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Golf Lockdown Discussion No discussion of breaking Restrictions

Keano

Time to discuss what golf is going to look like for next year, maybe more, who knows.

What is your club doing? What would you like to see happen?

Mod note: we have done to death the restrictions(5k jumping to 20k in June) so this is not a thread for discussing that topic, take it to COVID-19 forum

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RGS

First Up wrote: »

Of course we must adapt but what you describe only works for prizes - not handicaps. To calculate Standard Scratch you need all scores and getting everyone's cooperation for that to work with emails is a big ask.

We will see what can be done over time but in the short term, we would be better off with casual golf. Getting people safely around the course and clubhouse is enough to be going on with.

Maybe I wasn't clear--all scores are recorded by the player on the digital scorecard and linked to our club software(Master Scoreboard) and then pushed onto the WHS platform, which is where the handicaps are managed.

opinionated3

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Why not two balls and sufficient gaps?

The answer is normally we won't get enough out on the course. This however is not true. What's more important is getting golfers around the course, i.e pace of play rather then getting them on the golf course.

So, which is better 2 balls at 8 minutes or 4 balls at 10 minutes? One has about 15 golfers per hour and the other has 24 golfers. At the moment there is about 12.5 hours of usable daylight to play. How many golfers can play in that situation?

The main reason behind slow play is the number of golfers on the course, the more golfers on the course the slower it is. How you control the number of golfers on the course is through starting times. When there is space on the golf course, golfers can move, when there isn't they can't and there is slow play. By having a one hole gap between groups, slow play is generally non existent. The starting gap should be the time it takes to play a hole. A 2 ball will play a par 4 in 8 minutes, 2 balls will play most courses, with minimal walks from green to tee, in 2 1/2 hours.

A 4 ball won't play a hole in 10 minutes, a course will get clogged pretty quickly and long rounds are the result. 10 minute 4 balls on most courses lead to rounds over 4 hours and pushing 5 when a tee sheet is full.

With 12.5 hours daylight, for 2 balls there is up to 10 hours available, which is 150 golfers or so. 150 golfers moving around the course with minimal delays too.

For 4 balls this is 8 hours available, yes this is 192 golfers but a clogged golf course, much longer rounds and constant waits and delays.

Which do you prefer, a round with no waiting or waiting all the time? The evidence for this is very clear from the reopening after the first lockdown, tee times a couple of minutes further apart and golfers reporting that it was only taking 3 hours to play a three ball, as soon as clubs could go back to normal spacing they did and straight away back to clogged courses.

So 2 balls is not daft, further spacing between groups is also not daft. What is daft is not being able to see that decreasing gaps and increasing the size of groups clogs up golf courses and slows down play .

From a virus standpoint, there will be much less interaction between 2 golfers over 2.5 hours, than 4 golfers over 4.5 hours and even with it much less likely to spread outdoors, 2 people is safer than 4 people. The safest way to play golf would be single players only, which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand if it was the only way golf could come back a little earlier.

If your club has a problem with slow play that's their problem to sort out, not everyone else's. Our club was perfectly fine after an initial settling in period after the first lockdown last year. No "clogged course". We want normal golf to return, not some token two ball gesture. Most lads have a regular four ball and from a mental health point of view, they would like to get back to that. If we keep coming up with silly conciliatory suggestions for nphet to take advantage of, we'll never get back to normal.

Kingswood Rover

gypsy79 wrote: »

Incorrect....maybe 1% of people with a positive test ends up in hospital (and that is clearly incorrect by the way). Even if I give you that....many young people have it and never get tested because they have no symptoms.

The numbers and what the media report are wildly different. I have analysed the numbers that are supplied and nearly everything I have read in media is purposefully misinterpretting the numbers to scaremonger

I will probably get banned for saying what you are saying is wrong!

I think the figures i used from the news report were from early in the pandemic and i know stats and figures is your Game Gypsy but my point was that Golf heads stats were just plain nutz

ShivasIrons

RoadRunner wrote: »

I don't like to see 2ball or extra large gaps between groups as part of the discussion surrounding return to golf.

