weight sensors on the floor so that multiple people couldn't get in at the same time. You wouldn't be allowed access to the office if you had worked up too many extra hours.

Internet Police

Dole.

Noah G

With how everything is at the moment , what is everyone's thoughts on what jobs / careers will be safe now and In the future ,

I'm thinking of going to do an apprenticeship but with how things are will trades be safe enough or just the likes garda, teacher's.

Iv seen alot of people are in IT jobs with a good salary, I might be interested in going back to college part time and try get a job In software engineering.

Is there any short courses I can do to get my foot in the door ? Then carry on working while learning moving up the ladder ?

Lumen

Noah G wrote: »

With how everything is at the moment , what is everyone's thoughts on what jobs / careers will be safe now and In the future ,

I'm thinking of going to do an apprenticeship but with how things are will trades be safe enough or just the likes garda, teacher's.

Iv seen alot of people are in IT jobs with a good salary, I might be interested in going back to college part time and try get a job In software engineering.

Is there any short courses I can do to get my foot in the door ? Then carry on working while learning moving up the ladder ?

Success in IT depends a lot on aptitude. Why do you think you would make a good software engineer?

CBear1993

Like Lumen has said above, Noah - I get sucked into the same hole as you a lot - a lot of jobs sound great cos they pay well etc, but what guarantee is there you'll even enjoy it? You need to find out some way before you throw yourself into a course or career path committing to it.

Maybe youtube, an online free intro course in software eng, or speak to someone in that career about the day to day (on the phone or in person, only so much of a picture you can paint with words on a screen)

You will be happiest in the one that you are half decent at, and "enjoy". I say enjoy but mean something you don't hate, and it's not bad going to work every day for the next xyz number of years. The software eng could make you a fortune but could also make you miserable which is way worse IMHO.

If you are better suited to trades, and have a knack for manual work or craft, you will not be sitting at a desk or staring at a screen all day like in a lot of today's jobs.

online personality tests and career matcher tests through sites like careers portal.ie can be helpful, but some I wouldn't pay too much attention to.

Jim2007

Lumen wrote: »

Success in IT depends a lot on aptitude. Why do you think you would make a good software engineer?

It helps, but very much depends on having the right technical skills that are in demand and that often means learn some new technologies in their early stages in the hope that it will pan out and doing that at least three time over a career. Otherwise it could turn out to be pretty pedestrian and even a struggle to hold on to a job in later life, if the technology does not need support and maintenance.

If you were a C or C++ programmer in the 90s rather than a Cobol programmer, bad luck... the demand for Cobol programmers and the rates paid are much more attractive.

Lumen

Jim2007 wrote: »

It helps, but very much depends on having the right technical skills that are in demand ....

Sorry, I should have said "aptitude is necessary but insufficient".

TBH my rather snobby gut reaction to the question "should I be a computer programmer?" is "if you're not already, then no". I started about age 10, took about six months off at 21 and have been doing it professionally ever since.

Until about the age of 30 it was the centre of my life, now (many years later) family and hobbies fill those gaps and I only think about computing during work, and only work maybe 45 hours a week.

OTOH I studied Comp Sci at university but I'm guessing that only maybe a quarter of my class are still at it in any meaningful way.

Writing code is only part of the software industry so there are lots of other jobs you can do around software that don't require engineering skills, and a software engineering degree (even just a masters) would be useful for those.

Most professional software engineers are crap. Of 50 CVs I get maybe 80%+ go in the round folder and after rigourous assessment of the remaining candidates I'm left with maybe 2 or 3 that seem plausibly capable. God knows what those other people end up doing.

dazberry

Lumen wrote: »

Most professional software engineers are crap. Of 50 CVs I get maybe 80%+ go in the round folder and after rigourous assessment of the remaining candidates I'm left with maybe 2 or 3 that seem plausibly capable. God knows what those other people end up doing.

There's also a lot of crap development jobs out there too, so I'm sure we all find our own level

JimmyVik

Noah G wrote: »

With how everything is at the moment , what is everyone's thoughts on what jobs / careers will be safe now and In the future ,

I'm thinking of going to do an apprenticeship but with how things are will trades be safe enough or just the likes garda, teacher's.

Iv seen alot of people are in IT jobs with a good salary, I might be interested in going back to college part time and try get a job In software engineering.

Is there any short courses I can do to get my foot in the door ? Then carry on working while learning moving up the ladder ?

Ive been developing software since primary school.Went to Uni and made a career out of it.
Im very good at it and in demand, so you would think I love it now.

