George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

2u2me

Horrendous. Just watched the CNN clip (Which contains graphic scenes).

Footage starts after he is arreseted but it doesn't matter no-one should be treated like that.

Those officers need to be charged.



Admin Note (03-06-20):

There are pages of backhanded swipes in this thread in the past day, enough that I was considering just purging the last 6 hours of posts.

From here on in, any backhanded comments or swipes towards each other will be met with an immediate card (yellow or red, depending on the severity), and a threadban. Outright insults will be met with a week long forum ban.

Overheal

Yeah I saw this afternoon. The incident was disgusting and didn't need to happen.

Everyone will be happy to know the 4 officers involved have been Fired, hours after an initial statement that they would be suspended pending an internal investigation.

#WhyHeKneeled

BloodBath

Fired isn't enough. They should be charged with murder.

Reminds me of the goons from clockwork orange.

Geuze

I'm always amazed that staff in the USA can be fired so quickly.

I assume that can't happen here.

Guy:Incognito

They mention a 10 minute clip on facebook, does it show the other 3 doing much (apart from obviously not stopping the guy )? Do they even tell him to take his knee off him? presumably they used the most relevant part?


Whats the situation with the laws around being fired? They say the 4 were fired, yet with loads of the shootings, cops were placed on leave for ages first. Have they opened themselves up to a court case by going straight to firing them or has he the power to do that?

Overheal

BloodBath wrote: »

Fired isn't enough. They should be charged with murder.

Reminds me of the goons from clockwork orange.

I agree. This only happened a few hours ago (or at least the video emerging of it did) and I wouldn't expect a turnaround on any such charges right away. The proper thing to do actually is the PD recuses themselves from the chain and the DA needs to decide who to prosecute, and that process might take a minute.

NIMAN

Very sad.

Also its sad to say I'm not surprised seeing how US police seem to go about their business.

Overheal

Geuze wrote: »

I'm always amazed that staff in the USA can be fired so quickly.

I assume that can't happen here.

Police are heavily unionized, and are one of the few types of unions that political conservatives veer away from upsetting.

I don't know if this PD in particular was unionized, but it was Minneapolis, Minnesota.

If they were union, the sudden firing is more significant IMHO.

Overheal

Piece originally written this afternoon/4-8 hours ago:

All body camera footage in the Minneapolis case was turned over to the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, and the agency asked to speak with anyone who saw the arrest or recorded video. The officers involved have been put on paid administrative leave, per department protocol [newer updates say 4 officers were fired]. The agency said the officers' names will be released after initial interviews with the people involved and witnesses.

The FBI is conducting a separate federal civil rights investigation, at the request of Minneapolis police, the BCA said. Messages left with the FBI were not immediately returned.

The American Civil Liberties Union was among many organizations calling for the officers to be held accountable.

“You can’t watch this appalling video posted by brave eyewitnesses on social media without seeing police officers’ callous disregard for a black man’s life," ACLU of Minnesota Executive Director John Gordon said, calling the death "both needless and preventable."

https://www.kmov.com/news/4-minneapolis-officers-fired-after-death-of-black-man-video-shows-officer-kneeling-on-his/article_5bc04664-9f53-11ea-9292-f77e394530e9.html

A state Criminal Apprehension Bureau, btw, is primarily concerned with matters such as this where a suspect dies while in police custody. FBI may charge any 4 of these officers, seemingly, with violating the man's civil liberties. I don't know how clear the chain of events would be to proving violation of civil liberties, and say, charging them with manslaughter. It depends on a lot of particulars that are still unclear. And, they were still acting under the color of law. But the ACLU will pressure. The family will pressure, and inevitably the city, the media, nation, and social media. So, who can really say yet. I don't know if that was the moment he died, for example? And at what point did they call EMTs and why this and why that etc. - I've only seen a little bit of the clip so far and so has most of joe public.

2u2me

I just watched the whole video(10 mins one) It's even worse then CNN make out.

The bystanders tried to intervene and cop with his knee on Floyd's neck pulls out mace to keep them away.

Really says something when bystanders nearly try to stop the police themselves.

Overheal

2u2me wrote: »

I just watched the whole video(10 mins one) It's even worse then CNN make out.

The bystanders tried to intervene and cop with his knee on Floyd's neck pulls out mace to keep them away.

Really says something when bystanders nearly try to stop the police themselves.

