How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow

BloodyBill wrote: »

The only two guys that complain about anti Irish abuse in Britain are from Derry. The footballers McLean and Duffy. Its all abit odd.

Yeah it’s very interesting. To the best of my knowledge 100% of the ni nationalists who have declared to play for Roi come from derry. What’s that about?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So the IRA were British. Gerry Adams is British. Martin McGuinness
was British.

Those born in the north were born british but I guess most took up their offer to declare as Irish. Still british though.

downcow

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Glad the penny finally dropped for you.

If you agreeing with me, is the penny dropping for me, then fair enough. Whatever works for you.

It’s a bit like the ira claiming they did not surrender when they supported the gfa and took up their british seats in Stormont

Baggly

Mod

downcow, you are done in this thread. Dont post here again.

Hamsterchops

bobbysands81 wrote: »

It’s precisely that attitude towards “Irishness” that will actually speed up a United Ireland.

As a matter of interest, who gains and who loses out in the event of a "United" Ireland?

Who are the winners and who are the losers?

I guess GB is the real winner, with not having to maintain NI as part of the UK anymore, but what of NI themselves, would they be winners or losers after leaving the UK?

And what of us here in the South? Obviously we'd be in some kind of United Ireland heaven of for a short spell ... then the reality would set in, and I guess we'd have some king of massive hangover as it slowly dawn's on us that the reality may not be the same as the pipe dream

RobMc59

Hamsterchops wrote: »

As a matter of interest, who gains and who loses out in the event of a "United" Ireland?

Who are the winners and who are the losers?

I guess GB is the real winner, with not having to maintain NI as part of the UK anymore, but what of NI themselves, would they be winners or losers after leaving the UK?

And what of us here in the South? Obviously we'd be in some kind of United Ireland heaven of for a short spell ... then the reality would set in, and I guess we'd have some king of massive hangover as it slowly dawn's on us that the reality may not be the same as the pipe dream

It also depends on who has to pay for a UI which would be expensive I imagine.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

It also depends on who has to pay for a UI which would be expensive I imagine.

Save your lot a fortune though. Few big red buses be floating about with the savings written on the side soon enough, Christ knows you could do with it the way things have been going.

Hamsterchops

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

downcow, you are done in this thread. Dont post here again.

Apart from being a Northern Ireland Unionist of the moderate variety, what has Downcow done to deserve being banned from this thread?

BonnieSituation

Hamsterchops wrote: »

As a matter of interest, who gains and who loses out in the event of a "United" Ireland?

Who are the winners and who are the losers?

I guess GB is the real winner, with not having to maintain NI as part of the UK anymore, but what of NI themselves, would they be winners or losers after leaving the UK?

And what of us here in the South? Obviously we'd be in some kind of United Ireland heaven of for a short spell ... then the reality would set in, and I guess we'd have some king of massive hangover as it slowly dawn's on us that the reality may not be the same as the pipe dream

More wishy washy commentary. You have repeated this ad nauseam. We get it.

----
In other news of the wishy washy variety; Mícheal Martin showing off his innate political ability and his republican credentials again:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/taoiseach-pushes-back-against-calls-in-us-for-referendum-on-irish-unity-1.4511044?mode=amp

I thought the reference to Séamus Mallon was particularly apt, as if to infer that nationalists are to blame for partition and any violence before or since.

RobMc59

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Apart from being a Northern Ireland Unionist of the moderate variety, what has Downcow done to deserve being banned from this thread?

It would be a shame if this thread becomes just another echo chamber inhabited by hive minded posters.
Healthy debate and discussion with different points of view is good for all concerned I`d say.

How come Francie isn't posting these days?

ulster

jh79 wrote: »

How come Francie isn't posting these days?

Maybe he got fed up of the incessant trolling in this thread.

Brendan Bendar

jh79 wrote: »

How come Francie isn't posting these days?

Francie who?

Brendan Bendar

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Francie who?

Francie Brady, hasn't posted in any of the usual threads in a while.

Brendan Bendar

jh79 wrote: »

Francie Brady, hasn't posted in any of the usual threads in a while.

Aah....poor Francie.... yes, hope the lad is Ok.

Prolific poster on ..well... Border Issues.

He’ll be back I’m sure.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

Those born in the north were born british but I guess most took up their offer to declare as Irish. Still british though.

i bet you would have called people born in India british too back in the day. remember that place where the british decimated and stole the linen trade from the 1830s on?

then again, 'british' is only a word. doesnt actually mean anything.

