Strava changes

buffalo

https://www.strava.com/subscription/from-our-founders

starting today, a few of our free features that are especially complex and expensive to maintain, like segment leaderboards, will become subscription features.

:eek: Looks like I'll be renewing my lapsed subscription.

dahat

Only reason I've got premium is that I can use phone credit via 3pay. As I've a few other bike related subs I'd bin Strava first admittedly.

magicbastarder

i'm surprised they left the free version with so many functions for so long. i ponied up for it, because i reckoned it was fair to pay for something i find useful, but my actual use of strava has barely changed as a result.

bikedude

Or it will reduce the use of Strava, we will go back to be out for spins and not worry about it.

Would say Today’s leaderboard and overall was a nice hook to keep people engaged in the app.

Wishbone Ash

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm surprised they left the free version with so many functions for so long.]...

I could never understand that either. There was so much with the free version that there was little incentive to subscribe to the paid version.

CramCycle

So what stays with the free version? Can you see your time on a segment? I was tempted to subscribe but when lockdown occured I choose Zwift over it. As for if I'd subscribe after all this is over, maybe but I kind of lost interest when they don't appoint local operators to delete or correct questionable data. If that came in I might but considering the numbers of cheaters, I am happy out with the free version if I can just track my own time on segments.

magicbastarder

bikedude wrote: »

Or it will reduce the use of Strava, we will go back to be out for spins and not worry about it.

Would say Today’s leaderboard and overall was a nice hook to keep people engaged in the app.

not much good for strava if people were engaged in the app but not paying for it?

i'm not a dba, but it must be some task when someone creates a new segment on strava, for them to then had to go back and calculate everyone who had cycled that segment before (going back maybe 10 years) to calculate a new leaderboard. granted, it certainly doesn't happen instantly, but the fact it's possible is impressive.

Hurrache

It's impressive, but I'd say automated with little, if any, human interaction when new segments are created.

I'd reckon most man hours are spent on development and investigation of flagged segments etc

Takca

Its more then just leader boards not working if you don't pay,
It looks like pretty much every 3rd party app out there that does
anything with leader boards will also stop working, even if you are a paid subscriber.

dcrainmaker has more info here
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2020/05/strava-cuts-off-leaderboard-for-free-users-reduces-3rd-party-apps-for-all-and-more.html

circular flexing

Hurrache wrote: »

It's impressive, but I'd say automated with little, if any, human interaction when new segments are created.

I'd reckon most man hours are spent on development and investigation of flagged segments etc

Leaderboards can be pretty resource intensive, either have to have some level of caching (costs $$$) or have the hardware such that queires are returned in a reasonable time ($$$). Efficiently programming leaderboards is a hard task.

Cee-Jay-Cee

magicbastarder wrote: »

not much good for strava if people were engaged in the app but not paying for it?

i'm not a dba, but it must be some task when someone creates a new segment on strava, for them to then had to go back and calculate everyone who had cycled that segment before (going back maybe 10 years) to calculate a new leaderboard. granted, it certainly doesn't happen instantly, but the fact it's possible is impressive.

It’s done automatically and fairly quickly. It’s not like there is someone physically checking through previous segment times to place your time. A computer program does it and it’ll appear within an hour or less usually.

magicbastarder

i know, but searching back through ten years worth of data and matching that segment to everyone who's ever ridden it and each time they've ridden it, is impressive.

Cookie_Monster

That's a bit ****. It's not like they're not making a fortune selling the data to companies and councils as it is

retalivity

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know, but searching back through ten years worth of data and matching that segment to everyone who's ever ridden it and each time they've ridden it, is impressive.

It's not really...its only ever incremental as each day passes - the leaderboards for existing segments would have been built, indexed and partitioned accordingly when they were created, and are only ever being appended to (if using traditional RDBMS tech) - if they are using a graph db or other mmp architecture it would be faster again.

When you create a new segment, you can see that it starts building the leaderboard backwards in time after a few minutes, refresh the leaderboard every 5 mins and you see older times being added to it and your own time gradually falling down... That's where the donkey work is done. The positions are then created on the fly whenever someone queries the db/checks a segment, which should be fast enough.

/work in data architecture

magicbastarder

ah yeah, i know it's *technically* perfectly reasonable, i kinda mean 'isn't it great that we've reached a point where this is routine and expected'. that i could create a segment and realise that i managed to cycle it at 42km/h on my birthday eight years ago.

I was a subscriber in the past I guess I will have to pony up again.