The briefer version I had seen, I equally felt the urge to physically intervene to get his airway open, but also the strong apprehension of what the consequences of that are here in the US. Now, I'm not suggesting these officers on this scene were at the low-ready, or anything; I am opining that they would surely have arrested and prosecuted anyone who did, which is a crippling process in the US justice system. Especially when you're going to be arrested on top of that, if not tasered or met equally with Excessive Force as the person you're trying to help. I don't think there's any protection in the law for bystanders to take action in this type of case scenario.

Expect this to get more political though, with intrigue and victim blaming etc. too. The Call involving the suspect and the officers was about suspected cheque fraud at a grocery store.

I'm seeing the full length video now, and the suspect's pleas to comply with and surrender to the officers' arrest. I'm sorry I don't know the man's name yet. Officers behavior I don't have words for yet, but they are definitely improper, and through their words and actions and the sheer duration of the problem here, on the side of the road, I can see why Minneapolis PD isn't, you know, waiting for an autopsy report to victim-blame the guy for smoking weed or something - because the officers were clearly already in the wrong well enough before the point of no return for ending this man's life. The suspect was a sobbing mess. When officers asked him if he would comply and get in the vehicle he begged yes. They still sat in place against his neck while other officers tried to mock the intelligence of the public going "he's a tough guy, he's a tough guy" etc.

Be right back

2u2me wrote: »

I just watched the whole video(10 mins one) It's even worse then CNN make out.

The bystanders tried to intervene and cop with his knee on Floyd's neck pulls out mace to keep them away.

Really says something when bystanders nearly try to stop the police themselves.

Even when he had passed out, the cop still had his knee on the poor man's neck. Desperate stuff.

Guy:Incognito

Overheal wrote: »

. I don't think there's any protection in the law for bystanders to take action in this type of case scenario.

.

Problem is , protections in law are the least of your worries if they decide to shoot you if you run at the guy to get him off.

Then on the law side, if you knock him off him and get arrested and say you were stopping him killing him, they'll say he wasnt going to die anyway. Proving he was killing him would probably be impossible, except if you failed...........

The_Kew_Tour

Whatever he had done, it gave Police no right to do what they did.

He was not aggressive and was happy to be taken away once he could get up off the floor.

Seen the whole video and the book should be thrown at that police officer who had his knee on the chap. No excuses for this at all.

Billy Mays

I'm gonna have to know this guy Floyd's criminal history before I decide whether the cop should be charged with his death or should walk away scott free

Telly

This is so sad, the poor man

seamus

The US is such a mess.

Between this and the woman who called the cops claiming a black guy was threatening her, it's clear that their racism problem hasn't gone away and is in fact getting worse.

YFlyer

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They mention a 10 minute clip on facebook, does it show the other 3 doing much (apart from obviously not stopping the guy )? Do they even tell him to take his knee off him? presumably they used the most relevant

Three of the cops were on top of the man.

degsie

The casual nature of how the police snuffed this mans life out is appalling. Another public execution carried out in broad daylight.

seamus

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Whats the situation with the laws around being fired? They say the 4 were fired, yet with loads of the shootings, cops were placed on leave for ages first. Have they opened themselves up to a court case by going straight to firing them or has he the power to do that?

Varies by state and by job. Cops in the US aren't the same as over here.
To a certain extent it's more of a "regular job"; get an interview, pass a background check, do a training course over a few weeks, go out into the wild.

Each state, and in many cases each county within a state is responsible for hiring and managing its own police force.

Like most jobs, they can be dismissed for gross misconduct. There will often not be any formal oversight body. Their boss just decides they fcked up and fires them.

In this case they would review the video and decide that the four cops committed gross misconduct and fire them. Even if they were acquitted at a later date of murder, they still breached the rules of the job.

The sad thing is that all four of these guys will just go get a job with a police force in another county or state. In most countries, a dismissal from any police force would automatically bar you from working for any other law enforcement agency.

ELM327

I'm always trying to apply the innocent till proven guilty, respect the badge line. But this one is very hard to defend.
I couldnt watch the full video.

ohnonotgmail

seamus wrote: »

Varies by state and by job. Cops in the US aren't the same as over here.
To a certain extent it's more of a "regular job"; get an interview, pass a background check, do a training course over a few weeks, go out into the wild.

Each state, and in many cases each county within a state is responsible for hiring and managing its own police force.

Like most jobs, they can be dismissed for gross misconduct. There will often not be any formal oversight body. Their boss just decides they fcked up and fires them.

In this case they would review the video and decide that the four cops committed gross misconduct and fire them. Even if they were acquitted at a later date of murder, they still breached the rules of the job.

