Completely Put Off Having Children

FVP3

Roger the cabin boy wrote: »

Its almost like the economy is the only reason to live...

The end of growth based capitalism can't come soon enough

Well good news for you, it is ending in the west. Negative this year.

I'd prefer carbon neutral growth myself.

andekwarhola

Most people are just quietly OK with their own life choice in this regard.

Whenever I meet (or read) somebody that's very strident about either choice they made, I always just suspect that there are regrets or insecurity there that they will never divulge.

FVP3

tobefrank321 wrote: »

We can take Ireland as an example.

Tell me an era when we were more prosperous or more peaceful?

1920s? 1930s? 1940s? 50s? 60s? 70s? 80s?

We only started to become prosperous from the mid 90s onwards. And peaceful.

We can take the UK - world wars, cold war, post war rationing, oil crisis, Thatcher, etc

US, similar.

Tell me a previous era more prosperous or peaceful?

Sure houses are more expensive. That's because people have an utterly stupid desire to live in low density houses in cities, or else apartments in the middle of cities. High house prices also reflect higher wages.

Most non unionised jobs pay reasonably well. Most unionised jobs don't pay that well. There is no link between unionised and pay. One of the reasons for the collapse in jobs in various parts of the west is because of strong unionisation. The company owners said to hell with this and moved to Asia or elsewhere.

As for automation, we've had automation for half a century in most industries. And yet before covid 19 we had virtually full employment in the west. The fear of automation is misplaced. Many companies such as car companies would not be possible without robots working alongside people. Without the robots, they'd go bust, putting tens of thousands on the dole.

Pensions are largely secure and usually bounce back, unless you decide to invest in high risk areas, which many people do. The key is in the words high risk. Either high returns or bust. If you invest sensibly, your pension will be fine.

State pensions are secure.

Life expectancy is almost twice what it is in practically every century up to the 20th.

You aren't really addressing my arguments which are about the future, not the past. We are talking about the lifetime of children born now, or to be born. Sure people born in 1945 were born to a poorer society but it got much richer over their lifetime.

Life expectancy is indeed higher than it was, that wasn't my argument. I said it had peaked. Here are the US figures:

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/life-expectancy

Theres a clear stagnation there.

Pensions. There are massive unfunded liabilities there and as the age profile of society increases the cost to pay those pensions will increase, increasing tax take, pension retirement age, pension payouts or most likely all 3. And I mean huge tax increases, or huge reductions in state pensions ( public sector pensions are contracted). Solutions to this like high immigration bring their own problem and only kick the can down the road.

https://scottishfinancialreview.com/2018/03/07/uk-pension-liabilities-up-1-trillion-to-7-6-trillion/

Wages have also stagnated in the US for a generation, and there has been little growth in many western European countries throughout the 2000s, what growth there has been has probably been eliminated this year. In the post war period wages grew enough to double or triple in a generation.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/04/where-in-europe-have-wages-fallen-most/

House Prices: People always wanted to live where you claim they now want to live. And they could. House prices have risen more than wages in every western country for a generation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/e1jrvw/oc_salaries_vs_house_prices_in_uk/

Unionisation: Your claim is counter factual, the unionised workers in the private sector were more secure and better paid than the modern worker relative to the economy, (some small parts of the private economy aside like IT). And if you think unions forced the employers to go to Asia to get lower wages, then of course thats admitting that point.

Since the collapse of trade unionism and the rise of neo-liberalism wage increases have decoupled from productivity.

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

So the idea that we are now living in a era of squalor or one of the worst times in history is not supported by anything.

But of course I didn't say that. I said we are entering a period of secular ( long term) stagnation or decline.

Fourier

FVP3 wrote: »

Life expectancy is indeed higher than it was, that wasn't my argument. I said it had peaked. Here are the US figures:

Projections show it rising throughout the 21st century for the first world. Which is incredible when you consider we are pushing against the limits of the human body.

shesty

To be honest, kids teach you not to sweat the small stuff.

They live in the here and now.I mean NOW.They do not worry about tomorrow, the weather, or the fact that it is probably not great to eat that chocolate bar at 7am.They are an education in so many ways to live with.And learn from.Furthermore, they will make you live in the now with them, and it is amazing because as adults, we are crap at that.I literally have no time to read news headlines everyday as I am chasing kids, and it is the best thing for my mental health right now.

Otherwise I have heard having children described as having a piece of your heart walking around outside your body.It is in equal parts terrifying and unbelievable.There is literally nothing like it.And as someone said a few posts ago, all those parents of screaming kids that you look pityingly and condescendingly at....they are noticing you, and thinking "ah, when you have kids, you'll understand".

