Golf Lockdown Discussion ** No discussion of breaking Restrictions **

First Up

PabloAndRoy wrote:

I was talking people not putting in cards under the new WHS. I am only playing a couple of years, but i regularly played competions where some of the long time members didn't put in their card after a poor round. I played with one guy who said he never puts his card in.

That really messes up the SCC. Some clubs suspend members' access to competition time if they do it twice.

RGS

First Up wrote: »

But whoever is overseeing the competition still has to handle the cards afterwards.

Handling cards by the comp sec is not necessary now. Our comp secretary hasn't handled a card since we came back after the 1st lockdown.


As I stated we just get the better scoring cards emailed to the comp sec and if there are issues they are investigated and if necessary a DQ will follow.


In the current climate we have to make changes to our previous way of doing things and adapt.

PabloAndRoy

RGS wrote: »

...

In the current climate we have to make changes to our previous way of doing things and adapt.

I only started playing comps in 2020, so I will need to adapt to the normal way of doings things in 2022 (hopefully).

First Up

RGS wrote:

Handling cards by the comp sec is not necessary now. Our comp secretary hasn't handled a card since we came back after the 1st lockdown.

As I stated we just get the better scoring cards emailed to the comp sec and if there are issues they are investigated and if necessary a DQ will follow.

In the current climate we have to make changes to our previous way of doing things and adapt.

Of course we must adapt but what you describe only works for prizes - not handicaps. To calculate Standard Scratch you need all scores and getting everyone's cooperation for that to work with emails is a big ask.

We will see what can be done over time but in the short term, we would be better off with casual golf. Getting people safely around the course and clubhouse is enough to be going on with.

PabloAndRoy

First Up wrote: »

Of course we must adapt but what you describe only works for prizes - not handicaps. To calculate Standard Scratch you need all scores and getting everyone's cooperation for that to work with emails is a big ask.

We will see what can be done over time but in the short term, we would be better off with casual golf. Getting people safely around the course and clubhouse is enough to be going on with.

CSS & SSS are now gone AFAIK. WHS calculates the PCC (Playing Condition Calculation). The same applies, you need all score cards returned to get an accurate calculation.

I think the point being made above was that everyone puts in scores via computer/app and just the top scorers email a photo of their card.

Seve OB

First Up wrote: »

If it's a competition (qualifying or not), a player has to submit a signed card. During Covid we have been filling in our own cards and another in the group tracks and confirms the score.

But whoever is overseeing the competition still has to handle the cards afterwards.

were you living under a rock last year?

concessions were made that allowed scores to be entered via app.
i'm pretty sure that it was not required to fill in an actual card but scorecards could be photographed and sent by whats app or email etc where clubs requested

absolutely no need for anyone to handle the cards.

h2005

First Up wrote: »

If it's a competition (qualifying or not), a player has to submit a signed card. During Covid we have been filling in our own cards and another in the group tracks and confirms the score.

But whoever is overseeing the competition still has to handle the cards afterwards.

Our club was using HowdidIdo. No need to submit a card, just add your playing partner to the car when submitting digitally.

Seve OB

https://www.randa.org/en/news/2020/03/covid-19-related-guidance-on-the-rules-of-golf

Scoring in Stroke Play (Rule 3.3b)

In view of concerns around handling and exchanging scorecards (which may be in paper or electronic form as already provided in the Rules), on a temporary basis, Committees may choose to allow methods of scoring in stroke play that do not strictly comply with Rule 3.3b or do not comply with the normal methods used under Rule 3.3b.

For example:

Players may enter their own hole scores on the scorecard (it is not necessary for a marker to do it).
It is not necessary to have a marker physically certify the player’s hole scores, but some form of verbal certification should take place if at all possible.
It is not necessary to physically return a scorecard to the Committee provided the Committee can accept the scores in another way.

First Up

If it can be done in another way, maybe some clubs will run competitions, although I think they will be non qualifying unless everyone is doing it.

There is no point people jumping up and down demanding an immediate return to normal when we are in a very abnormal situation.