It's only the price of a pint every month. Well worth it.

mamax

Been using it for years and was summit but while out for a year after surgery 2 years ago I realised when I got back on the bike I didn't use those so called extra features so they can add all the features they want I won't be paying for something I don't need

Macy0161

Realistically if Wahoo/ Garmin/ Zwift all reciprocated, and limited the data they allowed Strava to take, where would that leave them?

Strava are social media - no one pays for social media, whether that's fair or not.

I was a subscriber, think it was Summit, until they decided my data was theirs and stopped allowing Relive to access my data. Anyway, I wouldn't be paying annual upfront, as it seems they're always messing with the subscription model, which to me doesn't seem to indicate a sound financial plan - they seem to be grapsing at different plans to make money.

I'm not that interested in the segments, and for routing there's better options out there - definitely better if you were going to pay for just the routing. I've tried using routing in strava, but it's píss poor compared to ridewithgps.

CramCycle

I got two KOMs on the ride in this morning, nothing else seems to have changed so I obviously used very little or it will be tomorrow when they make all the changes?

Thinly veiled, I got two KOMs post

On a serious note, when you subscribe, can you re report rides that are marked as solved. For the price of it, I'd do that. I left my GPS on in the car before and was happy someone reported it but some people seem to ignore it, others even apparently driving around to get KOMs. It has put me off Strava some what as they don't police it, which I understand would cost more unless they hired local volunteers or reps. I'd pay if I could report rides that are doing 80kmph one way, stopping in Dunnes and then doing 80kmph in the opposite direction.

Hurrache

Macy0161 wrote: »

Strava are social media - no one pays for social media, whether that's fair or not.

Users are hammered with ads and spam for all sorts of crap, you aren't in Strava, which would be the alternative.

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

On a serious note, when you subscribe, can you re report rides that are marked as solved.

no, i tried to report one but got a message saying you can't report a ride that had been flagged and allowed stand.
i was toying of putting in a feature request to be able to block riders as a way around this.
FWIW, it's this one, someone doing the steep part of newtownpark avenue at a claimed 64km/h, at the end of a ride with some decent climbing.

https://www.strava.com/segments/17828072

magicbastarder

they've also clarified that their new auto-detection capability is *not* retroactive.
i assume what they're looking for is something like a time on a segment that has a decent amount of traffic, that's well outside the cluster of times you'd usually see at the top of a leaderboard; also would be curious if they'd be more likely to flag it if the rider has no or few KOMs prior to that.

Macy0161

Hurrache wrote: »

Users are hammered with ads and spam for all sorts of crap, you aren't in Strava, which would be the alternative.

eh, "challenges" in strava...

greendom

Macy0161 wrote: »

Realistically if Wahoo/ Garmin/ Zwift all reciprocated, and limited the data they allowed Strava to take, where would that leave them?

Strava are social media - no one pays for social media, whether that's fair or not.

I was a subscriber, think it was Summit, until they decided my data was theirs and stopped allowing Relive to access my data. Anyway, I wouldn't be paying annual upfront, as it seems they're always messing with the subscription model, which to me doesn't seem to indicate a sound financial plan - they seem to be grapsing at different plans to make money.

I'm not that interested in the segments, and for routing there's better options out there - definitely better if you were going to pay for just the routing. I've tried using routing in strava, but it's píss poor compared to ridewithgps.

Always worth reminding that if you're not paying for social media, you are the product

Macy0161

greendom wrote: »

Always worth reminding that if you're not paying for social media, you are the product

I'm comfortable with that. Like I said, I did pay and they still took me as a product, so I unsubscribed.

ED E

greendom wrote: »

Always worth reminding that if you're not paying for social media, you are the product

Even if you pay you're still part of the data product Strava offer to third parties.



TBH Strava is doing VERY little for your €60pa. Thats the same price as backblaze which will backup 20TB from one machine if you want, something that has a real hosting cost. Storage per user is negligible, bandwidth is TINY (a few points back and forth, everything's rendered in the client) bar a couple images, the graphing involved in segment matching was computationally hard in 1992 - its easy now.

If you're looking for a training product then I don't think Strava is what anyone serious opts for. If you're looking for a social network then the benefit is your mates are on it. Right now(covid aside) if I go on a ride with 11 others 5-8 will be on Strava. Very rare more than 1 has summit. If it loses critical mass it'll go the way of Bebo and Google+. Honestly priming themselves for Garmin to spin something up and subvent it with device sales. Wahoo, while great, are still miniscule compared to Wahoo.