The truth is that I used to love it but its totally lost its shine over the last 10 years or so.
What you have now is pure red tape everywhere. Its miserable. All politics now.

Also, there isnt one software engineer who thinks that he is not better than all the other guys. Its such a bitchy profession you wouldnt believe it. Full of people dissing other peoples skills and work. They will never miss an opportunity to say how bad most developers are. Double meaning being that it is just self praise. You wouldnt believe how prevalent that is. Its like mean girls Then you'll have 3 or 4 of them gang up and back each other up too, just like mean girls. You would have to be working in it to believe it.



Then when you move into management its even worse.
I moved into management and tried to keep my hand in development but its not easy. The fun has gone out of it. Most of the fun in it now is doing my own projects and teaching kids how to develop software and solve problems.


You can have my job if you want it Im just tired of it at this stage.

Lumen

JimmyVik wrote: »

Also, there isnt one software engineer who thinks that he is not better than all the other guys.

That is an exaggeration if not outright untruth. I see your management skills are developing nicely.

The best software engineers I've worked with (all better than me) have been incredibly modest.

JimmyVik

Lumen wrote: »

That is an exaggeration if not outright untruth. I see your management skills are developing nicely.

The best software engineers I've worked with (all better than me) have been incredibly modest.

But you are better than most other software engineers you've ever met right?

dazberry

JimmyVik wrote: »

The truth is that I used to love it but its totally lost its shine over the last 10 years or so.
What you have now is pure red tape everywhere. Its miserable. All politics now.

+1. Really lost it's shine for me now too. Last job was a startup, we had such fun I sort of felt rejuvenated - until they ran out of money - now I'm in an American MN and it's horrible.

Also, there isnt one software engineer who thinks that he is not better than all the other guys. Its such a bitchy profession you wouldnt believe it. Full of people dissing other peoples skills and work. They will never miss an opportunity to say how bad most developers are. Double meaning being that it is just self praise. You wouldnt believe how prevalent that is. Its like mean girls Then you'll have 3 or 4 of them gang up and back each other up too, just like mean girls. You would have to be working in it to believe it.

This is pretty true. Not everyone but for all the talk of it being a collaborative process there are a lot of people that collaboration is about them getting their own way. It's one of the things I always try to get out of engineers when I'm interviewing them.

jester77

It's a career where you never stop learning, if you do you are obsolete. And when I say stop learning, you will have to be keeping up with trends, technologies, language updates, API updates, platform updates, etc on a constant basis. It's not a job that you do 9 -5 and you are done. If you don't like reading blogs, going to conferences/meetups, watching presentations, playing with new stuff, etc in your spare time, then you will struggle.

JimmyVik

dazberry wrote: »

+1. Really lost it's shine for me now too. Last job was a startup, we had such fun I sort of felt rejuvenated - until they ran out of money - now I'm in an American MN and it's horrible.

This is pretty true. Not everyone but for all the talk of it being a collaborative process there are a lot of people that collaboration is about them getting their own way. It's one of the things I always try to get out of engineers when I'm interviewing them.

My best jobs ever were startups. Loved them.
Problem was either they burn out or they dont remain startup culture.
But if I was to move now I would definitely go for a startup.

HerrKuehn

One thing I notice in a lot of these discussions is the focus on being a C++ programmer, java programmer etc. I mean, the languages, frameworks and APIs are important, but they are just tools. At the end of they day we are using them to build things and solve problems. For me the problem has always been the focus. I think you need to love the domain you work in too. I'm quite sure that the very specific domain knowledge I have accounts for more than half of what I am paid.

JimmyVik

HerrKuehn wrote: »

One thing I notice in a lot of these discussions is the focus on being a C++ programmer, java programmer etc. I mean, the languages, frameworks and APIs are important, but they are just tools. At the end of they day we are using them to build things and solve problems. For me the problem has always been the focus. I think you need to love the domain you work in too. I'm quite sure that the very specific domain knowledge I have accounts for more than half of what I am paid.

Thats a very good point.
I think there seems to be a ceiling of about €140k in MNCs whether development or IT management. At least there seems to be in my company. But they work us hard for it. And I stayed for the salary and bonuses for far too long now.

With specific domain knowledge as you say the sky is the limit if you go contracting.
Must be getting old I think IT is a young persons game. Once you have a life and family, either you go into management and bluff your way through after that, which is what most of my peers do, or you start to take advantage of the companys talk on work/life balance (which you find they dont really mean when you do start to put likfe before work )



My next step will probably be a last hoorrah of contracting in startups for a couple of years. Then im out. I had my mind made up to emigrate and go contracting for the change just before COVID, so havent done anything about it yet. I just dont have the patience for the bureaucracy anymore.