ShivasIrons

RoadRunner wrote: »

I don't like to see 2ball or extra large gaps between groups as part of the discussion surrounding return to golf.



But lets not start the return to golf as being only 2 people allowed per 2 holes or something daft like that.

Why not two balls and sufficient gaps?



The answer is normally we won't get enough out on the course. This however is not true. What's more important is getting golfers around the course, i.e pace of play rather then getting them on the golf course.


So, which is better 2 balls at 8 minutes or 4 balls at 10 minutes? One has about 15 golfers per hour and the other has 24 golfers. At the moment there is about 12.5 hours of usable daylight to play. How many golfers can play in that situation?


The main reason behind slow play is the number of golfers on the course, the more golfers on the course the slower it is. How you control the number of golfers on the course is through starting times. When there is space on the golf course, golfers can move, when there isn't they can't and there is slow play. By having a one hole gap between groups, slow play is generally non existent. The starting gap should be the time it takes to play a hole. A 2 ball will play a par 4 in 8 minutes, 2 balls will play most courses, with minimal walks from green to tee, in 2 1/2 hours.


A 4 ball won't play a hole in 10 minutes, a course will get clogged pretty quickly and long rounds are the result. 10 minute 4 balls on most courses lead to rounds over 4 hours and pushing 5 when a tee sheet is full.


With 12.5 hours daylight, for 2 balls there is up to 10 hours available, which is 150 golfers or so. 150 golfers moving around the course with minimal delays too.


For 4 balls this is 8 hours available, yes this is 192 golfers but a clogged golf course, much longer rounds and constant waits and delays.


Which do you prefer, a round with no waiting or waiting all the time? The evidence for this is very clear from the reopening after the first lockdown, tee times a couple of minutes further apart and golfers reporting that it was only taking 3 hours to play a three ball, as soon as clubs could go back to normal spacing they did and straight away back to clogged courses.


So 2 balls is not daft, further spacing between groups is also not daft. What is daft is not being able to see that decreasing gaps and increasing the size of groups clogs up golf courses and slows down play .


From a virus standpoint, there will be much less interaction between 2 golfers over 2.5 hours, than 4 golfers over 4.5 hours and even with it much less likely to spread outdoors, 2 people is safer than 4 people. The safest way to play golf would be single players only, which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand if it was the only way golf could come back a little earlier.

Kingswood Rover

gypsy79 wrote: »

Incorrect....maybe 1% of people with a positive test ends up in hospital (and that is clearly incorrect by the way). Even if I give you that....many young people have it and never get tested because they have no symptoms.

The numbers and what the media report are wildly different. I have analysed the numbers that are supplied and nearly everything I have read in media is purposefully misinterpretting the numbers to scaremonger

I will probably get banned for saying what you are saying is wrong!

I think the figures i used from the news report were from early in the pandemic and i know stats and figures is your Game Gypsy but my point was that Golf heads stats were just plain nutz

opinionated3

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Why not two balls and sufficient gaps?



The answer is normally we won't get enough out on the course. This however is not true. What's more important is getting golfers around the course, i.e pace of play rather then getting them on the golf course.


So, which is better 2 balls at 8 minutes or 4 balls at 10 minutes? One has about 15 golfers per hour and the other has 24 golfers. At the moment there is about 12.5 hours of usable daylight to play. How many golfers can play in that situation?


The main reason behind slow play is the number of golfers on the course, the more golfers on the course the slower it is. How you control the number of golfers on the course is through starting times. When there is space on the golf course, golfers can move, when there isn't they can't and there is slow play. By having a one hole gap between groups, slow play is generally non existent. The starting gap should be the time it takes to play a hole. A 2 ball will play a par 4 in 8 minutes, 2 balls will play most courses, with minimal walks from green to tee, in 2 1/2 hours.


A 4 ball won't play a hole in 10 minutes, a course will get clogged pretty quickly and long rounds are the result. 10 minute 4 balls on most courses lead to rounds over 4 hours and pushing 5 when a tee sheet is full.


With 12.5 hours daylight, for 2 balls there is up to 10 hours available, which is 150 golfers or so. 150 golfers moving around the course with minimal delays too.


