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Do you believe in UFOs & flying saucers ?

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Well he did come up with the parachute.

    2-da-vinci-parachute-1485-science-source.jpg

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 548 ✭✭✭ JasonStatham


    bangkok wrote: »
    1976 Tehran

    Valentich disapperance

    Rendelsham forrest incident

    Japan Air lines flight incident

    Varginha incident Brazil

    Shag Harbour incident

    Phoneix Lights

    Roswell

    Travis Walton

    O Hare International airport incident


    so many more incidents they are just off the top of my head

    I read about the Phoenix Lights sightings. Very bizarre altogether...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,997 ✭✭✭ Ipso


    bangkok wrote: »
    1976 Tehran

    Valentich disapperance

    Rendelsham forrest incident

    Japan Air lines flight incident

    Varginha incident Brazil

    Shag Harbour incident

    Phoneix Lights

    Roswell

    Travis Walton

    O Hare International airport incident


    so many more incidents they are just off the top of my head

    Roswell is nonsense, man who was reading books on new flying saucer phenomenon says weather balloon is UFO, changes the story the next day. All is forgotten about until 30 years later when stories start to emerge to coincide with a book. More books follow with each one trying to out do the other; more than one crash site, bodies recovered etc
    Something like 11 potential crash sites have been put forward by all the witnesses. You's think they'd all agree on where it happened.
    https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4079


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Leonardo DaVinci designed such a device from observing how bats fly (they have to take off from some height). I think the key hang up was; the carbon fibre lightweight frame of such modern devices wasn't around at the time. A timber framed glider would either be to heavy or would break from the weight of a person if the sections were thin enough (light enough) to fly.

    If Renaissance Europeans had access to bamboo in plentiful amounts, I think they would have developed gliders at that time. Assuming a practical military or transport application could be found for them. Asian cultures had not developed glass at that point making telescopes and therefore exploration by navigating the stars impractical.


    Also the Asians were flying kites for centuries and those Chinese lanterns too.


    Attaching a mouse to the kite probably wouldn't have made much difference to it's performance. Scale it up to carry a light (and brave) human.
    I know that hindsight is 20/20 but if medieval printing presses and automatons and windmills could be de rigeur then how come the hang-glider took so long.?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    cgcsb wrote: »
    If Renaissance Europeans had access to bamboo in plentiful amounts, I think they would have developed gliders at that time. Assuming a practical military or transport application could be found for them. Asian cultures had not developed glass at that point making telescopes and therefore exploration by navigating the stars impractical.
    Well kinda. The Asians had glass but it wasn't very good quality and that was down to another quirk of fate, they had porcelain of very high quality and had it for ages so glass was left on the to do list or ignored. Europe had much less fine ceramics so glass had gotten a leg up from early on.

    These quirks of fate can impact massively on development. Take the Chinese again. They had gunpowder, the compass, blast furnaces, the ships rudder, paper, printing long before Europeans, but didn't do nearly so much with any of them. Why? Well first off they were already had an empire so weren't really looking to build one, rather defend what they had. Europe after Rome fell was a bunch of heavily competitive nation states looking to build another Rome(while being somewhat cohesive and connected by a common faith), so after internal empire building was a dead loss they looked outwards. And because of this internal competition for advantage innovations were jumped upon, then the guys next door innovated on that and so on. It was a hothouse for it.

    Secondly China had developed a massive bureaucracy over a thousand and more years old, originally built around their truly gargantuan irrigation and agricultural schemes. This bureaucracy and the associated social strata was very strict and social mobility was low, so innovating wouldn't tend to get you cash or social cache. In Europe, and it had been like this for a very long time, you invented a better mousetrap you got the cash and the social cache and again because of its many nation states if your own didn't appreciate your mousetrap the country next door might. Which again plugged into the internal competition.