RobMc59

maccored wrote: »

i bet you would have called people born in India british too back in the day. remember that place where the british decimated and stole the linen trade from the 1830s on?

then again, 'british' is only a word. doesnt actually mean anything.

I`ve read this post a couple of times and still can`t work out what it has to do with Irish reunification,can you help me out here maccored?

Baggly

Mod

After discussion with the user via PM, downcow's threadban is lifted.

Fionn1952

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

After discussion with the user via PM, downcow's threadban is lifted.

Welcome back, Downcow. Despite our constant disagreements, I'd find the thread fierce boring without you to argue with.

A testament to solid moderation when these things can be resolved and we can move on.

lurleen lumpkin

Back to circular arguments and IRA whataboutery every 5 minutes then. What does he get out of trolling this thread relentlessly? He took the time to beg to get back in just so he can furnish us with his on this day the IRA nuggets and advise us on how British we are.

Baggly

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Back to circular arguments and IRA whataboutery every 5 minutes then. What does he get out of trolling this thread relentlessly? He took the time to beg to get back in just so he can furnish us with his on this day the IRA nuggets and advise us on how British we are.

Mod

Dont post in this thread again.

Moderation is not up for discussion in this thread, folks. I can card and ban people all day if needs be.

Fionn1952

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Back to circular arguments and IRA whataboutery every 5 minutes then. What does he get out of trolling this thread relentlessly? He took the time to beg to get back in just so he can furnish us with his on this day the IRA nuggets and advise us on how British we are.

Differing opinions (be they occasionally ridiculous or not) certainly leads to a better standard of conversation than a circle jerk of people vehemently agreeing with eachother and patting eachother on the back.

Myself and Downcow probably disagree on >95% of topics we discuss to some extent, but whether he convinces me on his position or not, there is value to hearing the impact on opinions of being brought up with different views and a different life experience. It helps one analyse one's own biases, and I even occasionally learn something I didn't know also.

The other side.....well there's a bit of the masochistic in me that finds the occasionally traded barbs quite fun when we manage to stay on the right side of the rules (even if sailing a little close sometimes).

Fundamentally without dissenting voices, the thread would be pointless and would've died out long ago.

Baggly

Id suggest we get back to discussing the topic at hand folks

downcow

I had said the DUP would not be forgiven easily for the Irish Sea border. Here is the first real damning evidence.
Scary stuff for them but ni will be a better more secure place with them seriously diminished
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/leaked-internal-dup-minutes-show-fear-of-looming-electoral-collapse-and-dismay-at-partys-direction-3166885?fbclid=IwAR0z9-xQgOZngcsFUmYsEWtiSPM-tvTIfXfIMD8Y8qNKcNu1faETbRlM_Uo
I am disappointed the uup are not really benefiting, but unfortunately they have also been tinged with some of the blame .

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I had said the DUP would not be forgiven easily for the Irish Sea border. Here is the first real damning evidence.
Scary stuff for them but ni will be a better more secure place with them seriously diminished
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/leaked-internal-dup-minutes-show-fear-of-looming-electoral-collapse-and-dismay-at-partys-direction-3166885?fbclid=IwAR0z9-xQgOZngcsFUmYsEWtiSPM-tvTIfXfIMD8Y8qNKcNu1faETbRlM_Uo
I am disappointed the uup are not really benefiting, but unfortunately they have also been tinged with some of the blame .

The issue is that the UUP offer nothing of note. There are essentially two responses to the DUP's absolute clusterf*ck; one can consider their support of Brexit to be too hardline and gravitate towards Alliance, or hark back to, 'NEVER, NEVER, NEVER' and gravitate towards Jim Allister and his TUV. It isn't so much that the UUP are tinged with blame that they are trying to be all things to all men and convincing no one, as has been their problem since the DUP started making gains on them; always chasing the hardliners they were losing to the DUP while trying not to alienate the middle class vote who hated them.

The transfers to Alliance would strike me as more likely to be long term gains. The transfers to TUV might drift back to the DUP if and when all their bluster amounts to nothing.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The issue is that the UUP offer nothing of note. There are essentially two responses to the DUP's absolute clusterf*ck; one can consider their support of Brexit to be too hardline and gravitate towards Alliance, or hark back to, 'NEVER, NEVER, NEVER' and gravitate towards Jim Allister and his TUV. It isn't so much that the UUP are tinged with blame that they are trying to be all things to all men and convincing no one, as has been their problem since the DUP started making gains on them; always chasing the hardliners they were losing to the DUP while trying not to alienate the middle class vote who hated them.