The sad thing is that all four of these guys will just go get a job with a police force in another county or state. In most countries, a dismissal from any police force would automatically bar you from working for any other law enforcement agency.

not if they get convicted of negligent homicide. Which they should.

krissovo

Geuze wrote: »

I'm always amazed that staff in the USA can be fired so quickly.

I assume that can't happen here.

Most jobs in America have no associated contract, Senior executives will have a contract similar to what we have but the workers do not. Workers will have terms which is their hours of work, salary, paid time off, sick days and location. The main protection is to do a good job in the first place that drives a culture of working long hours, not taking holidays and generally shafting your colleagues to make you look good. Its ruthless!

Nozebleed

there no intent to kill the man. in fairness. its accidental..they are trying to restrain the man,heavy handed..but murderous intent? no..

harr

Always wary of these videos , as we never really see what happens before the video starts. But after watching the 10 minute clip this is really hard to defend in any form...even after the man goes unconscious the cop doesn’t release pressure and the bystander was well aware of the damage the cop was causing.
The man was in no way a treat after the first 4 or 5 minutes ..if 4 trained cops can’t subdue One criminal without having to resort To this level then they are or were in the wrong job.
I can definitely see a murder charge for the cop using his knee..the others might get lesser charges.
At one stage he was saying his stomach and chest hurts so the pressure on his body must have huge and enough for him to piss himself.
The video is a hard watch, witnessing the life being squeezed out of a person and terrible frustration for the bystanders who move than likely would have shot if they had intervened.

ohnonotgmail

Nozebleed wrote: »

there no intent to kill the man. in fairness. its accidental..they are trying to restrain the man,heavy handed..but murderous intent? no..

thats why i think it is negligent homicide. he told them he couldn't breathe. they continued to kneel on his neck.

ohnonotgmail

osarusan wrote: »

We've already seen fakes of one of the McMichaels attending a KKK rally in the other thread. Very easy to fake stuff.


A google image search for 'make whites great again cap' only shows up that supposed image of the cop and nothing else.

that wasn't fake, it was somebody that looked like him.

two wheels good

Billy Mays wrote: »

I'm gonna have to know this guy Floyd's criminal history before I decide whether the cop should be charged with his death or should walk away scott free

You seem unaware of how policing and the application of justice is designed to function.

ohnonotgmail

two wheels good wrote: »

You seem unaware of how policing and the application of justice is designed to function.

i think you missed the sarcasm in the post

FVP3

Do people regularly watch American news on here all the time? I wouldn't recommend it, that country is in the middle of an intergenerational culture war and picking either side is just going to enrage you.

As one of the bystanders said, the cop was enjoying the whole thing.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Nozebleed wrote: »

there no intent to kill the man. in fairness. its accidental..they are trying to restrain the man,heavy handed..but murderous intent? no..

Murderous intent..

Like say having a man handcuffed face down on the ground with 4 cops to help subdue him if he tries to resist/cause problems.. all the while one has his knee placed on the guys neck for at least 3 minutes while there zero words or movement for the handcuffed guy and the only thing you're being bothered about is pulling your pepper spray out on people who are telling you, you are killing him..

Once a suspect is handcuffed, their treat level decreases massively, he was handcuffed the whole length of the video, yet he still had a knee placed on his neck.

The sooner a cop gets done for murder in one of these cases the better I think the public will be going forward..

Gatling

Another senseless murder of a black man by white cops ,

Kneeling one someone's neck while lying flat on the ground for ten minutes isn't justified in any way he was under control but yet we watch as he dies in front of out eyes ,how many times does this need to happen before America wakes up .

It's sick and unjust

ELM327

FVP3 wrote: »

Do people regularly watch American news on here all the time? I wouldn't recommend it, that country is in the middle of an intergenerational culture war and picking either side is just going to enrage you.

I generally watch nbc nightly news and something from the right to balance.

ohnonotgmail

osarusan wrote: »

Have you a link for that?

you mentioned it, i assume you had already seen it,

KKkitty

This is why they kneel. Cops in America are a law onto themselves. Thankfully these so called police officers were fired but I'm afraid they'll be let away with it somehow. Between this and the Christian Cooper case that went viral the other day the treatment of Black men in the US is disgusting. When will it ever change?

MeMen2_MoRi_

osarusan wrote: »

We've already seen fakes of one of the McMichaels attending a KKK rally in the other thread. Very easy to fake stuff.


A google image search for 'make whites great again cap' only shows up that supposed image of the cop and nothing else.

Can you delete the quote, don't want it to be a discussion. My bad should of image searched before sharing.