There is just no other way to describe it.

shesty

shesty wrote: »

To be honest, kids teach you not to sweat the small stuff.

They live in the here and now.I mean NOW.They do not worry about tomorrow, the weather, or the fact that it is probably not great to eat that chocolate bar at 7am.They are an education in so many ways to live with.And learn from.Furthermore, they will make you live in the now with them, and it is amazing because as adults, we are crap at that.I literally have no time to read news headlines everyday as I am chasing kids, and it is the best thing for my mental health right now.

Otherwise I have heard having children described as having a piece of your heart walking around outside your body.It is in equal parts terrifying and unbelievable.There is literally nothing like it.And as someone said a few posts ago, all those parents of screaming kids that you look pityingly and condescendingly at....they are noticing you, and thinking "ah, when you have kids, you'll understand".

There is just no other way to describe it.

I remember being a child and I worried. I looked to the past and the future. All before the age of 10. It shouldn't be that way though. Kids should be in the moment, they should be carefree.
It just doesn't always work out like that.

xzanti

I have two boys.

Was it everything I expected? It was completely life changing but in a good way.

I was compelled to become a better version of myself when I had my first.

I'm glad I didn't do it too early though. I was 28 and honestly, looking back, I don't think I was mature enough. But that's just me.

I couldn't imagine not being a mother now.

I suppose to pro/con it:

Cons:
The pain of childbirth (natural or c section) both are painful.
Sleepless nights.
Constant worry that you're doing it wrong.
Constant worry that your baby will get sick/die.
Constantly feeling inadequate or judged on your parenting.
Financial strain.
Possible post natal depression.

Pros:
You instantly feel the need to be the best version of yourself for your child.

You feel a fullness in your heart that wasn't there before (speaking for myself).

You get to watch a flutter on a scan grow into to a whole person and every milestone reminds you that you created this being and how amazing it is.

As a parent you find wonder and a lot of comedy in your own child's mannerisms and behavior. Things you may never have noticed about other people's kids, now become the most entertaining and heartwarming things you've ever seen.

The smell of your baby's hair will give you a feeling you've never had.

Never being lonely when your kids are young. My husband works and I stay at home. The house is always full of laughter/tears/fighting over toys etc. But I always have two little people to have the craic with and go places with. For now.

The above are based on my personal experience. Each to their own.

leanin2019

Haven't read through the 26 pages of this thread but kids seem very time consuming and expensive to me.

Surely there's other things one could do with their time and money if they weren't all in on the idea.

And then of course often it just happens by accident and people go with it love it or hate it

pgj2015

The biggest turn off for me would be the chance that they might turn out to be someone I wouldnt like, I have seen good parents bring up their kids best they can, only for them to become some knacker criminal. or what if they were some lazy hippy who never works a day in their life and wants the government to provide everything for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oyJHZOSHw0

Muscles Schultz

Blaze420 wrote: »

Society or the future never came in to it for us - the mrs wanted a kid or kids since the early days of our relationship but I didn’t really care for it, she also has PCOS (basically a brick wall to any thoughts of that). We tried for 7 years and just earlier this year began discussing whether fostering or adoption would fill the gap for us - and just as the universe always does, found out she is pregnant only a week or 2 after that discussion and baby is now due November

From my side (male), I never had a baby shaped hole in my life or my future - it was simply something that didn’t register anywhere in my plans or my dreams for what the future would be like at any stage of my life. Now that we are due one, I still don’t know what the future holds but it’s a rollercoaster some days of white fear (what the **** are we getting in to? - how am I supposed to “dad”?) and others of pure joy that a new addition to both our bloodlines will be with us in a few months. I also looked deep in myself and realised and that one of the core fears I’ve had for a while without realising was seeing my parents pass away without them ever knowing or seeing a grandchild (I think that’s from stories my mam used to tell me that choked her up when her own Mam died only weeks before my birth).

I don’t know what I’m trying to say to be honest but I wouldn’t call a dead end stop to it at any point - if even one of you have the desire to have one then go for it and don’t stop until all the options are exhausted. Life is too short to put definite answers on anything I think.

Dad ? Is that you?

Love
Future Baba Blaze

Salty

I have always been maternal and imagined my life with children in it. However, I am fast approaching my 28th birthday and the possibility of having a family feels rather far away. I have had a setback in my career and it is going to delay being able to buy a house etc. I will be forking out a lot of money on rent as I have had to move away for a job and this will hamper my ability to save.