    Thirdly philosophy and religion played a part. In Europe the notion that the universe was a logical and divisible thing made by a logical god(s) understandable to humans who were lords over lesser nature meant that humans could look at it more closely and understand it and turn it to it's needs. Even in early Greek times we can see this. Whereas the eastern notion of a reed bends with the wind, with nature, the Greeks sought to conquer nature to their own purpose. If the wind broke the reed, you don't go off and sit on a mountain going OMMMM, you build a better stronger fecking reed to resist the wind.

    And all of those Chinese ideas passed through the Arab world before they got to Europe and again did little in the region and again because of local culture. Take printing. Arab scribes were highly thought of and thought highly of themselves so printing was rejected hard by them and all "right thinking" men. To the degree that the first printed Quran was a small run in 16th century Italy, another in 18th century Russia and the one around today is based off the first truly large print run and in a Muslim nation in Egypt in the 1920's. In Europe the bible was the first thing to be printed pretty much and sold like hot cakes, which of course then had people read it from cover to cover, discover errors of faith by the church and then you get the reformation which was driven by the printing press, which in turn had people questioning absolutes and printing their answers and cue more internal competition and innovation and the age of enlightenment.

    Basically the tiniest things can have huge effects and where these things are created or move to can have equally huge effects.

    Plus you need your ducks in a row to come together for things to happen. So if Europe had bamboo, then maybe flight would have taken off(sorry) or maybe not. The need has to be there, or a very wealthy patron who has the horn for it, who then finds a Leo DaVinci to get it working(if you can keep the bugger interested for long enough...). And what need would there be then? Telescopes gave you observation from a distance without faffing about dangerously in the air. Actually telescopes really get their initial popularity not because of observation of the heavens or anything so lofty, or because of the military considerations, but because Galileo had a brainwave for making a bit of spare cash, as you do, and developed better ones and sold them to Italian merchants to spot goods ships coming in ahead of their competitors so they could better fix the prices. Could you predict that ahead of time? Or today, if we didn't know that?

    What you know is a product of the truth of your time and that truth can be hard to shift for a new one. A philosopher(whose name escapes) noted this in a conversation with his students who remarked that people must have been stupid back then to think the sun went around the Earth. His reply was would a sunset have looked any different to them? Some of the greatest minds in history believing the sun did orbit the earth came up with fantastically complex maths and models to prove it did, so it did. Until it didn't.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ ShatterAlan


    bangkok wrote: »
    1976 Tehran

    Valentich disapperance

    Rendelsham forrest incident

    Japan Air lines flight incident

    Varginha incident Brazil

    Shag Harbour incident

    Phoneix Lights

    Roswell

    Travis Walton

    O Hare International airport incident


    so many more incidents they are just off the top of my head


    OK many of these incidents are based on witnesses' accounts. And that's fine.



    What's your take on the witnesses on the ground in Ukraine who saw a jet fighter climbing in a shark-on-seal maneuvre to attack flight MH-17?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭ bangkok


    OK many of these incidents are based on witnesses' accounts. And that's fine.



    What's your take on the witnesses on the ground in Ukraine who saw a jet fighter climbing in a shark-on-seal maneuvre to attack flight MH-17?

    Many of those accounts were witnessed by high up personel both on radar and visual. Read up on the tehran indicent or the japan airlines incident. Even randelsham forrest, probably even bigger than roswell. The ohare international airport ufo sighting was spotted by 12 pilots yet didnt even show up radar


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    here's what I think about UFO's and same said abductions ok.

    Assume the sea is an inner space and all above it is outer spare to a shark.
    Suddenly he's swimming along and he's jolted up, tagged and returned before he knows what's happening. This is done so we can study sharks. They have drive and instincts where humans have intelligence, morality, ethics etc!!!

    I'm sure when sharks see a boat, they cannot understand what it is but they see a shape, ripples etc. This is how I see us, is it so hard to consider UFO's are much the same..Our outer space is as vast in context. People who have been abducted may well be sharks to higher intelligence, tagged and studied.

    It's how I kinda see it, I;m no tin foil hat guy though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    And the para-glider that doesn't have a frame, just a canopy from which is suspended a fabric seat that you park your arse in and float about the hillside?