But lets not start the return to golf as being only 2 people allowed per 2 holes or something daft like that.

Why not two balls and sufficient gaps?

The answer is normally we won't get enough out on the course. This however is not true. What's more important is getting golfers around the course, i.e pace of play rather then getting them on the golf course.

So, which is better 2 balls at 8 minutes or 4 balls at 10 minutes? One has about 15 golfers per hour and the other has 24 golfers. At the moment there is about 12.5 hours of usable daylight to play. How many golfers can play in that situation?

The main reason behind slow play is the number of golfers on the course, the more golfers on the course the slower it is. How you control the number of golfers on the course is through starting times. When there is space on the golf course, golfers can move, when there isn't they can't and there is slow play. By having a one hole gap between groups, slow play is generally non existent. The starting gap should be the time it takes to play a hole. A 2 ball will play a par 4 in 8 minutes, 2 balls will play most courses, with minimal walks from green to tee, in 2 1/2 hours.

A 4 ball won't play a hole in 10 minutes, a course will get clogged pretty quickly and long rounds are the result. 10 minute 4 balls on most courses lead to rounds over 4 hours and pushing 5 when a tee sheet is full.

With 12.5 hours daylight, for 2 balls there is up to 10 hours available, which is 150 golfers or so. 150 golfers moving around the course with minimal delays too.

For 4 balls this is 8 hours available, yes this is 192 golfers but a clogged golf course, much longer rounds and constant waits and delays.

Which do you prefer, a round with no waiting or waiting all the time? The evidence for this is very clear from the reopening after the first lockdown, tee times a couple of minutes further apart and golfers reporting that it was only taking 3 hours to play a three ball, as soon as clubs could go back to normal spacing they did and straight away back to clogged courses.

So 2 balls is not daft, further spacing between groups is also not daft. What is daft is not being able to see that decreasing gaps and increasing the size of groups clogs up golf courses and slows down play .

From a virus standpoint, there will be much less interaction between 2 golfers over 2.5 hours, than 4 golfers over 4.5 hours and even with it much less likely to spread outdoors, 2 people is safer than 4 people. The safest way to play golf would be single players only, which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand if it was the only way golf could come back a little earlier.

First Up

If it can be done in another way, maybe some clubs will run competitions, although I think they will be non qualifying unless everyone is doing it.

There is no point people jumping up and down demanding an immediate return to normal when we are in a very abnormal situation.

Seve OB

https://www.randa.org/en/news/2020/03/covid-19-related-guidance-on-the-rules-of-golf

Scoring in Stroke Play (Rule 3.3b)

In view of concerns around handling and exchanging scorecards (which may be in paper or electronic form as already provided in the Rules), on a temporary basis, Committees may choose to allow methods of scoring in stroke play that do not strictly comply with Rule 3.3b or do not comply with the normal methods used under Rule 3.3b.

For example:

Players may enter their own hole scores on the scorecard (it is not necessary for a marker to do it).
It is not necessary to have a marker physically certify the player’s hole scores, but some form of verbal certification should take place if at all possible.
It is not necessary to physically return a scorecard to the Committee provided the Committee can accept the scores in another way.

h2005

First Up wrote: »

If it's a competition (qualifying or not), a player has to submit a signed card. During Covid we have been filling in our own cards and another in the group tracks and confirms the score.

But whoever is overseeing the competition still has to handle the cards afterwards.

Our club was using HowdidIdo. No need to submit a card, just add your playing partner to the car when submitting digitally.

Seve OB

First Up wrote: »

If it's a competition (qualifying or not), a player has to submit a signed card. During Covid we have been filling in our own cards and another in the group tracks and confirms the score.

But whoever is overseeing the competition still has to handle the cards afterwards.

were you living under a rock last year?

concessions were made that allowed scores to be entered via app.
i'm pretty sure that it was not required to fill in an actual card but scorecards could be photographed and sent by whats app or email etc where clubs requested

absolutely no need for anyone to handle the cards.