Daroxtar

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, i tried to report one but got a message saying you can't report a ride that had been flagged and allowed stand.
i was toying of putting in a feature request to be able to block riders as a way around this.
FWIW, it's this one, someone doing the steep part of newtownpark avenue at a claimed 64km/h, at the end of a ride with some decent climbing.

https://www.strava.com/segments/17828072

Haha, that's gas, the top 5 and majority of the top 10 are dodgy or the area is full of world class athletes!!

CramCycle

ED E wrote: »

Wahoo, while great, are still miniscule compared to Wahoo.

Mind Blown

magicbastarder

Daroxtar wrote: »

Haha, that's gas, the top 5 and majority of the top 10 are dodgy or the area is full of world class athletes!!

check out the activity on number 2. he went from doing 8km/h on some segments to 70km/h on a minor downhill. looks like a classic bike on the car job.

MojoMaker

In comparison the women's leaderboard looks quite sensible, is it just the men that are taking the pi$$?

ED E

CramCycle wrote: »

Mind Blown

Derp. Working nights will do that to you

magicbastarder

i think what sometimes happens, especially on the southside, is that lads head up to the mountains on their fancy all-terrain BMX thingys, get back to the car, strap them on, and drive home, having forgotten to stop the GPS.

daragh_

Daroxtar wrote: »

Haha, that's gas, the top 5 and majority of the top 10 are dodgy or the area is full of world class athletes!!

Top 2 are total BS but I know a good few of the riders in the top 20 (as that road is close to me) and those times are fairly accurate.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

i think what sometimes happens, especially on the southside, is that lads head up to the mountains on their fancy all-terrain BMX thingys, get back to the car, strap them on, and drive home, having forgotten to stop the GPS.

We should probably set up a sub forum for them :pac:

I just think its funny that they get reported and then nothing happens, rider says its grand, job done.

ED E

Which poster set a load of KOMs in the back of an ambo? Probably a few have but I think it was a mod (not necessarily a cycling mod).

Edit: Was Beasty

"Maybe he was trying to take some of RobFowl's KOMs down the M1. Not sure he would get one down that stretch though, as I had the Garmin in the ambulance when being transported to the Beaumont in that direction after my crash 5 years ago..."

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

I just think its funny that they get reported and then nothing happens, rider says its grand, job done.

that's the problem, how are they to tell from an office in san fran or wherever, that a ride is bogus? they're going to get some wrong no matter what, whether too strict or too lenient, or more likely both.
which is why i reckon my idea of the user choosing to hide riders could work, it solves the immediate issue for the user without much work for strava.

that said, i can see spats developing over who is the 'true' KOM, if i look like i have one in my view, and you see you have it in your view. but that's possibly less of an issue than what we see today.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's the problem, how are they to tell from an office in san fran or wherever, that a ride is bogus? they're going to get some wrong no matter what, whether too strict or too lenient, or more likely both.
which is why i reckon my idea of the user choosing to hide riders could work, it solves the immediate issue for the user without much work for strava.

that said, i can see spats developing over who is the 'true' KOM, if i look like i have one in my view, and you see you have it in your view. but that's possibly less of an issue than what we see today.

This is why a local rep makes sense, I imagine you'd have people happy to do it for their area, same as you have on lots of social media sites. The system is automated, so no one in an office looks at it. You report it, it is taken off the leader board. The rider can then edit it, delete it or tick a box and say its OK, and then it is resolved and if reported again, you get a "this has been resolved" message. There is no work for Strava at the minute. Not all fakes are easy to see, I missed one of mine after I was picked up by my partner and left it turned on, took me awhile to realise what had happened as I hadn't uploaded it for a week but traffic was so busy that it wasn't unbelievable. It wsa when I looked at my HR I seen the issue.

Someone who can barely break 20kmph suddenly spiking 80kmph between lights (in a 50kmph zone by the way) is easy to see, or tipping along the M50 etc.

CramCycle

This said if your drafting someone and you have no HR monitor on, the estimated power thing is hilarious. I apparently done north of 1000watts for 500m this morning, whereas I was just going downhill with a tailwind.

buffalo

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's the problem, how are they to tell from an office in san fran or wherever, that a ride is bogus? they're going to get some wrong no matter what, whether too strict or too lenient, or more likely both.
which is why i reckon my idea of the user choosing to hide riders could work, it solves the immediate issue for the user without much work for strava.

that said, i can see spats developing over who is the 'true' KOM, if i look like i have one in my view, and you see you have it in your view. but that's possibly less of an issue than what we see today.

I've had a ride flagged from Rás Mumhan, where I crashed and had to ride a spare bike for a bit and was drafting in the cavalcade to get back on, so power data disappeared and speeds went up which looked dodgy. The ride was flagged, and one of the actions I could do was say 'no, this is fine*', and I think that was the end of that.

