Need some advice on my son

cannotlogin

I think your 100% right OP.

I refuse to hire graduates now who haven't had a part time job in school or college, reason being a lot of them who haven't struggle badly in the workplace. Can't follow instructions, or won't, not able to make phone calls, or communicate face to face, strong preference for email, struggle to interact with customers and colleagues, can't take ownership or responsibility etc.

A part time job for teenagers is a great idea. This is also close to home, with someone he knows and is only 2 days a week, it's a great way to get him started.

Lefty Bicek

GarIT wrote: »

I haven't researched it heavily, but I haven't come across any that come to that conclusion exactly. The balance is heavily in favour of not working until eduction is finished. Except for summer internships in valuable indiustries.

This thread is about a summer job for a teenager. Conflating that issue, with educational and career outcomes for third-level students who have to work because mummy and daddy couldn't afford to pay them an allowance... is nonsense.

Anyway, do you comprehend that for a lot of people, it is not possible to complete education without working to sustain themselves ? Simply not possible. Seriously, do you not know that ?

Better for them to get a taste of work before they have to.

Do you comprehend that not everyone is interested in going to college anyway ? Some people just aren't cut out for it, or are not interested in it.

Better for them to get a taste of work before they have to.

Many of them will go on to make a decent living, doing practical skilled work they can be proud of. And which nerdy Little Little Lord Fauntleroy's, in their 'summer internships in valuable industries' need, just the same as everyone else.

GarIT

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

This thread is about a summer job for a teenager. Conflating that issue, with educational and career outcomes for third-level students who have to work because mummy and daddy couldn't afford to pay them an allowance... is nonsense.

Anyway, do you comprehend that for a lot of people, it is not possible to complete education without working to sustain themselves ? Simply not possible. Seriously, do you not know that ?

Better for them to get a taste of work before they have to.

Do you comprehend that not everyone is interested in going to college anyway ? Some people just aren't cut out for it, or are not interested in it.

Better for them to get a taste of work before they have to.

Many of them will go on to make a decent living, doing practical skilled work they can be proud of. And which nerdy Little Little Lord Fauntleroy's, in their 'summer internships in valuable industries' need, just the same as everyone else.

You're making a lot of nonsense assumptions there. Nowhere did I specify college education only.

I obviously understand not everyone can support their kids through college, I just said if they can, on average it leads to better educational and employment outcomes.

After you going on about keeping it to about this specific case you go on about sustaining themselves. He is 14, his parents have a legal requirement to sustain him until 18. He isn't going out to put food on the table he is wasting a third of his summer working for peanuts.

And I do comprehend not everyone wants to go college. I considered the benefits of a trade, or starting my own PC repair company. But decided against it and went to college. I'm not saying everyone has to make the same decisions as me. This kid doesn't want this job so I'm not sure how wanting or not wanting to go to college in the future is relevant. He has to be forced into working longer hours than allowed for less than minimum wage now in case he doesn't want to go to college later?

Lefty Bicek

GarIT wrote: »

He is 14, his parents have a legal requirement to sustain him until 18.

They also have to prepare him for the world. Which means the discipline of employment, for most.

You've already been told that employers see value in that experience.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113593215&postcount=213

You know he's fourteen, yet you still believe adulthood is ten years away for him. This is where you may be confused.

...he is wasting a third of his summer working for peanuts.

How would you know that ?

I did it, and a lot of my friends did it. We had a great time. Wasn't a waste of anything. It was valuable in it's own right, and prepared me for what I needed to do to get through uni ten years later.

And I do comprehend not everyone wants to go college. I considered the benefits of a trade

You didn't really though, did you ?

I do have an aversion to physical work,

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113574353&postcount=90


Apart from which, you told us a lot here -

The majority of people my age I know didn't start working until after college.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113576976&postcount=172

This kid doesn't want this job...

This 'kid' needs to learn that there is only one boss in any establishment, and it isn't him.

He has to be forced into working longer hours than allowed for less than minimum wage now in case he doesn't want to go to college later?

Why invent such convolutions ?

I'm certain that people reading my posts objectively would see that my point is that a taste of the disciplines of employment stand to anyone in their adult years whether they find themselves at work, college, or combining both.

