Golf Lockdown Discussion ** No discussion of breaking Restrictions **

eoghan104

Hoboo wrote: »

The club isnt enforcing any rules that the gardai can't. It's making it's own rule not to allow visitors. Forgive me if I'm missing something, but I think that's pretty simple to understand.

Yeah I understand your opinion is that clubs should enforce the government restrictions. I just disagree and don't think the clubs should have to. I would guess this would be a fairly divisive opinion so let's say we are both right!

GreeBo

eoghan104 wrote: »

There is not even anything the guards can do to stop people moving from county to county so do you expect the clubs to do it?

I'd expect the people to do it rather than act like teenagers.

GreeBo

IAmTitleist wrote: »

Would you really not play over the sake of 1km? Sounds a tad trivial

Here we go again.:rolleyes:

Please explain at what distance it becomes non trivial and then explain how 1km more or less than your definition makes any difference?

Hopefully you can see how this attitude leads to making it impossible to impose any restriction as anyone can add 1km on to any distance and make it "trivial"...

This is the terribly Irish attitude of "sure its just me" and "I'll only be 5 mins" and making a bollix of things for everyone else. Its infuriating for the rest of us.

eoghan104

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd expect the people to do it rather than act like teenagers.

Yeah we all do. Completely irrelevant discussion to the topic of whether or not clubs should have to police this though.

GreeBo

eoghan104 wrote: »

Yeah we all do. Completely irrelevant discussion to the topic of whether or not clubs should have to police this though.

I wouldn't consider it "policing it"
If a club gets a booking from outside the coutry during a county based lockdown, then yes, they shouldn't accept it.
Just like hotels are/were doing.

First Up

I expect clubs will be restricted to members only, as it was in the initial lockdown. Easy to enforce and monitor.

The 5k or 10k travel limit will apply for golf and everything else. Gardai will enforce that.

IAmTitleist

GreeBo wrote: »

Here we go again.:rolleyes:

Please explain at what distance it becomes non trivial and then explain how 1km more or less than your definition makes any difference?

Hopefully you can see how this attitude leads to making it impossible to impose any restriction as anyone can add 1km on to any distance and make it "trivial"...

This is the terribly Irish attitude of "sure its just me" and "I'll only be 5 mins" and making a bollix of things for everyone else. Its infuriating for the rest of us.

Yawn...travelling one or ten km further by yourself won't have any effect on the spread of coronavirus.

First Up

IAmTitleist wrote:

Yawn...travelling one or ten km further by yourself won't have any effect on the spread of coronavirus.

That depends how you behave while there.

eoghan104

GreeBo wrote: »

I wouldn't consider it "policing it"
If a club gets a booking from outside the coutry during a county based lockdown, then yes, they shouldn't accept it.
Just like hotels are/were doing.

I disagree and as mentioned previously there is probably a fairly even split on opinions on this one.

One example for you. I am a member is Castleknock living in Naas. I booked into the open in the K club yesterday and entered my club as Castleknock. Should as you suggest, the K club not accept that booking based on my club? Should they call me and ask for my address? Should they then check my address somehow and then decline my entry if I lied?

I am just not sure how you think it should be policed. Interested to hear what level of work you think the club should be putting in while at the same time a Guard can't stop me going anywhere.

GreeBo

eoghan104 wrote: »

I disagree and as mentioned previously there is probably a fairly even split on opinions on this one.

One example for you. I am a member is Castleknock living in Naas. I booked into the open in the K club yesterday and entered my club as Castleknock. Should as you suggest, the K club not accept that booking based on my club? Should they call me and ask for my address? Should they then check my address somehow and then decline my entry if I lied?

I am just not sure how you think it should be policed. Interested to hear what level of work you think the club should be putting in while at the same time a Guard can't stop me going anywhere.

Well no, why would you book an open in a different county than the one you live in during covid restrictions?
Golf clubs are not obligated to search out people who are trying to get around the restrictions.
However, if someone is openly flouting the restrictions, then yes the golf club should refuse the booking and, potentially not refund them if it would leave the club out of pocket imo.

If I see someone try to abduct a child I'm still going to try and stop them even though its not my job to do that.
That is not me "policing" crime anymore than a golf club refusing an out of county booking is them "policing" covid.

First Up

eoghan104 wrote:

I am just not sure how you think it should be policed. Interested to hear what level of work you think the club should be putting in while at the same time a Guard can't stop me going anywhere.

Pretty simple actually. Members only. No opens.

GreeBo

IAmTitleist wrote: »

Yawn...travelling one or ten km further by yourself won't have any effect on the spread of coronavirus.

Sure, as long as you stay in your car the entire way there and back and don't ever leave it, go mad.
Seems a but pointless to me, it will be a tricky up and down from the front seat into the boot.

GreeBo

eoghan104 wrote: »

Interested to hear what level of work you think the club should be putting in while at the same time a Guard can't stop me going anywhere.