It seems bizarre for some outright definitely-in-a-car rides, that the rider can just say 'no, this is fine', and it can't ever be doubted ever again. Surely there's a way of counting the number of reported flags on a ride in a period, and having it nullified after some threshold is reached?


*whether drafting is fine for Strava KOMs is a discussion for another day

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

This is why a local rep makes sense

problem is, what's local? there are roads in wicklow i'd probably know as well as roads in patagonia. and i wouldn't want the hassle of policing other people's segments, which is why, uh, i agreed to become a mod here.

Daroxtar

buffalo wrote: »

*whether drafting is fine for Strava KOMs is a discussion for another day

So long as you are socially distant from the back of the tractor it's fine.

CramCycle

buffalo wrote: »

*whether drafting is fine for Strava KOMs is a discussion for another day

Its part of racing, no way to avoid it. Whether the DB on my commute is OK ot draft is another question.

magicbastarder wrote: »

problem is, what's local? there are roads in wicklow i'd probably know as well as roads in patagonia. and i wouldn't want the hassle of policing other people's segments, which is why, uh, i agreed to become a mod here.

I am not saying actively police it but have it as a reflag option. Strava could go as normal for the first flag. After the user marks it resolved, it gets flagged to a local rep who can quickly look over it and decide that it is fine, it is hard to tell or no they are clearly cheating. 9/10 its an obvious error by the rider and not intentional.

plodder

I pay for one of the Summit 'packs' but never use its features. More about just supporting them, which does make you question their business model. When we had the 2km limit, I noticed there was two running segments near me, one which I thought I could have a bash at, but the top five were all done on bikes. Started flagging and could not understand why the top guy wasn't disappearing. Turned out he cycled the same route literally dozens of times and each ride had to be flagged separately. I hope he didn't think I have a personal vendetta against him.

greendom

CramCycle wrote: »

I got two KOMs on the ride in this morning, nothing else seems to have changed so I obviously used very little or it will be tomorrow when they make all the changes?

Thinly veiled, I got two KOMs post

On a serious note, when you subscribe, can you re report rides that are marked as solved. For the price of it, I'd do that. I left my GPS on in the car before and was happy someone reported it but some people seem to ignore it, others even apparently driving around to get KOMs. It has put me off Strava some what as they don't police it, which I understand would cost more unless they hired local volunteers or reps. I'd pay if I could report rides that are doing 80kmph one way, stopping in Dunnes and then doing 80kmph in the opposite direction.

It's going at 6pm tonight apparently

CramCycle

greendom wrote: »

It's going at 6pm tonight apparently

Time for one last hurrah on the commute home

North of 32

I've got too much love for my motorway-overpass KOMs to let my subscription lapse.

godtabh

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, i tried to report one but got a message saying you can't report a ride that had been flagged and allowed stand.
i was toying of putting in a feature request to be able to block riders as a way around this.
FWIW, it's this one, someone doing the steep part of newtownpark avenue at a claimed 64km/h, at the end of a ride with some decent climbing.

https://www.strava.com/segments/17828072

I live next to there. The speed some people go up and down there is unreal

eeeee

godtabh wrote: »

I live next to there. The speed some people go up and down there is unreal

I've hit max non-roller cadence on the way downhill from the N11 down that road on the fixie it's great! It's a prick to go up though.

The thing that tells you your speed is my aim when on a geared bike. Wheee! I don't think it picks up bikes anymore though sadly. Plus there are cars that pull out in front of you from Holypark because they don't think a bike can go as fast as a car there.

j@utis

Segments and leaderboards make Strava. I wouldn't be interested in it at all otherwise. I signed up earlier this month to keep my motivation going. I only got back into cycling because gyms were shut, I can see myself cancelling the Strava membership when I can go back to proper training.

Regarding the leaderboards, I don't see a point to display data from year 2012 or so, it would be enough of 2-3 years back, current year is the most interesting though. I never even look at "all time" result, just go to filter "women this year" straight away.

triggermortis

I’ve been more interested in the segment times for the last 2 months as they have given me something to aim for (a higher placing not a KOM) so I doubt I’ll care again once we’re back to whatever normal is. I did pay a couple of years ago and didn’t really make full use of it so I can’t see me paying again now. Have to see how I feel once I see the new layout

Wishbone Ash

magicbastarder wrote: »

... and matching that segment to everyone who's ever ridden it and each time they've ridden it, is impressive.

They don't seem to match every time a segment is ridden. If I take a random segment on my commute, Strava will say I've ridden it 120 times for example whereas it should be way more than that.