Emotively, you say 'forced', others more sensibly say 'parented'.

He's not Oliver Twist, he'll be fine.

And whether he becomes a plumber or a quantum physicist, the experience of employment - and it is not onerous - will stand to him.

There is more to being a successful individual than 'good grades'.

GarIT

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

They also have to prepare him for the world. Which means the discipline of employment, for most.

You've already been told that employers see value in that experience.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113593215&postcount=213

You know he's fourteen, yet you still believe adulthood is ten years away for him. This is where you may be confused.



How would you know that ?

I did it, and a lot of my friends did it. We had a great time. Wasn't a waste of anything. It was valuable in it's own right, and prepared me for what I needed to do to get through uni ten years later.



You didn't really though, did you ?



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113574353&postcount=90


Apart from which, you told us a lot here -



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113576976&postcount=172



This 'kid' needs to learn that there is only one boss in any establishment, and it isn't him.



Why invent such convolutions ?

I'm certain that people reading my posts objectively would see that my point is that a taste of the disciplines of employment stand to anyone in their adult years whether they find themselves at work, college, or combining both.

Emotively, you say 'forced', others more sensibly say 'parented'.

He's not Oliver Twist, he'll be fine.

And whether he becomes a plumber or a quantum physicist, the experience of employment - and it is not onerous - will stand to him.

There is more to being a successful individual than 'good grades'.

And I'm an employer who doesn't value that experience. Completely disagree with the poster you referenced. We provide phones but as staff to stick to email as much as possible for a clear written record.

I know he's working for peanuts because the OP said so. He is getting almost 30% less than minimum wage.

I did consider a trade. I considered working as an electrician, liked the idea of setting my own hours. I couldn't handle bricklaying or footing turf, I'm not hiding that.

You're twisting words. He is being forced if he isn't been given a choice. You could call it parenting too, but I'd call how it was handled bad parenting.

And I disagree about it standing to him, I've worked a few minimum wage jobs where the goal for almost all the staff was doing as little as possible without getting caught. I held onto that attitude into my first job out of college and it didn't do me any favours.

He's 14, not 16 and it's during a pandemic, it won't do him any harm to wait a year or two.

beauf

Really into flat earther territory here.

If you haven't seen or experienced it. Then its not true.

Lefty Bicek

GarIT wrote: »

And I'm an employer who doesn't value that experience. Completely disagree with the poster you referenced. We provide phones but as staff to stick to email as much as possible for a clear written record.

Your attitude is absolutely the minority one.

I know he's working for peanuts because the OP said so. He is getting almost 30% less than minimum wage.

I didn't say otherwise, and I believe I said earlier that people should be paid properly for the work they do.

Still, great experience.

I did consider a trade. I considered working as an electrician, liked the idea of setting my own hours. I couldn't handle bricklaying for footing turf, I'm not hiding that.

Most electricians don't set their own hours, and bricklayers haven't 'footed turf' (!) in aeons, if they ever did.

You're twisting words. He is being forced if he isn't been given a choice. You could call it parenting too, but I'd call how it was handled bad parenting.

How it was handled is separate from the principle of the thing. I believe I also said earlier that it could have been handled better.

Nevertheless, there is no necessary contradiction between 'parenting' and 'forcing/insisting/demanding', simply because it's not an equal relationship.

And I disagree about it standing to him...

Presumptuous in the extreme, unless you know him.

I've worked a few minimum wage jobs where the goal for almost all the staff was doing as little as possible without getting caught.

You're simply painting a picture that you wish to paint.

I held onto that attitude into my first job out of college and it didn't do me any favours.

And look at you now ! It wasn't catastrophic after all, was it ?

He's 14, not 16 and it's during a pandemic, it won't do him any harm to wait a year or two.

It won't do him any harm to get on with it either. Pandemic or not. If your argument was strong enough, you wouldn't need to refer to the pandemic at all.

Mark Hamill

beauf wrote: »

Most have given the same advice about the kid and the parent regardless if they believe in kids having a summer job or not. So that's a strawman.

All but one did that without having to drag up old posts and make personal comments. So it's completely unnecessary. As is attacking each other.