Realistically, before we can consider having any babies, we need somewhere to live. And after we find somewhere to live, we need to do a few sums and see if we have enough money left over after mortgage/car/bills etc to make having any babies a sensible choice.

Some days I am completely put off having kids. Childcare and the pressure on parents to continue working as if they are childless seems depressing, expensive and stressful. Other days I get anxious and sad at the idea that the opportunity to have them might pass me by if the universe keeps throwing horrendous life-stalling curve-balls at me.

ED E

Happy to be the uncle that spoils the nieces and nephews. Added bonus that herself doesn't have the signs of child bearing.

dd973

Charles Bukowski said that people get married and have kids as if it's claiming some big victory, or to quote Kierkegaard have them you'll regret it, don't have them, you'll regret it.

People were having them in the middle of the Black Death, the London Blitz, when the banks were sinking in 2008 and when Belfast was on the verge of complete meltdown, suppose it's a leap of faith and having someone to stick you in the ground in years to come.

I'm getting too old to have any and have no one to have them with but I only see any real point in having them if they can have a better life than you.

s1ippy

Salty wrote: »

I have always been maternal and imagined my life with children in it. However, I am fast approaching my 28th birthday and the possibility of having a family feels rather far away. I have had a setback in my career and it is going to delay being able to buy a house etc. I will be forking out a lot of money on rent as I have had to move away for a job and this will hamper my ability to save.

Realistically, before we can consider having any babies, we need somewhere to live. And after we find somewhere to live, we need to do a few sums and see if we have enough money left over after mortgage/car/bills etc to make having any babies a sensible choice.

Some days I am completely put off having kids. Childcare and the pressure on parents to continue working as if they are childless seems depressing, expensive and stressful. Other days I get anxious and sad at the idea that the opportunity to have them might pass me by if the universe keeps throwing horrendous life-stalling curve-balls at me.

This is exactly the same with us. I'd say whatever about a baby boom, loads of people who were hoping to be ready to provide for a family in the next few years who will miss their window.

SusieBlue

I’m single at the moment but I definitely want children, a potential partner not wanting them would be a complete dealbreaker for me.
I’ve known since a young age that I’ve wanted them, when I was a teenager most of my friends found babies gross and boring but I loved looking after my little cousins & neighbours.
When I was 14 (quite a young age, thinking about it now) I got my first summer job minding three kids, aged 11, 6 and 2 yrs old from Monday - Friday and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I’m 28 now and was in a long term relationship that lasted most of my 20’s, and I haven’t met anyone since. But I’ve already decided that if I’m still single by the time I’m 32/33 I’ll be doing it alone and getting IVF.
I even went to a fertility clinic last year to get tested to see how fertile I am, luckily everything looks great but I wanted to be sure for peace of mind.

For me, it’s my #1 goal in life and I don’t imagine I’ll feel fulfilled if it doesn’t happen.
I mean, I’m sure I’d find a way to be happy and live my life but even the idea of never having my own family fills me with sadness.

That’s just me though, I know that not everyone feels like this and I completely respect that.
In the past, the choice wasn’t there, men went to work and women stayed home with the kids.
A depressing, trapped life for both if that wasn’t what either of them truly wanted. Not to mention the effect it had on the children.
I think our new choices and freedoms are excellent progress and that no one should feel pressured either way to live a lifestyle they don’t want.
Hopefully with the next generation it won’t be such a polarising issue and it will just be simply something they do or don’t do.
Our hangover from the lack of choice in the past is what makes both sides of the spectrum defensive about their stance, I think.

spodoinkle

s1ippy wrote: »

We have a few fertile years left

I hope this is true if you do decide to try for kids down the line, don't be fooled by thinking it's easy to conceive, it's not - we have a 3 yr old now and she reminds me of that drunk friend, pure random chat 24/7, its like a comedy show sometimes

mistress_gi

I'm 40 now, I've known since i was 16 i didn't want to have children (kills my mother because she is baby crazy).
I love my life right now and can't imagine getting pregnant and caring for another human for the next 18 years.
Most of my friends have children and i love them and spend a good chunk of time with them. But i also lile going home and leaving them with their parents ahah.
It's easier now that people don't keep asking about having kids, the pressure from society when you're a woman of fertile years is crazy!
I don't think I'll regret my decision, if i do oh well it will be too late
I don't think we're here only to follow our biological destiny, some people want kids, others don't.
Whatever you decided you'll be good!

cgcsb

shesty wrote: »

To be honest, kids teach you not to sweat the small stuff.