For 4 balls this is 8 hours available, yes this is 192 golfers but a clogged golf course, much longer rounds and constant waits and delays.


Which do you prefer, a round with no waiting or waiting all the time? The evidence for this is very clear from the reopening after the first lockdown, tee times a couple of minutes further apart and golfers reporting that it was only taking 3 hours to play a three ball, as soon as clubs could go back to normal spacing they did and straight away back to clogged courses.


So 2 balls is not daft, further spacing between groups is also not daft. What is daft is not being able to see that decreasing gaps and increasing the size of groups clogs up golf courses and slows down play .


From a virus standpoint, there will be much less interaction between 2 golfers over 2.5 hours, than 4 golfers over 4.5 hours and even with it much less likely to spread outdoors, 2 people is safer than 4 people. The safest way to play golf would be single players only, which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand if it was the only way golf could come back a little earlier.

If your club has a problem with slow play that's their problem to sort out, not everyone else's. Our club was perfectly fine after an initial settling in period after the first lockdown last year. No "clogged course". We want normal golf to return, not some token two ball gesture. Most lads have a regular four ball and from a mental health point of view, they would like to get back to that. If we keep coming up with silly conciliatory suggestions for nphet to take advantage of, we'll never get back to normal.

RGS

First Up wrote: »

Of course we must adapt but what you describe only works for prizes - not handicaps. To calculate Standard Scratch you need all scores and getting everyone's cooperation for that to work with emails is a big ask.

We will see what can be done over time but in the short term, we would be better off with casual golf. Getting people safely around the course and clubhouse is enough to be going on with.

Maybe I wasn't clear--all scores are recorded by the player on the digital scorecard and linked to our club software(Master Scoreboard) and then pushed onto the WHS platform, which is where the handicaps are managed.

First Up

RGS wrote:

Maybe I wasn't clear--all scores are recorded by the player on the digital scorecard and linked to our club software(Master Scoreboard) and then pushed onto the WHS platform, which is where the handicaps are managed.

Great, but there was a post earlier about some players in competitions never entering their scores. If they won't but their card in a box, I doubt they will go online to do it.

ShivasIrons

opinionated3 wrote: »

If your club has a problem with slow play that's their problem to sort out, not everyone else's. Our club was perfectly fine after an initial settling in period after the first lockdown last year. No "clogged course". We want normal golf to return, not some token two ball gesture. Most lads have a regular four ball and from a mental health point of view, they would like to get back to that. If we keep coming up with silly conciliatory suggestions for nphet to take advantage of, we'll never get back to normal.

So, what you're saying is that you want to use golf as a vehicle to meet up with your friends?

The Big Easy

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So, what you're saying is that you want to use golf as a vehicle to meet up with your friends?

My God, perish the thought, someone wanting to meet up with their friends!

What has this pandemic and its resultant fever dream of fear done to people?!

Raisins

opinionated3 wrote: »

Most lads have a regular four ball and from a mental health point of view, they would like to get back to that.

Who knows what would happen to these lads mentally if they couldn’t play with their mates or they had to play in a two ball. This thread is like a parody. Two balls?...the cure is worse than the disease!

RoadRunner

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Why not two balls and sufficient gaps?

If some courses with fewer members want to play 2 balls only, then that's great, and I'd love to join that course too!

Masterscoreboard shows 715 members listed on my course of 18 holes. Our course cannot sustain 2 balls or any other mickey mouse stuff that was insisted on last time. We had to switch to 9 hole x 2 balls to try to sustain the demand.

If we play with fewer clubs or without plastic tees then there's also technically less risk of catching a virus but I don't feel golfers need nphet or the government dictating additional rules to golfers as to how we play. In the great outdoors it doesn't matter whether there's 2 or whether there's 3 people per square kilometre on the course and forced government limits as to how often players can tee off at is tokenism. It's putting caveats on things that aren't measurable and for no point. It's interfering in things just for the sake of it and it's the difference between you playing your first round of golf in 5 months, in beautiful sunshine on a lovely course and you not being able to get out!

opinionated3

Raisins wrote: »

Who knows what would happen to these lads mentally if they couldn’t play with their mates or they had to play in a two ball. This thread is like a parody. Two balls?...the cure is worse than the disease!

