Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

Tenger

A bit like back in 2006 (?) when Aer Lingus launched DUB-DXB.
On the inaugural flight (with all the journalists on it) they used their 2nd oldest A333.

Their then newest A330 had seatback screens and wasn't used for such a media heavy event.

As a (then young and optimistic) employee at the time, I was appalled.

jwm121

Interesting that they started Dubai but I can't really find much information it? What was the whole thing behind starting that route, how long did it last for and why did it end?

Van.Bosch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030442#Comment_122030442

Dermot Mannion was CEO and had worked at emirates. There was a lot of Irish travelling but without connections it couldn’t do well enough to keep it going. Think it lasted a year or two

kevinandrew

The XLR is looking increasingly unlikely.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0417/1444091-new-aircraft-for-aer-lingus-unlikely-as-pay-talks-fail/

Embarrassing.

TheBetsy

Pilot demands probably too high imo, I think its safe to say almost no one in the country has received pay increases in excess of 20% to bring earnings in line with inflation over the past couple of years. I think labour court may meet somewhere in the middle. Let's hope its sorted soon.

sailing

The 20% or so stems from the fact that the payscale for pilots hasn’t changed since around 2010. 14 years ago! In fact it’s worse now for new joiners. So 20% is conservative to be honest.

It’s clear from internal and external correspondence that Aer Lingus Management aren’t really respecting the pay process that was agreed and seem eager to go the media with a “poor me” attitude all the time. I’m not so sure the Labour court will be endearing to their behaviour to date.

The reality is the pilots won’t accept anything close to what’s being offered. They voted by almost 100% against the current offer on the table. That’s not going to change irrespective of what threats they receive. The XLR aircraft is a management issue, not an employee one. They set the deadline, not the pilots.

There was a pay process in place in 2019 in which a pay offer would have been made to cover up to 2023. That was postponed at the end of the process prior to release due Covid. This current process covers up until 2026. So the 23% now actually covers seven years. It’s just over 3% a year which is not in any way excessive or greedy. In fact I would suspect that it’s less than the public service award over the same period. Running to the media giving a particular narrative or spin can be effective, which is exactly what Aer Lingus appear to be doing here with their headline figures, but omitting the facts behind the numbers.

I can see this being a disruptive summer if a much improved deal is not tabled. Aer Lingus are notorious for relying on good will from pilots to fulfill their summer schedule. That requires an enormous amount of flexibility, which historically they have given. If people stick to their contracts then Aer lingus may find themselves in a lack of crew situation very quickly. Interesting few weeks ahead.

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031058#Comment_122031058

Thanks for the insight, interesting stuff.

Would it sound a bit like the pilots are hoping to rake back pay and conditions that would have been pre-green field? Which would have been 2009/10. Essentially the deal done to make the company competitive in the modern market.
Probably not somewhere management will be willing to go back to I’d have thought

Noxegon

It occurs to me that the passenger cap at DUB likely makes deployment of additional aircraft to EI unlikely in the near term anyway. Even a single round trip a day would be another 130,000 passengers over a year.

sailing

I think it was explained above. If back pay was sought all the way to 2010 as you suggest(Greenfield era), which its not, then the numbers would be unrealistic. As above, it works out at about 3% a year from the previous pay agreement.

Tenger

The RTE article linked about mentioned "12.25% increase in consolidated pay and 1.5% of unconsolidated pay"

My understanding was that the pilots wanted 27% and the company offered 8.5%, while talking about some annual leave system from 2019 that they counted as 1-2% extra. Am I well off the mark here?

in a related point 3 other Aer Lingus staff groups got approx 12% pay increases in 2023. (personally I thought the IALPA demand was over the top, even breaking it down into 3% a year)

Qaanaaq

Is the EI operation in Manchester also linked to this agreement or a completely separate entity from a payscale point of view?

kevinandrew

Talking about 3% a year from the previous pays deal is as misleading as some of the stuff management have been saying to be honest. It’s an irrelevant figure as that’s not what is being asked of the company today.

As it stands, pilots want 27% over three years. That’s a steep ask, no matter how you cut it or how many call backs to previous agreements from decades ago are made.

Management have handled this terribly but there’s a nasty reality check coming for all involved soon if no agreement is reached.

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031398#Comment_122031398

I’m not sure, I assume it’s the same but even if it was different IAG wouldn’t view EI UK as a separate entity when it comes to large scale investment like aircraft.

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031414#Comment_122031414

The reality is IAG are competitive successful and profitable. And they will want to remain as such.
Personally do I agree with their approach, not necessarily but that’s got no relevance on anything.

A desirable cost base will be sought for stable profit and security going forward.

If it can’t be negotiated it can always be achieved other ways.

Look for example at Iberia Express, a classic example of where an efficient short haul cost base couldn’t be achieved with Iberia unions, so a new subsidiary was put in place. Look at BA Euroflyer or whatever it’s called over in Gatwick.
Lufthansa and SAS have done the same.

Aer Lingus management were more than happy to set up a new “airline within an airline” for the Manchester base.