They live in the here and now.I mean NOW.They do not worry about tomorrow, the weather, or the fact that it is probably not great to eat that chocolate bar at 7am.They are an education in so many ways to live with.And learn from.Furthermore, they will make you live in the now with them, and it is amazing because as adults, we are crap at that.I literally have no time to read news headlines everyday as I am chasing kids, and it is the best thing for my mental health right now.

Otherwise I have heard having children described as having a piece of your heart walking around outside your body.It is in equal parts terrifying and unbelievable.There is literally nothing like it.And as someone said a few posts ago, all those parents of screaming kids that you look pityingly and condescendingly at....they are noticing you, and thinking "ah, when you have kids, you'll understand".

There is just no other way to describe it.

As a kid I worried about proper recycling and emissions from vehicles. My dad was a lazy boomer type, only cared about increased convenience, he was spoiled as a child, had no discipline, not sure where he got me from. He used to drive his car down to visit his friend who's house was about a 100m from ours. I don't think i'm an atypical millenial.

Jenneke87

Deleted User wrote: »

Why will there be nothing left for him?

The country we live in is very overcrowded (NL). Waiting lists for the bigger cities are easily 10-20 years, sometimes even higher. The prices are unaffordable unless you want to buy together. I can only imagine what rental prices will be by the time he is an adult.

We abolished free education in 2012 so unless your parents were lucky enough to save for your college education you'll have to borrow lots of money so you can study, and you'll end up with a debt anywhere between 10.000-50.000 euro's depending on your study, a debt that will be taken into account when applying for a mortgage, so you can borrow even less, which effectively means you'll have to massively reduce your debt first, by which time you'll be to old to even apply for a mortgage.

Then there is climate change. The climate here is suppose to be moderate. Last year we had a summer that was so hot that temperatures actually reached into the 40's, something no-one has ever seen here. This summer is expected to be equally as hot. We now actually have a shortage of water in the ground, in the freaking Netherlands! due to drought. We all know that the climate is f*cked and the effects are very real. It will be my nephew's generation that will be there to suffer through the very worst of it. Call me pessimistic, but his generation is in for a very rough ride..

cgcsb

Jenneke87 wrote: »

The country we live in is very overcrowded (NL). Waiting lists for the bigger cities are easily 10-20 years, sometimes even higher. The prices are unaffordable unless you want to buy together. I can only imagine what rental prices will be by the time he is an adult.

We abolished free education in 2012 so unless your parents were lucky enough to save for your college education you'll have to borrow lots of money so you can study, and you'll end up with a debt anywhere between 10.000-50.000 euro's depending on your study, a debt that will be taken into account when applying for a mortgage, so you can borrow even less, which effectively means you'll have to massively reduce your debt first, by which time you'll be to old to even apply for a mortgage.

That sounds even grimmer than Ireland. The minute they come to take the free education away here, you might as well pack it in. Child rearing will be for the mega rich only.

Wanderer78

cgcsb wrote:

That sounds even grimmer than Ireland. The minute they come to take the free education away here, you might as well pack it in. Child rearing will be for the mega rich only.

Free education is already long gone

cgcsb

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Free education is already long gone

I mean like in England where they finish college, have £50k debt and get offered a job paying £24k a year, but they have to live in London :pac: honestly just throw in the towel at that point, capitalism failed.

Wanderer78

cgcsb wrote:

I mean like in England where they finish college, have £50k debt and get offered a job paying £24k a year, but they have to live in London honestly just throw in the towel at that point, capitalism failed.

Neoliberalism is failing, capitalism is just fine

joe40

cgcsb wrote: »

I mean like in England where they finish college, have £50k debt and get offered a job paying £24k a year, but they have to live in London :pac: honestly just throw in the towel at that point, capitalism failed.

As far as I know in England you only pay back student loans when earning over a certain limit, and then it is a % of salary.
I could be corrected on this.

c.p.w.g.w

joe40 wrote: »

As far as I know in England you only pay back student loans when earning over a certain limit, and then it is a % of salary.
I could be corrected on this.

Is it a percentage of gross or net...

Lillyfae

Jenneke87 wrote: »

The country we live in is very overcrowded (NL). Waiting lists for the bigger cities are easily 10-20 years, sometimes even higher. The prices are unaffordable unless you want to buy together. I can only imagine what rental prices will be by the time he is an adult.