    Depends on plastic fibres to work. Also today is a for sure way to die.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Well kinda. The Asians had glass but it wasn't very good quality and that was down to another quirk of fate, they had porcelain of very high quality and had it for ages so glass was left on the to do list or ignored. Europe had much less fine ceramics so glass had gotten a leg up from early on.

    These quirks of fate can impact massively on development. Take the Chinese again. They had gunpowder, the compass, blast furnaces, the ships rudder, paper, printing long before Europeans, but didn't do nearly so much with any of them. Why? Well first off they were already had an empire so weren't really looking to build one, rather defend what they had. Europe after Rome fell was a bunch of heavily competitive nation states looking to build another Rome(while being somewhat cohesive and connected by a common faith), so after internal empire building was a dead loss they looked outwards. And because of this internal competition for advantage innovations were jumped upon, then the guys next door innovated on that and so on. It was a hothouse for it.

    Secondly China had developed a massive bureaucracy over a thousand and more years old, originally built around their truly gargantuan irrigation and agricultural schemes. This bureaucracy and the associated social strata was very strict and social mobility was low, so innovating wouldn't tend to get you cash or social cache. In Europe, and it had been like this for a very long time, you invented a better mousetrap you got the cash and the social cache and again because of its many nation states if your own didn't appreciate your mousetrap the country next door might. Which again plugged into the internal competition.

    Thirdly philosophy and religion played a part. In Europe the notion that the universe was a logical and divisible thing made by a logical god(s) understandable to humans who were lords over lesser nature meant that humans could look at it more closely and understand it and turn it to it's needs. Even in early Greek times we can see this. Whereas the eastern notion of a reed bends with the wind, with nature, the Greeks sought to conquer nature to their own purpose. If the wind broke the reed, you don't go off and sit on a mountain going OMMMM, you build a better stronger fecking reed to resist the wind.

    And all of those Chinese ideas passed through the Arab world before they got to Europe and again did little in the region and again because of local culture. Take printing. Arab scribes were highly thought of and thought highly of themselves so printing was rejected hard by them and all "right thinking" men. To the degree that the first printed Quran was a small run in 16th century Italy, another in 18th century Russia and the one around today is based off the first truly large print run and in a Muslim nation in Egypt in the 1920's. In Europe the bible was the first thing to be printed pretty much and sold like hot cakes, which of course then had people read it from cover to cover, discover errors of faith by the church and then you get the reformation which was driven by the printing press, which in turn had people questioning absolutes and printing their answers and cue more internal competition and innovation and the age of enlightenment.

    Basically the tiniest things can have huge effects and where these things are created or move to can have equally huge effects.

    Plus you need your ducks in a row to come together for things to happen. So if Europe had bamboo, then maybe flight would have taken off(sorry) or maybe not. The need has to be there, or a very wealthy patron who has the horn for it, who then finds a Leo DaVinci to get it working(if you can keep the bugger interested for long enough...). And what need would there be then? Telescopes gave you observation from a distance without faffing about dangerously in the air. Actually telescopes really get their initial popularity not because of observation of the heavens or anything so lofty, or because of the military considerations, but because Galileo had a brainwave for making a bit of spare cash, as you do, and developed better ones and sold them to Italian merchants to spot goods ships coming in ahead of their competitors so they could better fix the prices. Could you predict that ahead of time? Or today, if we didn't know that?

    What you know is a product of the truth of your time and that truth can be hard to shift for a new one. A philosopher(whose name escapes) noted this in a conversation with his students who remarked that people must have been stupid back then to think the sun went around the Earth. His reply was would a sunset have looked any different to them? Some of the greatest minds in history believing the sun did orbit the earth came up with fantastically complex maths and models to prove it did, so it did. Until it didn't.

    Thanks for this reply. As we can see on earth tiny events or circumstances of geography have massive impacts on development of societies. There are obviously the development of societies on other planners have their own variables. I'm a planned with less gravity bipeds could have developed flight much earlier for example.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭ kingtiger


    I read about the Phoenix Lights sightings. Very bizarre altogether...

    ah here, they were definitely flares


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,332 ✭✭✭ TheIrishGrover


    Why does practically everyone imagine an alien life form, as being more intelligent that us humans?