What is a strawman?

And criticism based on 30 seconds of reading OP's public posts is an "attack"? In this day and age, when what you post online is usually examined before a job interview?
I don't think it's the OPs 14 year old son who needs to mature.

GarIT

For clarity. I'm not saying there is no value to it. Especially during the summer when it won't have an impact on education. But it's during the worst crisis in generations, he is only 14, he doesn't want to do it, the conditions being offered are so poor they are illegal, there is also value to having more time enjoying your childhood. I don't think the possible benefits outweight the negatives of it.

And with that I'm going to leave this thread because no new points are being made. We're not going to get anywhere and it has descended to insults being thrown. There are better things to be doing on this fine bank holiday weekend. It would probably be more beneficial for us to get off the internet that it would be for either side of the equation for the kid.

Mark Hamill

Treppen wrote: »

Bringing stuff across from other threads is a dick move.

Each post on its own merits.

Why is it a dick move?

Lefty Bicek

GarIT wrote: »

For clarity. I'm not saying there is no value to it. Especially during the summer when it won't have an impact on education. But it's during the worst crisis in generations, he is only 14, he doesn't want to do it, the conditions being offered are so poor they are illegal, there is also value to having more time enjoying your childhood. I don't think the possible benefits outweight the negatives of it.

And with that I'm going to leave this thread because no new points are being made. We're not going to get anywhere and it has descended to insults being thrown. There are better things to be doing on this fine bank holiday weekend. It would probably be more beneficial for us to get off the internet that it would be for either side of the equation for the kid.

You have a point.

I wish you and everyone else here a nice and relaxing weekend.

Truthvader

€40 per day is €200 per week. Most 14 year olds outside of the drug trade would be well happy. Unless of course they already have access to €200 per week in which case there is a whole different problem

freshpopcorn

Truthvader wrote: »

€40 per day is €200 per week. Most 14 year olds outside of the drug trade would be well happy. Unless of course they already have access to €200 per week in which case there is a whole different problem

It's a two day a week thing from my understanding.

From what I can tell the OP hasn't been online since Thursday evening and I'm unsure if there account is even active anymore.

beauf

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What is a strawman?

And criticism based on 30 seconds of reading OP's public posts is an "attack"? In this day and age, when what you post online is usually examined before a job interview?
I don't think it's the OPs 14 year old son who needs to mature.

This isn't a job interview. It's a forum with its own code of behaviour and rules. No one else making the same point did what you did. There no point in explaining this further.

beauf

GarIT wrote: »

For clarity. I'm not saying there is no value to it. ..

In fairness you pretty much did. No matter how you qualify that. But it's been interesting to read about the legality of it and the different mindsets.

challengemaster

beauf wrote: »

All but one did that without having to drag up old posts and make personal comments. So it's completely unnecessary. As is attacking each other.

Is the OP not also making biased personal comments about their son for the sole purpose of having people on the internet agree with their point of view?

"Doesn't do much around the house"
"Hate seeing them on the xbox all day"

The son isn't on here giving his input, we're judging "what's best" based on what the OP said.

Someone looked at the OP's post history. While the way it was worded may seem malicious, the information seems pertinent nonetheless.

If the other guy looked at the OP's posting history and found he was an incredibly successful entrepreneur at a young age, everyone on here would be piling into the "look at that he clearly knows best for his child about these things".

riclad

I would not ask a 14 year old to work, there's only one chance to be young. Everyone is under stress, young people cummunicate by phone also online gaming xbox is a way to be in a group with friends,
No one is going to school. You are basically
Cutting off all his social life in the middle of a pandemic I went to school til I was 18, I did not work apart from a few weeks until I left school
I think you are being very cruel and thoughtless
Teens go through a phase of growing up, they seek to be close to friends ,
Its a biological process, our brains develop until
We are 17 , 18 years old
I understand in rural areas kids do some work on farms or do chores etc
I do not think any 14 year old should be forced to work especially at this time
Give him back the xbox and the phone
Maybe say if he wants to work a few days a week it's up to him
I think 14 is way too early to be thinking of developing a work ethic
Even in America most kids do no work before they are 16 we are all in lock down
I presume most young people talk with friends
over social media apps and online games like fortnite also some friends maybe outside the 5k limit so it seems wrong to me to take his phone at this time

riclad

Employers do not care if someone works in a warehouse for a few weeks, also forcing him to work is not good parenting, let him enjoy his childhood and make friends and try and Get thru the pandemic it's 2020 teens social networks are based on apps and gaming
and he can't meet up in school

Tom Mann Centuria

This constant need to push adulthood on kids earlier and earlier, so they'll be good little worker drones at whatever they're told is important at the time for "business" is quite depressing.