We abolished free education in 2012 so unless your parents were lucky enough to save for your college education you'll have to borrow lots of money so you can study, and you'll end up with a debt anywhere between 10.000-50.000 euro's depending on your study, a debt that will be taken into account when applying for a mortgage, so you can borrow even less, which effectively means you'll have to massively reduce your debt first, by which time you'll be to old to even apply for a mortgage.

Then there is climate change. The climate here is suppose to be moderate. Last year we had a summer that was so hot that temperatures actually reached into the 40's, something no-one has ever seen here. This summer is expected to be equally as hot. We now actually have a shortage of water in the ground, in the freaking Netherlands! due to drought. We all know that the climate is f*cked and the effects are very real. It will be my nephew's generation that will be there to suffer through the very worst of it. Call me pessimistic, but his generation is in for a very rough ride..

The loan is interest free, nobody has to take it up. Free public transport is also provided so not entirely necessary to get a loan if people are living within an hour’s commute of the Uni, all of which are well connected. The fees are half of what is due to Irish universities. You can do 2 degrees at the same time and still pay the same fees. There is also a bigger hourly commitment so you can earn a bachelor’s in 3 years and a master’s in another 1. 4 years total for a masters. 3 years on top of that you would be fully funded @ €37,500pa for a PhD.

The waiting lists you speak of are for social housing, possibly in Amsterdam, although I’d like to see a source for that. Most lists aren’t that long and nothing is stopping anyone from privately renting. Buying can be trickier because a permanent contract is necessary. Not impossible in the least though.

I agree though, the week of 40 degrees last year was no joke in the city. But I’d happily live in NL over any other place in the world, great little country.

Fourier

Jenneke87 wrote: »

This summer is expected to be equally as hot. We now actually have a shortage of water in the ground, in the freaking Netherlands! due to drought. We all know that the climate is f*cked and the effects are very real. It will be my nephew's generation that will be there to suffer through the very worst of it. Call me pessimistic, but his generation is in for a very rough ride..

There were more severe droughts in the Netherlands at least four times this century not related to climate change.

Again climate change is happening, but its actual effects need to be isolated. These droughts are not purely or even mostly a function of it. Lillyfae has covered other stuff.

cgcsb

I read somewhere, can't find it now, that in England, it cost the state almost as much to administer the student loans system, deal with arrears, bring in private restructuring consultants etc. than it would to just have a government funded 3rd level educational system. Moreover the wider economic benefits (a population with less personal debt and more spending power) would be 2 or 3 times better for the economy than the present system.

It reminded me of the clamouring to privatise railways to 'save costs'. Net result is the state pays for the infrastructure and subsidises unprofitable routes anyway, Richard Branson makes off with the farebox revenue and customers pay 4 or 5 times the average European train ticket price.

We've adopted this silly thinking here when you look at waste collection. Privatise it to save costs they said. Result is 3 or 4 companies sending trucks down the same streets lifting bins on different days. Some of them, like greyhound, collect all three bins with the same truck, dump the combined waste illegally in Donegal and we can't bring any enforcement action against them because councils no longer have the capacity to replace the service at short notice.

Thelonious Monk

Jenneke87 wrote: »

The country we live in is very overcrowded (NL)of it... Call me pessimistic, but his generation is in for a very rough ride..

Yeah I have a good friend in Arnhem who sounds genuinely worried about the lack of rain there. I remember last summer it went over 40c in Arnhem too, that's crazy.

The One Doctor

s1ippy wrote: »

I feel like this thread is probably going to be closed quite quickly but it's worth a shot to get some insight. It's not suited to the parenting forum but it is certainly inspired by the pregnancy one, where I know it would not be allowed. I hope it's allowed to be discussed as it's something which has been weighing heavily on me for years.

For a very long time now my partner and I have been seriously considering whether or not we will have children. We are erring on the side of not, because we feel that society is absolute squalor and couldn't reconcile bringing a child into it. We have a few fertile years left and would be extremely amenable to fostering down the line so will continue to mull it over, at least until we purchase a house.

- To people who are sure they aren't having children, what are your reasons?

- To people who want children, I'd love to know your secret... what is the light at the end of tunnel that you see for the next generation?

- To people who already have children, was it everything you were expecting or were there a lot of surprises?

It's a fraught issue and I don't want to offend anyone but I just got off the phone with a good friend who was telling me about her postnatal depression and far from being irrational it sounded like she had a huge amount of very well-founded regrets that all suffocated her after she had already gone the entire way to bringing a new life into the world. She's managing well at the moment but she'll never be the same after it.

On the bright side, I know at least two children alive now who seem to be doing mostly ok.

Wind up merchant.