    Isn't it just as plausible, if such aliens do exist, that they could be less intelligent than us or perhaps just on par with us in terms of advancement?

    I think it's quite possible, that we could discover life on another planet in the next 100 years... but we may have to help these aliens to reach our level of intelligence and expertise.

    Hence the word many and not all


  • Registered Users Posts: 959 ✭✭✭ Psychlops


    I believe they exist, What I dont get is people that say they dont, we can not be the only planet in the vastness of Space to have life, not too hot & not too cold where we are, yet who is to say they have to be near a Star or in a goldilocks zone like we are, maybe they thrive in the extreme heat or extreme cold of where they are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,997 ✭✭✭ Ipso


    If life elsewhere got to an advanced stage of technology, their interaction with us would be less Ancient Aliens/X-Files and more like Rendezvous with Rama.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭ Lewis_Benson


    Have you every seen an unidentified flying object?
    !

    No.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭ bangkok


    kingtiger wrote: »
    ah here, they were definitely flares

    Shortly after the lights, Arizona Governor Fife Symington III held a press conference, stating that "they found who was responsible". He proceeded to make light of the situation by bringing his aide on stage dressed in an alien costume. (Dateline, NBC). But in March 2007, Symington said that he had witnessed one of the "crafts of unknown origin" during the 1997 event, although he did not go public with the information.[26][27][28][29] In an interview with The Daily Courier in Prescott, Arizona, Symington said, "I'm a pilot and I know just about every machine that flies. It was bigger than anything that I've ever seen. It remains a great mystery. Other people saw it, responsible people. I don't know why people would ridicule it".[30] Symington had earlier said, "It was enormous and inexplicable. Who knows where it came from? A lot of people saw it, and I saw it too. It was dramatic. And it couldn't have been flares because it was too symmetrical. It had a geometric outline, a constant shape.[31]

    Symington also noted that he requested information from the commander of Luke Air Force Base, the general of the National Guard, and the head of the Department of Public Safety. But none of the officials he contacted had an answer for what had happened, and were also perplexed.[31] Later, he responded to an Air Force explanation that the lights were flares: "As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man made object I'd ever seen. And it was certainly not high-altitude flares because flares don't fly in formation".[3] In an episode of the television show UFO Hunters called "The Arizona Lights", Symington said that he contacted[when?] the military asking what the lights were. The response was "no comment". He pointed out that he was the governor of Arizona at the time, not just some ordinary civilian.[32]

    Frances Barwood, the 1997 Phoenix city councilwoman who launched an investigation into the event, said that of the over 700 witnesses she interviewed, "The government never interviewed even one


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ ArchXStanton


    They seem to have been witnessed for millennia. Christopher Columbus wrote something about seeing a craft. The monks in Ireland saw something strange in the sky in the 1400’s. In WWII all the reports from pilots about the 'Foo Fighters'.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭ kingtiger


    bangkok wrote: »

    Symington also noted that he requested information from the commander of Luke Air Force Base, the general of the National Guard, and the head of the Department of Public Safety. But none of the officials he contacted had an answer for what had happened, and were also perplexed.[31] Later, he responded to an Air Force explanation that the lights were flares: "As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man made object I'd ever seen"

    Frances Barwood, the 1997 Phoenix city councilwoman who launched an investigation into the event, said that of the over 700 witnesses she interviewed, "The government never interviewed even one

    the US Air Force said that a squadron of A10 Warthog aircraft was dropping flares over the area that night as part of a training exercise and they were also flying in formation with night illumination


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 692 ✭✭✭ unhappys10


    kingtiger wrote: »
    the US Air Force said that a squadron of A10 Warthog aircraft was dropping flares over the area that night as part of a training exercise and they were also flying in formation with night illumination

    Oh well if they said that, case closed...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭ kingtiger


    unhappys10 wrote: »
    Oh well if they said that, case closed...