PabloAndRoy

First Up wrote: »

Of course we must adapt but what you describe only works for prizes - not handicaps. To calculate Standard Scratch you need all scores and getting everyone's cooperation for that to work with emails is a big ask.

We will see what can be done over time but in the short term, we would be better off with casual golf. Getting people safely around the course and clubhouse is enough to be going on with.

CSS & SSS are now gone AFAIK. WHS calculates the PCC (Playing Condition Calculation). The same applies, you need all score cards returned to get an accurate calculation.

I think the point being made above was that everyone puts in scores via computer/app and just the top scorers email a photo of their card.

First Up

RGS wrote:

Handling cards by the comp sec is not necessary now. Our comp secretary hasn't handled a card since we came back after the 1st lockdown.

As I stated we just get the better scoring cards emailed to the comp sec and if there are issues they are investigated and if necessary a DQ will follow.

In the current climate we have to make changes to our previous way of doing things and adapt.

Of course we must adapt but what you describe only works for prizes - not handicaps. To calculate Standard Scratch you need all scores and getting everyone's cooperation for that to work with emails is a big ask.

We will see what can be done over time but in the short term, we would be better off with casual golf. Getting people safely around the course and clubhouse is enough to be going on with.

PabloAndRoy

RGS wrote: »

...

In the current climate we have to make changes to our previous way of doing things and adapt.

I only started playing comps in 2020, so I will need to adapt to the normal way of doings things in 2022 (hopefully).

RGS

First Up wrote: »

But whoever is overseeing the competition still has to handle the cards afterwards.

Handling cards by the comp sec is not necessary now. Our comp secretary hasn't handled a card since we came back after the 1st lockdown.

As I stated we just get the better scoring cards emailed to the comp sec and if there are issues they are investigated and if necessary a DQ will follow.

In the current climate we have to make changes to our previous way of doing things and adapt.

First Up

PabloAndRoy wrote:

I was talking people not putting in cards under the new WHS. I am only playing a couple of years, but i regularly played competions where some of the long time members didn't put in their card after a poor round. I played with one guy who said he never puts his card in.

That really messes up the SCC. Some clubs suspend members' access to competition time if they do it twice.

PabloAndRoy

First Up wrote: »

If it's a competition (qualifying or not), a player has to submit a signed card. During Covid we have been filling in our own cards and another in the group tracks and confirms the score.

But whoever is overseeing the competition still has to handle the cards afterwards.

I was talking people not putting in cards under the new WHS. I am only playing a couple of years, but i regularly played competions where some of the long time members didn't put in their card after a poor round. I played with one guy who said he never puts his card in.

First Up

PabloAndRoy wrote:

I am still unclear on how not handing in cards will be handled. With regard to non-competition rounds going toward your handicap, you need to state before your round that you will be entering a card for the round. Will clubs charge for this?

If it's a competition (qualifying or not), a player has to submit a signed card. During Covid we have been filling in our own cards and another in the group tracks and confirms the score.

But whoever is overseeing the competition still has to handle the cards afterwards.

blue note

youcancallmeal wrote: »

True, more often than not I find Americans with low handicaps they can't play to because of the loose way they record their scores. I'd still like the option to play 'casual' and have it count towards handicap as long as there is someone playing with you who will sign your card

Ha, this reminds me of a time when I was a junior and I caddied for a Texan. He bogeyed the first hole and talked to himself after - "it's okay baby, we can make that back." So I thought great, I'm caddying for a scratch or thereabouts golfer if he's basing himself off level par. Then a double or triple on the second and walking onto the next hole he's telling himself "it's okay baby, plenty of golf left, we can make those back." Two holes in it was very obvious that this guy would struggle to shoot 72 on a pitch and putt course!

It turns out his handicap was 13 I think. Maybe he was just having an awful day, but I'd have guessed he was more of a 20 handicap guy. I do remember him getting a birdie on the 12th though and that was enough for him to remember it as a good round. After it he was talking about how he was having a poor round but he managed to turn it around. He so did not! He had a stinker of a round and a birdie in the middle of it. I think that's just the American confidence (delusion) that isn't as common here.