Everyone has to check in before play right? Well show me some proof of address, if its not in the county then you dont play, its pretty simple.

CalamariFritti

Are we doing this nonsense again? Nothing learned between then (and it was nonsense then) and now?

Only thing I know for sure if they turn this winter into some stay at home hellhole with golf out I will be literally going up the walls.

eoghan104

GreeBo wrote: »

Well no, why would you book an open in a different county than the one you live in during covid restrictions?
Golf clubs are not obligated to search out people who are trying to get around the restrictions.
However, if someone is openly flouting the restrictions, then yes the golf club should refuse the booking and, potentially not refund them if it would leave the club out of pocket imo.

If I see someone try to abduct a child I'm still going to try and stop them even though its not my job to do that.
That is not me "policing" crime anymore than a golf club refusing an out of county booking is them "policing" covid.

Some man for horrendous analogies and dodging the question. I see you mentioned after that you think clubs should be asking for proof of address. A utility bill? Is there a date restriction? Do you need photo ID too? Is there any GDPR laws that might be broken with this request?

It's a lot of effort to "police" something that is just a recommendation and not law. You're living in a dreamland if you think clubs can do this.

Another posted had a simpler solution of making it members only and no opens. That should come from the GUI though and as we know it has not so far for level 3 or 4. It is harsh on people in clubs outside their counties but thems the breaks.

Your analogy of child kidnapping is ridiculous. It is illegal to abduct a child, it is not illegal to go across to another county. Try and at least follow the argument/debate if you are coming in with your crazy posts.

Hoboo

eoghan104 wrote: »

Yeah I understand your opinion is that clubs should enforce the government restrictions. I just disagree and don't think the clubs should have to. I would guess this would be a fairly divisive opinion so let's say we are both right!

I think you may have misunderstood my opinion.

I said they shouldn't allow visitors to protect their own members. That's not part of government restrictions. It's a blanket ban by
the club regardless of what county you are from.

That's up to individual clubs and I support our clubs stance. Our entire voting area (35000 people) has had 5 cases in total. The club has had none. The county has a incidence rate of 402 at the moment, one of the worst in the country.

So to try to protect the club, members and immediate community, they've put a blanket on visitors.

Yes there are members from worse hit areas within the county coming to the club, but that can't be managed. Everyone is expected to respect guidelines and take a sensible no risk approach, and so far it has worked. Having visitors who aren't attached to the club or live by our clubs culture introduces too much risk for a few green fees.

In terms of enforcing government restrictions I agree with you. But that's not what my club is doing, nor did I suggest others should either.

GreeBo

eoghan104 wrote: »

Some man for horrendous analogies and dodging the question. I see you mentioned after that you think clubs should be asking for proof of address. A utility bill? Is there a date restriction? Do you need photo ID too? Is there any GDPR laws that might be broken with this request?

It's a lot of effort to "police" something that is just a recommendation and not law. You're living in a dreamland if you think clubs can do this.

Another posted had a simpler solution of making it members only and no opens. That should come from the GUI though and as we know it has not so far for level 3 or 4. It is harsh on people in clubs outside their counties but thems the breaks.

Your analogy of child kidnapping is ridiculous. It is illegal to abduct a child, it is not illegal to go across to another county. Try and at least follow the argument/debate if you are coming in with your crazy posts.

What question did I dodge? Feel free to point it out or ask it again.

Where does illegalities fit in to your topic of who should do the policing? If it was illegal to travel more than 5k would you then be ok with golf clubs "policing" it? Seems a tad inconsistent to me.

Why don't you just come out and say that you don't want clubs to do it because you want to be free to flout the regulations? Otherwise, what on earth is your problem with it?

(And please, for the love of God don't bring some nonsense GDPR claptrap into your excuses, the last vain attempt at winning an argument on the internet in 2020)

eoghan104

GreeBo wrote: »

What question did I dodge? Feel free to point it out or ask it again.

Where does illegalities fit in to your topic of who should do the policing? If it was illegal to travel more than 5k would you then be ok with golf clubs "policing" it? Seems a tad inconsistent to me.

Why don't you just come out and say that you don't want clubs to do it because you want to be free to flout the regulations? Otherwise, what on earth is your problem with it?

(And please, for the love of God don't bring some nonsense GDPR claptrap into your excuses, the last vain attempt at winning an argument on the internet in 2020)

I am currently abiding by all regulations and have done since they were introduced. This is not about me or what I want. As I have said already I wish that everyone would just abide by the restrictions and help get us out of this mess.

The point you are not getting on this argument is about clubs being obliged to monitor peoples movements and block them from playing when there is not even any laws to stop them. It is a very different debate as to whether clubs have a responsibility to stop people breaking the law on their premises. On this point I think we would agree.

Of course some clubs are within their rights to stop people playing if they wish, they just should not be obliged to or expected to in my opinion.