Mad_maxx

anyone see that video doing the rounds of the female in central park NYC who was asked to put her dog back on its lead by a man , the rules state dogs must be on a lead in this part of central park

anyway she takes offense and then proceeds to phone the police and tell them " an african american man has threatened me and i think hes going to kill me "

worse still she even told the guy she was going to tell the cops that very thing , the guy remained calm and polite to an incredible degree

what a vile witch ?

seamus

KKkitty wrote: »

This is why they kneel. Cops in America are a law onto themselves. Thankfully these so called police officers were fired but I'm afraid they'll be let away with it somehow. Between this and the Christian Cooper case that went viral the other day the treatment of Black men in the US is disgusting. When will it ever change?

After the outright racist groups like the KKK were forced underground by the mid-1900s, there were claims made that these groups had resolved between themselves to infiltrate the defence forces by pushing their kids into police and military service.

Especially with America's cult of military worship, white America considered this to be little more than a conspiracy theory; pockets of alleged racism in the cops were just that - niches of backwards racists.

The proliferation of objective evidence like this has now shown that even if racist groups aren't in control of the defence forces, they seem to have joined in sufficient numbers to have impacted the attitudes of police across the US. There's little doubt now that racism doesn't exist in small pockets of US police forces, or corrupt little enclaves. It's endemic, and exists in every city.

All that fandango

Hope its ok to ask this here, dont want to start a new thread...Why is race still such a divisive issue in the States? Black Americans went through a horrid time until they got equality in the 50s/60s, yet it seems they are still as persecuted now as back they were back then?

ohnonotgmail

Mad_maxx wrote: »

anyone see that video doing the rounds of the female in central park NYC who was asked to put her dog back on its lead by a man , the rules state dogs must be on a lead in this part of central park

anyway she takes offense and then proceeds to phone the police and tell them " an african american man has threatened me and i think hes going to kill me "

worse still she even told the guy she was going to tell the cops that very thing , the guy remained calm and polite to an incredible degree

what a vile witch ?

she was suspended by her employer apparently

ohnonotgmail

All that fandango wrote: »

Hope its ok to ask this here, dont want to start a new thread...Why is race still such a divisive issue in the States? Black Americans went through a horrid time until they got equality in the 50s/60s, yet it seems they are still as persecuted now as back they were back then?

given people civil rights does not stop people from being racist.

CrankyHaus

Geuze wrote: »

I'm always amazed that staff in the USA can be fired so quickly.

I assume that can't happen here.

God no, not remotely. In general it's a positive thing for employment rights here but for Gardaí it was close to immunity for wrongdoing, at least until Commisioner Harris began to introduce some semblance of professional accountability.



Worth noting that he faced some resistance for forcing a trainee Garda to resign for participating in a porno video in uniform having sex on a patrol car. In doing so he overruled the disciplinary inquiry which recommended fining the Garda a couple of weeks wages, which indicates the value previously placed on professional conduct within the force.



A good example of Garda misconduct was the Garda shooting of John Carthy in Abbeylara, where mere attempts at external investigation, with no disciplinary action or dismissal, were repeatedly undermined.

For example when the Irish Government attempted to form an Oireachtas subcommittee merely to investigate the Gardaí took them to Court to declare the subcommittee unconstitutional.
The GRA supported the Gardai involved throughout and criticised the subsequent Barr Tribunal.
Garda Management made a point of promoting the negotiator to Superintendent 6 weeks before the Barr Tribunal Report as a symbolic F-you.
The Commissioner made a point of not apologising to the family until pressure from Mr Carthy's sister.


The Garda Siochána Ombudsman Commission that was subsequently formed was bugged by electronic surveillance, that it became aware of after a Senior Garda let slip that he knew the contents of a secret GSOC report. A UK counter-surveillance firm uncovered evidence of the surveillance. This is believed to have been linked to GSOC's investigation of the Garda Handling of Kieran Boylan, a drug-runner caught with €1.7M of drugs while on bail for a previous €750,000 haul, who had the case against him withdrawn twice and whom Gardai assisted in obtaining a haulage license. The judicial inquiry of the bugging was a whitewash. The GSOC investigation of the Boylan case was fatally undermined by Gardai refusing to cooperate with it. The AGSI and GRA called on the head of GSOC to resign, which he subsequently did; indicating that when GSOC clashed with the Gardai, the Gardai won.



However many people in this country would rather obsess over the minutiae of police actions in another country 3,000 miles away than pay attention to events here in Ireland.