His primary "job" at the moment is to learn, discover, have fun and by what op says he's doing well in his primary job, he's doing well at school.

If he decided he wanted a job, great more power to him, or that his dad said, there's a job lined up if you fancy it, fine. It's how an adult would discuss something with another adult.

Not this fait accompli though where the son who's expected to be mature was not allowed to make any kind of mature decision other than the one his dad wants.

I won't elaborate on my opinion of the incentive/punishment aspect of trying to make him do it, except to say it stinks. All imo of course.

CivilCybil

OP parent of a teen here.
They started working in a family business the summer they turned 13. Just a few hours a couple of times a week. When they were 16 they got an official, tax paying job.
Got fed up of it a year in and school work was piling on so packed it in. I warned them that the summer was fast approaching and no job=no money. But they went ahead and other than my initial reaction I said nothing. Covid 19 hit and now they are jobless, starting summer holidays with no prospect of a job and regretting giving it up.
So we agreed I would pay a set amount per week with general jobs around the house to be done (as always) and a few bigger jobs too. Nothing major. Cleaning windows, washing cars etc.
A good work ethic is important. However as teenagers they are starting to resent parental influence and want to be treated more like adults even though they're kids.
So to just organise the job and tell him he's doing it, I think his reaction is pretty much to be expected.
You have to start treating teenagers in a way that lets them know they have choices but there are consequences for those choices.

Had it been me I'd have broached the topic with him, said the offer was there and to think about it. If he said no then I'd have said grand, but you're not doing nothing all summer so we can agree a rate of pocket money but these are the chores that need to be done.
If he didn't want to do that then no money, no credit for phone, nothing. It can be earned. He has the time and the ability.
But it's his choice and he'd feel in control

As the damage is done I'd give him back his Xbox, tell him you don't want to be falling out with him over it and agree to draw a line under it.
Outline his choices
1) he works for friend for 80quid a week
2) he does x chores at home for y money
3) no chores done, no money or treats or extras.

He might not like the choices but he'll know he has to pick one and at least it'll be his decision as to how he spends his summer.
Just hold firm if he chooses no chores and don't give him any money unless he agrees to do something in return.

Wanderer19

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If you don't discuss his actual points then you aren't even part of the debate.

Swearing at people shows a complete lack of respect for them. I won't engage with that type of person.

If you had read the full thread you would have known I had read his points and gave my own - and that was his response - he doesn't like my opinion so thinks it's ok to swear at me.

Mark Hamill

beauf wrote: »

This isn't a job interview.

No, its a discussion forum. How exactly can you have a discussion if you aren't allowed to look at everything relevant that the OP posted.
Calling "attack" because the OP isn't agreed with is immature.

beauf wrote: »

It's a forum with its own code of behaviour and rules. No one else making the same point did what you did. There no point in explaining this further.

I wasn't the one who looked up the OPs other posts.

Mark Hamill

Wanderer19 wrote: »

Swearing at people shows a complete lack of respect for them. I won't engage with that type of person.

If you had read the full thread you would have known I had read his points and gave my own - and that was his response - he doesn't like my opinion so thinks it's ok to swear at me.

Swearing doesn't make something disrespectful, that is a very childish way of looking at it.
I have read the full thread, and while you did respond a few times, it kinda looks like you have been backed into a corner and are trying to escape under faux-offense.
But, sure, lets just agree that you are taking an entirely mature position here, not wanting to talk to people who use naughty words and lets get back to the issue being discussed:

Wanderer19 wrote:

Entitlement and worth are 2 different things (other posters mentioned worth).

He may be 'entitled' to minimum wage, but without experience whose to say he can do the job asked, or will be punctual, respectful etc.?