Although, however bad my rounds are I always manage to look back at the positives from them and dismiss the negatives. So I went months last year hardly ever breaking 30 points but coming in each time thinking there's a good score in me, I'm striking it well, if I can just get rid of those 6 scratches per round I'll be contending!

PabloAndRoy

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Interesting, so you could have the round of your life and it may not count because the minimum number wasn't hit. Also I would envisage a lot of people not putting cards in if they have an awful round. The no returns in competitions was really bad last year in my club but all they did was send out an email urging people to put their score in regardless of how they did. I heard they used to punish serial offenders at handicap review time but seems like they haven't done it in a few years. The handicap secretary probably didn't want the grief

I am still unclear on how not handing in cards will be handled. With regard to non-competition rounds going toward your handicap, you need to state before your round that you will be entering a card for the round. Will clubs charge for this?

I guess if there is a morning comp and you don't want to compete, you could still play 18 in the afternoon and the round could go towards your handicap index. That way there will be a PCC from the comp in the morning.

All this has nothing to do with this thread, but at least it is about golf

youcancallmeal

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

This is part of the WHS system and will be available to us once we are back at it. The only caveat is that there must be a minumum number of people also putting in cards in order to calculate the PCC on the day. (In my head that minmum number is 8, but I can't be sure of that.)

Interesting, so you could have the round of your life and it may not count because the minimum number wasn't hit. Also I would envisage a lot of people not putting cards in if they have an awful round. The no returns in competitions was really bad last year in my club but all they did was send out an email urging people to put their score in regardless of how they did. I heard they used to punish serial offenders at handicap review time but seems like they haven't done it in a few years. The handicap secretary probably didn't want the grief

RoadRunner

youcancallmeal wrote: »

True, more often than not I find Americans with low handicaps they can't play to because of the loose way they record their scores.

off topic, but in another thread, someone posted a podcast for chasing scratch where two american golfers starting a 11hc are trying to reach stratch. Halfway through they figure out that two 9hole comps can be played back to back and will combine to give a handicap as if it was one 18. They obviously play with buggies over there and 9 holes can be done in ~45m-1hr. So when they've a good 9 played. They turn it and go out the next day and try to play another good 9 to match it. They are selecting courses that suit them and they have dropped from 11 to ~6hc where I am right now.

Back on to the topic.
I don't like to see 2ball or extra large gaps between groups as part of the discussion surrounding return to golf. If there's genuine worry about handling of cards for competition purposes (in clubs that are "backwards" in relation to tech) then kill competitions for a while on the return - competition revenue should be coming back to competition winners anyway so it shouldn't make any odds to the running of clubs. But lets not start the return to golf as being only 2 people allowed per 2 holes or something daft like that.

PabloAndRoy

youcancallmeal wrote: »

True, more often than not I find Americans with low handicaps they can't play to because of the loose way they record their scores. I'd still like the option to play 'casual' and have it count towards handicap as long as there is someone playing with you who will sign your card

This is part of the WHS system and will be available to us once we are back at it. The only caveat is that there must be a minumum number of people also putting in cards in order to calculate the PCC on the day. (In my head that minmum number is 8, but I can't be sure of that.)

youcancallmeal

First Up wrote: »

Handicaps are a joke in the US. When I was a club member there you could put any score you wanted into the computer and out popped a handicap. No checking of scores; people taking Mulligans, gimmies, improving their lies and similar.

If a handicap is to mean anything - especially for inter club - it has to be based on the rules of golf.

True, more often than not I find Americans with low handicaps they can't play to because of the loose way they record their scores. I'd still like the option to play 'casual' and have it count towards handicap as long as there is someone playing with you who will sign your card

First Up

RGS wrote:

We believe this ensures people continue to mark the scorecard correctly and ensure its verified by a fellow competitor.

Its a great help to the comp sec who can sit at home and close the comp quickly and efficiently.

Are all clubs set up for that? If all handicaps meet GUI standards then fair enough but the system has to be consistent and trustworthy everywhere. Internal non-qualifying comps might a first step.

In any case, I think all clubs would welcome a bit of casual golf time to get re-started.