Maybe this is a bad question but should the club check all players have a valid drivers license when they come driving through the gates? Is this along the same vein of what we are talking about when we try and tease it out a bit?

I don't know, its a divisive topic for sure but interesting to hear peoples thought's.

GreeBo

eoghan104 wrote: »

I am currently abiding by all regulations and have done since they were introduced. This is not about me or what I want. As I have said already I wish that everyone would just abide by the restrictions and help get us out of this mess.

Agreed!

The point you are not getting on this argument is about clubs being obliged to monitor peoples movements and block them from playing when there is not even any laws to stop them. It is a very different debate as to whether clubs have a responsibility to stop people breaking the law on their premises. On this point I think we would agree.

Oh I'm getting it alright, I just don't see what the difficulty is!
Under the more stringent restriction levels clubs should be already taking details of who is playing, when and with whom, so I don't really see what the problem is with refusing access to anyone who is outside the county?

Of course some clubs are within their rights to stop people playing if they wish, they just should not be obliged to or expected to in my opinion.

Is that not the same as facilitating it though? As above, why would a club not refuse access to someone who they know to be breaking the restrictions? "money" cant be the answer and I dont see that they would have to do much more than they will already be doing?

Maybe this is a bad question but should the club check all players have a valid drivers license when they come driving through the gates? Is this along the same vein of what we are talking about when we try and tease it out a bit?

I dont think you can compare day to day issues with social distancing restrictions during a global pandemic...these are hardly ordinarly times.

I don't know, its a divisive topic for sure but interesting to hear peoples thought's.

I guess my concern there is that, as we can clearly see, if you leave things up to people, far too many of them do the wrong thing.

First Up

GreeBo wrote:

Everyone has to check in before play right? Well show me some proof of address, if its not in the county then you dont play, its pretty simple.

The pro shop is not the place to police this.

xgronkjabv6pcl

It's a ridiculous expectation if one believes that a golf club should require greater proof for a visit than the Gardai require to make the journey.

A level of personal responsibility needs to be taken by people. If a club feels uncomfortable with accepting visitors who's residence may be ambiguous then it is their prerogative not to accept them but it should be a blanket rule and not require a certain level of proof on a case by case basis.

The idea that those working in the proshop should be asking for some form of proof on behalf of a club in order to allow visiting players access is ridiculous.

eoghan104

GreeBo wrote: »

Is that not the same as facilitating it though? As above, why would a club not refuse access to someone who they know to be breaking the restrictions? "money" cant be the answer and I dont see that they would have to do much more than they will already be doing?

But the point is it is far more than they are doing now. Asking for proof of address. At a time when it is not even against the law. That's the bit we are falling down on here in the debate.

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think you can compare day to day issues with social distancing restrictions during a global pandemic...these are hardly ordinarly times.

g.

You brought in kidnapping kids FFS :-)

Hoboo

Jordy Fancy Relaxation wrote: »

If a club feels uncomfortable with accepting visitors who's residence may be ambiguous then it is their prerogative not to accept them.

Exactly this. Blanket ban or not.

Although a blanket ban removes any ambiguity and unnecessary debates over how they should run their privately owned club.

GreeBo

eoghan104 wrote: »

But the point is it is far more than they are doing now. Asking for proof of address. At a time when it is not even against the law. That's the bit we are falling down on here in the debate.

My point is that it's not far more than they will be doing under level 4/5 anyway.
Was your club not supporting contact tracing by tracking who was out on the course at all times?

You brought in kidnapping kids FFS :-)

Not sure what circles you run in, but child abduction is not day to day for me!

monkeybutter

looks like level 5 according to the irish times

GreeBo

Hoboo wrote: »

Exactly this. Blanket ban or not.

Although a blanket ban removes any ambiguity and unnecessary debates over how they should run their privately owned club.

Blanket ban for visitors only or including members?
If you are not including members then its a bit of a large hole in your net.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

The pro shop is not the place to police this.

It's not "policing" its part of the contact tracing that your pro shop would be doing anyway under those restrictions!

xgronkjabv6pcl

GreeBo wrote: »

It's not "policing" its part of the contact tracing that your pro shop would be doing anyway under those restrictions!

Of course it's policing.

Obtaining the information may be part of contact tracing but refusing entry based on that information is policing.

There's a difference between obtaining information to be used in the event of an outbreak and using that information to refuse people entry.

The latter is clearly policing no matter how the info is obtained and that should not be the role of ProShop staff.

Dublin Spur

Looking like level 5 for 6 weeks folks
So what do we think the GUI will do?

Back to casual golf ?
Close the courses altogether?

Stacksey

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Looking like level 5 for 6 weeks folks
So what do we think the GUI will do?

Back to casual golf ?
Close the courses altogether?

Is it Sport Ireland who makes that decision? if so the golf courses will be closed