What does that have to do with anything? Who's to say anyone hired for any job can actually do it, or will be punctual or respectful? They're still entitled to the minimum wage - that's the law. It's not conditional.

beauf

Mark Hamill wrote: »

No, its a discussion forum. How exactly can you have a discussion if you aren't allowed to look at everything relevant that the OP posted...

Everyone else managed it.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Calling "attack" because the OP isn't agreed with is immature...

The thread had degenerated into personal attacks fro posters on both sides (if there are sides). I said it was unnecessary.

beauf wrote: »

All but one did that without having to drag up old posts and make personal comments. So it's completely unnecessary..... As is attacking each other.

...if thats what you were referring to hard to know, with no context.

spurious

I was thinking about this last night (I know, 'get a life').

Both parties seem a bit entrenched now.
Would there be any possibility the lad could be even now given some choice in the matter, rather than be forced into it?
Could the godfather come up with another offer? Four mornings or four afternoons for the same money?
Would there be another 'friend' who might need some work doing and he/she could approach the young lad?

I know from teaching there are a number of strategies to get teenagers to do what you want in such a way that they think it was their idea all the time (I know, mess with their heads... or what?).

Even if he is actually enjoying the job, at 14 it takes a great deal of maturity after all the protesting to admit that he might actually like it.

spurious

spurious wrote: »

I was thinking about this last night (I know, 'get a life').

Both parties seem a bit entrenched now.
Would there be any possibility the lad could be even now given some choice in the matter, rather than be forced into it?
Could the godfather come up with another offer? Four mornings or four afternoons for the same money?
Would there be another 'friend' who might need some work doing and he/she could approach the young lad?

I know from teaching there are a number of strategies to get teenagers to do what you want in such a way that they think it was their idea all the time (I know, mess with their heads... or what?).

Even if he is actually enjoying the job, at 14 it takes a great deal of maturity after all the protesting to admit that he might actually like it.

I think the OP is long gone off this thread. I don't blame him. He got a lot of abuse

Homelander

Jesus, he's 14, not 4, and a few hours work is certainly no harm. He's not being asked to go coal-mining 40 hours a week, some people really need to get a grip.

I'm in my 30's and almost all of my friends started working at 14/15. Most of us had to be "forced" but once we started earning our own money and understood what "working" was all about, you'd never go back.

One or two would've even been 13/14, with parents who ran their own business.

If you left it entirely up to the kid he'd probably be sitting at home in a dark room playing the Xbox until he was 20. The vast majority of kids need that first push and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

People arguing therapeutic approaches that "convince the teenager it was his idea" - eh, sorry, just no. How about "You're getting a job and that's that".

spurious

Homelander wrote: »

J How about "You're getting a job and that's that".

Because that was a tremendous success.

riclad

I got no push from no one, I went to school, got my leaving
cert and got a job. I read an article today. It says as teens grow up their brains are developing having constant contact with friends is absolutely crucial From what I read nowadays kids talk on xbox live while gaming
and using apps on a phone. When I was 14, I was growing
up going to school I did not think of getting a job
Doing the leaving cert is hard work. I would maybe consider asking him in two years if he wants to work
during summer holidays. Ie it's his choice, forcing
Kids to work Is a bad idea. Give him back his phone
and the xbox and let him have a normal life,
or as close to normal considering the lockdown rules
we are all under. If he needs extra money in 2 years
time maybe he, ll get a part time job.
Part of growing up is learning to make choices for
yourself.Eg I might need extra money maybe I get
a part time job. Or maybe I,ll concentrate on my
school work
I think saying every child should work at 14 or 16
is an extreme position to take, more young people
go to third level college now, so school work is more
important now than in previous generations

Mark Hamill

beauf wrote: »

Everyone else managed it.

And then someone got more information and made a more informed argument.

beauf wrote: »

The thread had degenerated into personal attacks fro posters on both sides (if there are sides). I said it was unnecessary.

...if thats what you were referring to hard to know, with no context.

I was mixing you up with sweetmaggie.
I do agree that personal attacks are unnecessary. I don't believe looking at the OPs posting history was wrong (sweetmaggie's assertion).