First Up

youcancallmeal wrote:

Yeah I have US friends and they've always been puzzled by why we have to play in a qualifying comp for it to count towards our handicap. Hopefully the system you describe is introduced here soon. Would be nice to be able to play a round outside of competition and for it to mean something

Handicaps are a joke in the US. When I was a club member there you could put any score you wanted into the computer and out popped a handicap. No checking of scores; people taking Mulligans, gimmies, improving their lies and similar.

If a handicap is to mean anything - especially for inter club - it has to be based on the rules of golf.

RGS

I surprised clubs are still physically asking members to physically return cards.
We use an e purse, a digital log in,( I can enter the competition from my kitchen table whilst having breakfast) memebrs do complete their scorecard and have the score verified but the card is not returned to the comp sec. We use a digital scorecard( again I can enter my score when I get home from playing) and we request members to email the comp sec with their card if the achieve a certain score, so he can ensure the winning cards are correctly completed.

We believe this ensures people continue to mark the scorecard correctly and ensure its verified by a fellow competitor.

Its a great help to the comp sec who can sit at home and close the comp quickly and efficiently.

Bill Ponderosa

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's this 2 ball nonsense?

Do we think sports like GAA or Soccer (even if only kids) are going to go back training in groups of 2 or up to 4 if from the same household. Give me a break.

Tell that to golf Ireland

Seve OB

First Up wrote: »

competitions have to be managed - entries and cards checked etc. That means someone has to go the club, set up the competition, handle the cards and other paperwork.

Now you are around here long enough to know that all the handling can be avoided and comp set ups etc can all be done online from the comfort of your own living room.

ClutchIt

Hope Golf Ireland have been working in the background here. I was out walking for a couple hours on Sat & Sun. Parks and walkways packed everywhere. Full cricket match being had both days in a field near me (fair play to them).
Golf is safer than any of this, and will help to reduce the density of people outdoors in other less controlled areas, such as parks. Same with GAA, tennis, rugby etc. I would allow all outdoor sporting to commence Apr 6th. It will not raise the cases, especially in the vulnerable categories, and will help peoples buy-in for other restrictions.

Lip Out

opinionated3 wrote: »

I've served on our competition committee for the last number of years including last year. I know it's a lot trickier but we really got to grips with it and overall turned it into a success (albeit more time consuming). And no outbreaks of covid. Competitions are extremely important for revenue in our club, especially as the bar and restaurant will be closed for the foreseeable. I'd put up with maybe two weeks of casual golf to ease back in, but that's it.
Open them up.

Yes same as that with my club. Every effort was made to make the whole process of competitive golf very safe. Contactless payment and comp entry. Mark your own card and verbally verify with a playing partner. Enter your own score into the HowDidIDo app. Later on we reverted back to submitting marked cards into the comp returns box and then card checkers would use appropriate PPE when checking a few days later.

Clubs will need competition revenue straight away as visitors/greenfees won't be permitted for quite some time.

youcancallmeal

SEORG wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what approach clubs apply to this. Technically you don’t need to play a comp to count towards your handicap anymore now that WHS is in place. You just declare the round before you start by signing into the computer & submitting the score & card afterwards.

Yeah I have US friends and they've always been puzzled by why we have to play in a qualifying comp for it to count towards our handicap. Hopefully the system you describe is introduced here soon. Would be nice to be able to play a round outside of competition and for it to mean something

opinionated3

First Up wrote: »

I wouldn't mind a bit of practice before getting back to qualifying competitions. Plus, competitions have to be managed - entries and cards checked etc. That means someone has to go the club, set up the competition, handle the cards and other paperwork.

Nothing wrong with easing our way back with a few weeks of casual golf.

I've served on our competition committee for the last number of years including last year. I know it's a lot trickier but we really got to grips with it and overall turned it into a success (albeit more time consuming). And no outbreaks of covid. Competitions are extremely important for revenue in our club, especially as the bar and restaurant will be closed for the foreseeable. I'd put up with maybe two weeks of casual golf to ease back in, but that's it.
Open them up.