This obsession with two balls is bordering on the ridiculous now. Are golfers gone anti social over the course of the pandemic??!

opinionated3

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So, what you're saying is that you want to use golf as a vehicle to meet up with your friends?

Not totally but yeah, for me it is a huge part of the golfing experience. I haven't seen my three golfing buddies since last October. If we're gone to the realms of begrudging fourballs between friends, well,I really don't know what to say anymore😒.

Golfhead65

At last someone talking sense

ShivasIrons

opinionated3 wrote: »

Not totally but yeah, for me it is a huge part of the golfing experience. I haven't seen my three golfing buddies since last October. If we're gone to the realms of begrudging fourballs between friends, well,I really don't know what to say anymore��.

I never said there's anything wrong with that, in fact it's one of the great things about golf, the social aspect of it. I'm not begrudging fourballs between friends.



But, if it was the only way that golf was allowed to open up was single play or two balls only, it shouldn't be dismissed as daft or mickey mouse, especially as both are a very common form of play anyway.

ClutchIt

Found an unused field near me where I can hit a full sand wedge. Success.
There's actually a massive unused sports field just as close but security kicked me off for hitting a few wedges by myself.

opinionated3

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I never said there's anything wrong with that, in fact it's one of the great things about golf, the social aspect of it. I'm not begrudging fourballs between friends.



But, if it was the only way that golf was allowed to open up was single play or two balls only, it shouldn't be dismissed as daft or mickey mouse, especially as both are a very common form of play anyway.

I see your point from a "desperation" view..... As in we're so desperate to get back playing, we would probably accept any terms and conditions at this stage. Personally I would be quite dismissive of it actually. There's no need for it. There is no need for nphet to interfere with the normal functioning of our game. Golf is safe. We know that. So let it open as normal with no silly caveats.

bustercherry

opinionated3 wrote: »

I see your point from a "desperation" view..... As in we're so desperate to get back playing, we would probably accept any terms and conditions at this stage. Personally I would be quite dismissive of it actually. There's no need for it. There is no need for nphet to interfere with the normal functioning of our game. Golf is safe. We know that. So let it open as normal with no silly caveats.

Is that what NPHET is doing? Or is the case that golf Ireland advise what is possible based on government policy and guidelines.

I don’t that the lads over at NPHET give much thought on how they can ruin golf for everyone.

opinionated3

bustercherry wrote: »

Is that what NPHET is doing? Or is the case that golf Ireland advise what is possible based on government policy and guidelines.

I don’t that the lads over at NPHET give much thought on how they can ruin golf for everyone.

Well if that's golf Ireland's advise........ My god 😡😡😡

Ollieboy

I wouldn’t worry about 2 balls, it will be in place for two weeks and clubs will move away from it and the same with guest. Clubs need the income unless the govt is going to fund them.

slingerz

Last year I thought 2balls meant a very quick round - POSITIVE but the lack of competition meant focus was poor so scores were haphazard - NEGATIVE.

I think in my club having 10 mins between 3balls or 14 between 4balls was quite satisfactory and meant a decent pace of play for all. The grumbling then started over not getting the 8AM tee slot and only getting a slot at 11.20

I think if golf comes back member competitions are more than appropriate and safe to run. The first lockdown showed those measures of no competition to be excessive

RGS

The big problem is that sports Ireland take the NPHET recommendations and adapt them for sports.
If NPHET state no more than 2 households can meet outdoors sports Ireland takes that and imposes it on the sports involved.

The re opening in NI on 12 April is subject to the 2 household rule which confirms golf Ireland have not been able to amend the rules. It allows 2 balls every 8 minutes.


Given the NI return date and rules I now believe we will reopen golf on the 12th with the same rule.

the greatest game

lads on here arguing over 2 balls 3 balls 4 balls.. god, its hard to read some of the rubbish.

I was just want to play any sort of golf, which I am now pessimistic that it will happen in April.