Ive a friend who seems to have it cracked though. For about 15 years now he has been contracting for 6 months and then going off to Thailand and living it up like a prince for 6 months. Then repeat. The lifestyle suits him. If I had no family I would probably have done that.


Anyway. I digress at this hour of the morning.
Just saying IT is not what people think it is at all. So switching into it is not as easy as it sounds.

HerrKuehn

I think people need to be realistic in terms of expected salary as well. It is all well and good thinking you can do a 2 year conversion masters and then you are on a fast track to 100k. That won't happen. There are exceptions of course, maybe someone had a lot of previous valuable experience or whatever.

When you finish college it is really the beginning of a very long road. In my opinion all developers are self taught. Most of what you need to learn to be a good developer will be done alone, at home, after work or on the weekends. Especially when you just start you need to read voraciously. Not everyone will do this and they will find their level. It is much easier to do this when you are young and don't have kids. I think this is probably the biggest obstacle for someone moving into IT in their 30's. That isn't to say that they won't have a decent salary, but it will not be the kind of headline salaries that people talk about.

I came into development through a more traditional route, Computer Science, then scientific research and finally into industry. It took me 9 years to get to the point where I was working on the type of problems I wanted to work on! I have been in the industry ~20 years now and I still love it. I always had a rule, that if I felt I was not learning in a company anymore, I needed to leave. You often hear is said that there is a difference between 5 years experience and 5x1 year experience. This is true.

In saying all that, I would encourage anyone interested to give it a try, but have realistic expectations. If you are focused only on the end goal of a high salary, you will probably never get there. You need to enjoy the process too.

schmoo2k

Jim2007 wrote: »

It helps, but very much depends on having the right technical skills that are in demand and that often means learn some new technologies in their early stages in the hope that it will pan out and doing that at least three time over a career. Otherwise it could turn out to be pretty pedestrian and even a struggle to hold on to a job in later life, if the technology does not need support and maintenance.

If you were a C or C++ programmer in the 90s rather than a Cobol programmer, bad luck... the demand for Cobol programmers and the rates paid are much more attractive.

Some tips I give to new developers:
* Don't get religious about the first language you learn (learn many languages)
* After time you will see patterns in the problems you want to solve and you will have a choice of tech / languages to solve it with.
* Most important thing is good encapsulation - with good encapsulation you can replace bad code easily.
* Don't get tricked into learning a framework over the core language or not understanding what the build tools are actually doing.

schmoo2k

JimmyVik wrote: »

Ive been developing software since primary school.Went to Uni and made a career out of it.
Im very good at it and in demand, so you would think I love it now.

The truth is that I used to love it but its totally lost its shine over the last 10 years or so.
What you have now is pure red tape everywhere. Its miserable. All politics now.

Also, there isnt one software engineer who thinks that he is not better than all the other guys. Its such a bitchy profession you wouldnt believe it. Full of people dissing other peoples skills and work. They will never miss an opportunity to say how bad most developers are. Double meaning being that it is just self praise. You wouldnt believe how prevalent that is. Its like mean girls Then you'll have 3 or 4 of them gang up and back each other up too, just like mean girls. You would have to be working in it to believe it.



Then when you move into management its even worse.
I moved into management and tried to keep my hand in development but its not easy. The fun has gone out of it. Most of the fun in it now is doing my own projects and teaching kids how to develop software and solve problems.


You can have my job if you want it Im just tired of it at this stage.

This really is a thing, but its not always the case - I remember getting transplanted from a UK company into US based one, initially everyone in the US office would not help others or even share code snippets and would obfuscate clever things so others couldn't "steal" them - bizarre (all pre open source world), it did change after a while...

flipflophead22

Cyber security seems to only be geting bigger, anyone working in this area?

MrMistoffelees

nibtrix wrote: »

I've seen this opinion posted a few times. People realise that most lecturers don't just give a couple of lectures a week and do nothing else, right? Most of them also do research and publish articles/books, which isn't exactly a walk in the park. Particularly if you are new in the profession, it can be hard to get into a good position, many people are on year-to-year contracts with no guarantee they'll be kept on.

Of course once you're years established, well-known, with plenty of work published, then you can sit back in a permanent job and rehash the same lectures to new students year after year. Takes a fair whack of work to get to that point though!

Can’t ever sit back really - need to supervise PhD students, participate in professional bodies internationally, continuously publish new research. In UCD academic staff get 20 days AL (excluding Christmas holidays) , not whole summer off.