    They have logs of visiting aircraft and confirmed that the Maryland Air National Guard had taken part in a formation exercise that night where aircraft peeled off one or two at a time to drop flares


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭ Rhys Essien


    Only heard about this case recently. Must be the biggest mass sighting case in Europe. Hovering above a stadium of 10k people in 1954.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29342407


  • Registered Users Posts: 959 ✭✭✭ Psychlops


    The Belgian Wave was interesting, F16 fighter jets from the Belgian Air Force scrambled to intercept too.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_UFO_wave


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,521 ✭✭✭✭ Arghus


    I believe in intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, but I don't believe they've come anywhere near us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭ Silas Steep Gull


    Psychlops wrote: »
    The Belgian Wave was interesting, F16 fighter jets from the Belgian Air Force scrambled to intercept too.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_UFO_wave
    Seen a couple of these around 1989/90, only realised recently they were part of a larger sighting elsewhere in Europe.

    Two silent triangle shapes, lights on each corner (all non-flashing) moving very slowly, and silently as a pair towards the Irish Sea.

    Around the same time, local Farmers on the coast complained about their livestock being 'interfered' with. Essentially cows being turned inside out, then internal organs removed, along with tounges and (pardon the French).. their buttholes also removed. ...Your guess is as good as mine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 959 ✭✭✭ Psychlops


    I read this, very good & interesting, multiple witnesses.


    https://www.booktopia.com.au/the-zanfretta-case-rino-di-stefano/book/9781505650099.html





    In the night between Wednesday 6 and Thursday 7 of December 1978, the security guard Pier Fortunato Zanfretta of the Institute of Private Security Val Bisagno in Genoa, Italy, was found in a state of shock and terror-stricken near the country house Casa Nostra (Our House) placed in Marzano of Torriglia, a village up in the hills of Genoa.


    When he woke up, Zanfretta told shaking that he saw "a very big alien, three meters (118.11 inches) tall, with a fat and corrugated gray skin, like it was a flabby suit," who few minutes later fly away "aboard a giant bright light triangular shaped, with small little lights of different colors in the upper side." During regressive hypnosis, the night adventure was borne out by the man, and he told was dragged inside the "spaceship" where four monstrous aliens examined him in great details. An investigation by Carabinieri, the Italian military police, verified that 52 people saw a very big flying bright saucer at that time in the Torriglia sky.



    Besides, in the meadow where the others' security guards found Zanfretta, Carabinieri found out a three meters mark, horseshoe shaped. The people were still thinking to that mysterious encounter of the third kind, that twenty days later it happened again. This time Carabinieri found out footprints 50 centimeters long (19.69 inches) near the security guard's car. The Zanfretta case was just beginning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,815 ✭✭✭✭ Galwayguy35


    The universe is huge so its probable life exists on some of the planets, don't think any of us will know the answer though before we end up as worm food as I doubt they will just show up like on Independance Day.

    But ya never know stranger things have happened.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭ MadYaker




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 84,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    In a world of smart phone proliferation, the number of UFO reports seems to be shrinking.

    You would expect that more people should be capturing UFOs.

    That being said, we are one planet in a universe of countless planets. Can we really be the only form of life?

    settled.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭ Rhys Essien


    There’s supposed to be a big announcement coming in the New York Times this week about the US government being in possession of material/wreckage from a UFO. We’ll wait and see.

    Anyway another interesting case here from Canada in 1996.

    https://youtu.be/Rx5YprfueAQ


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,997 ✭✭✭ Ipso


    There’s supposed to be a big announcement coming in the New York Times this week about the US government being in possession of material/wreckage from a UFO. We’ll wait and see.

    Anyway another interesting case here from Canada in 1996.

    https://youtu.be/Rx5YprfueAQ

    Leslie Kean seems to be the NYT favorite for these kinds of stories. She covered a lot of debunked stuff in the past.
    https://badufos.blogspot.com/2020/07/ufo-disclosure-coming-next-week-suggest.html?m=1


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