RWCNT

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

she was suspended by her employer apparently

She should also be charged with wasting police time/making a false report if there's any legal mechanism to do so.

This video is probably the worst of this kind I've ever seen. That poor, poor man - and the people who had to witness this. As someone said earlier in the thread, the thought of watching this and not being able to intervene without risking your own life is harrowing. I can't even begin to imagine feeling so powerless... "Land of the free" my arse.

ohnonotgmail

RWCNT wrote: »

She should also be charged with wasting police time/making a false report if there's any legal mechanism to do so.

This video is probably the worst of this kind I've ever seen. That poor, poor man - and the people who had to witness this. As someone said earlier in the thread, the thought of watching this and not being able to intervene without risking your own life is harrowing. I can't even begin to imagine feeling so powerless... "Land of the free" my arse.

there is certainly a legal mechanism for charging her with wasting police time. the police did come out but she had already left. the question is whether the will exists to do it.

seamus

All that fandango wrote: »

Hope its ok to ask this here, dont want to start a new thread...Why is race still such a divisive issue in the States? Black Americans went through a horrid time until they got equality in the 50s/60s, yet it seems they are still as persecuted now as back they were back then?

Legal recognition is the first step towards ending bigotry, not the last. Same reason why homophobia in Ireland didn't end in 1994 and sexism and racism didn't evaporate when the equal status act came in, in 1999.

Race relations are obviously a very deep issue in the US. It goes back through generations of slavery. White Americans are on average wealthier and better educated than black Americans.

Part of this is rooted in the fact that white families were built on black slavery. But even after the end of slavery, black people were denied rights that were afforded everyone else - even immigrants. Namely the right to run businesses, earn fair wages, own property and attend education. All things that are essential if your children, grandchildren and their ancestors are to have a hope of being equals.

This divide isn't something that goes away when you provide equal rights. American cultural strongly clings to the fallacy that being poor or wealthy is a choice that someone makes, and that hard work will make you successful.
As a result, no attempt has been made to help poor Americans - of which blacks make up a huge proportion - and so they remain on the wrong side of wealth, the wrong side of education, and the wrong side of the law.

There is then a complex intermix of stereotyping and media scaremongering and systemic abuses that coalesce to ensure that poor people stay poor, wealthy people remain afraid of them, and the organs of the state protect the wealthy from the poor. Black people aren't just fighting generations of poverty, they're also fighting generations of racism and stereotyping that have been passed onto the modern descendants of slaveowners and european immigrants.

Gatling

CrankyHaus wrote: »

However many people in this country would rather obsess over the minutiae of police actions in another country 3,000 miles away than pay attention to events here in Ireland.

Wasn't there threads discussing it at the time ,abbylara 10+ years later

J. Marston

Mad_maxx wrote: »

anyone see that video doing the rounds of the female in central park NYC who was asked to put her dog back on its lead by a man , the rules state dogs must be on a lead in this part of central park

anyway she takes offense and then proceeds to phone the police and tell them " an african american man has threatened me and i think hes going to kill me "

worse still she even told the guy she was going to tell the cops that very thing , the guy remained calm and polite to an incredible degree

what a vile witch ?

She is a racist and it's a horrible thing to do to someone.

But (hear me out)...

This is the version of the event, from the man involved...



"If you're going to do what you want, I'm going to do what I want and you're not going to like it. Come here, puppy."

Her response was disproportionate but if a stranger says something like that to me, I'm on the defensive immediately and thinking this person is a weirdo or dangerous.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

she was suspended by her employer apparently

and since been fired. Rightfully so too.

StinkyMunkey

Nozebleed wrote: »

there no intent to kill the man. in fairness. its accidental..they are trying to restrain the man,heavy handed..but murderous intent? no..

A 14/15 stone man kneeling on your neck, what could go wrong........!

I'd usually be first to give the benefit of doubt to the police, but this is at best a total disregard for someone's safety. The officer is casually kneeling on the guys neck as if it's nothing.

I challenge anyone one who says this wasn't man slaughter at the very least to have a 14/15 stone person kneel on their necks - no I didn't think so.

CrankyHaus

J. Marston wrote: »

Her response was disproportionate but if a stranger says something like that to me, I'm on the defensive immediately and thinking this person is a weirdo or dangerous.

By giving your dog treats?


Your man seems to have handled a tense situation a little oddly, but what do you expect from a middle-aged bird watcher?
It takes all sort.



I'm not mad about piling onto your one, or doxxing her, or taking pleasure in her life being destroyed, but I'm happy that that gentleman didn't have his life destroyed by her.