The transfers to Alliance would strike me as more likely to be long term gains. The transfers to TUV might drift back to the DUP if and when all their bluster amounts to nothing.

The uup put country and peace before party 20 years ago and are still paying a heavy price.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

The uup put country and peace before party 20 years ago and are still paying a heavy price.

While I won't take away from the work the UUP and SDLP did regarding the GFA, their identity right now is what is in question. With a patient strategy led by someone like Mike Nesbitt could well have been picking up those transfers breaking to Alliance by those who do strongly support the continued membership of the United Kingdom. Instead they've spent the majority of the last 20 years trying to run with the fox and hunt with the hounds; trying to appear moderate until the DUP make any gains at all and then pivoting to a comparable position to try hold onto those voters....managing to simultaneously alienate their actual moderate voters and not even manage to attract the transfers to DUP back.

What do the UUP actually offer that wouldn't be better served by Alliance to the moderate or DUP/TUV to the hardline?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

While I won't take away from the work the UUP and SDLP did regarding the GFA, their identity right now is what is in question. With a patient strategy led by someone like Mike Nesbitt could well have been picking up those transfers breaking to Alliance by those who do strongly support the continued membership of the United Kingdom. Instead they've spent the majority of the last 20 years trying to run with the fox and hunt with the hounds; trying to appear moderate until the DUP make any gains at all and then pivoting to a comparable position to try hold onto those voters....managing to simultaneously alienate their actual moderate voters and not even manage to attract the transfers to DUP back.

What do the UUP actually offer that wouldn't be better served by Alliance to the moderate or DUP/TUV to the hardline?

I agree with a fair bit of your post. And the uup are in an unenviable position squeezed between the parties you mention.
There is though no party there that I could vote for currently. If you removed uup from the election, unfortunately the party I would vote for is TUV. I can’t abide some of what they stand for and their exclusiveness. And they have nearly as much arrogance as the alliance, DUP and SF.
I can’t see me ever voting dup again and I certainly won’t be voting for the alliance party as I treasure diversity too much.
It is a shame that NI21 imploded. I feel they were offering something new and fresh in ni - truly inclusive and diverse which doesn’t currently exist although uup are closest in my view

Much as I detest the attempted neutrality and ‘all things to all people’ approach of alliance, I do recognise that their voters and MLAs are at least 75% unionist. That is healthy for the union and ironically I don’t think it would benificial to the union to see the Alliance unionists whittled away to the uup making the alliance party mainly nationalist. It’s good that the vast majority of the middle ground wants to maintain the union and we need to be careful not to destabilise that

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I agree with a fair bit of your post. And the uup are in an unenviable position squeezed between the parties you mention.
There is though no party there that I could vote for currently. If you removed uup from the election, unfortunately the party I would vote for is TUV. I can’t abide some of what they stand for and their exclusiveness. And they have nearly as much arrogance as the alliance, DUP and SF.
I can’t see me ever voting dup again and I certainly won’t be voting for the alliance party as I treasure diversity too much.
It is a shame that NI21 imploded. I feel they were offering something new and fresh in ni - truly inclusive and diverse which doesn’t currently exist although uup are closest in my view

Much as I detest the attempted neutrality and ‘all things to all people’ approach of alliance, I do recognise that their voters and MLAs are at least 75% unionist. That is healthy for the union and ironically I don’t think it would benificial to the union to see the Alliance unionists whittled away to the uup making the alliance party mainly nationalist. It’s good that the vast majority of the middle ground wants to maintain the union and we need to be careful not to destabilise that

Funny enough, despite TUV's much stronger stance on the Union, I'd see them as much more detrimental to it's sustained future. Given his way, Jim Allister would have us right back to, 'a Protestant state for Protestant people'. The continuation of NI as part of the UK isn't dependent on hardline, 'the DUP are too soft on those uppity Fenians' type voters, there just aren't enough of them to sustain a majority. It is dependent on moderate/soft Unionists, who largely don't make Nationalists feel unwelcome/disrespected.

I'm confident that a stint with Jim Allister and TUV as the primary Unionist party would rapidly accelerate any moves towards Unification in a way no other party in the North could manage.

Happy St Patrick’s Day by the way, Downcow.

mehico

In the short term TUV will gain support from DUP but will this translate into seats at the next election? Too far away to predict probably.