What is there to stop them from doing the same again, Que “Aer Lingus Europe” a brand new company who’ll operate all Euro and UK a320/320neo flights.
Brand new market rate terms and conditions.
From a customer perspective nothing would be different.
From a management perspective cost would be lower.

I hope IALPA keep their eyes open in whatever they negotiate and sincerely hope things are resolved soon

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031516#Comment_122031516

I’ve always thought the only way for short haul to grow again was in fact an IB Express style carrier. Either that or an expansion of the Regional franchise clauses to included jets either via the current operator, an additional one or a wholly owned subsidiary.

Considering how difficult Aer Lingus has found securing A320neo’s from IAG (still only two directly from an order made nearly a decade ago) they were never going to get anything substantial without drastic change

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024804#Comment_122024804

I've seen posts here about the Ex QR 330 cabin layout,I've never flown with any of the ME3 and always assumed the cabin layout on all three airlines would be top notch.

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031739#Comment_122031739

Qatar traditionally uses its A330 fleet on lower yielding routes, often to India, Bangladesh and some smaller Chinese cities. Some of the A330s date from a 2003 order so there’s little incentive to put their latest products on them.

All the A330s feature a very mid-2000s tech cabin with old entertainment screens, first gen Recaro seats and the general wear and tear you’d see after 15+ years of flying and little investment.

donkey balls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031830#Comment_122031830

Ah right so I've only ever flown on an old EI 330 to MCO back in the noughties and they had the drop down screens no individual IFE in the headrests. So that type EI are operating that are ex QR.

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031866#Comment_122031866

No they had seat back screens just not as up to date as the rest of the fleet.
They also didn’t have WiFi.

Thankfully both these aircraft are currently out of service having their cabins upgraded

Chris_5339762

I've booked a multi-city trip, going Cork - Heathrow, and then Heathrow - Shannon.

Its laughable. The Aer Lingus app does not support multi city trips, you have to do it on the website. Its absolutely archaic.

x567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031589#Comment_122031589

Couldn’t agree more. The EI ex DUB offer to Europe still seems to be more about trying to compete with Ryanair - an un-winnable war - than providing a focused service as part of a wider well-connected network. Other than for the well-trodden holiday routes and prime business services to LHR and a handful of other European cities from Ireland, which will still warrant decent A320-type services, trying to be a big-guy in the IAG competition for prime air frames will have limited success; whereas going for feeder traffic (including to a niche EI North America network as well as to BA/IB) with better scaled aircraft may be more financially sustainable.

IngazZagni

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122031516#Comment_122031516

They effectively already do. It's called Aer Lingus regional operated by Emerald Airlines who have poor working conditions and pay. Many moving to Ryanair believe it or not.

I think people need to understand that when the pilots demand a certain amount that it's part of a negotiating strategy. If you want 12% you ask for 20% initially and then settle in the middle. Going to the labour court means the management offer was poor. I'm sure the labour court recommendation will be fair.

Again Aer Lingus management only have themselves to blame. They should have started the pay process much sooner if they knew there was a risk to investment from their parent company.

Van.Bosch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122034043#Comment_122034043

or maybe their plan all along was to use the IAG threat to get a better deal. Who knows.

jwm121

Is there still a chance at all a deal could be made with pilots before the deadline? Or a chance that they still might get the XLR in the end? Or is the XLR for Aer Lingus pretty much a goner

Jamie2k9

BA Operated by Emerald have added LGW. Looks to be on sale until late Sep so presumably a temp measure until maybe BA Euro Flyer take over.

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1781027984511582686

Van.Bosch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035846#Comment_122035846

seems mad this wouldn’t at least be an EI codeshare!

sandbelter

No, there’s a very logical reason for EI withdrawing from LGW and it relates to the conditions of EU’s approval authorising IAG’s acquisition of EI set back in 2015.

In my opinion it’s fair to say whilst IAG acquired EI, Virgin in particular had a big input on the conditions of the acquisition espectally when it came to traffic feed. Article 570 of the EU’s approval set out the SPA conditions for feeder traffic and required EI to continue feeding Virgin’s LAS, CUN, MCO and BGI services from LGW (article 570 ii) and to LAS, MCO and BGI (look familiar?) from MAN under (570iii) under the following terms:

»The terms EI carried these passenger could not be any worse than the were at agreed the time of takeover or any worse than which it offered its Oneworld or IAG partners under Article 577, and,

»Whilst Article 582 effective set this obligation in place until Sept 2022 at a minimum.

In plain English this means that EI were stuck feeding passengers into Virgin’s MAN and LGW at rates it would offer potential Oneworld partners. This both benefited Virgins operations but it also hobbled EI’s entry to Oneworld as effectively limited anything it potentially offer exclusively to the alliance. The other two airports EI had EU commitments to were AMS and LHR.

So, Virgin’s decision to exit LGW facilitated EI withdrawing from LGW without any legal blowback. Furthermore, it wouldn’t be under any potential hooks to feed Virgin at LGW going forward if/when Virgin decide to return to LGW.

There are important exemptions, neither BA nor Aer Lingus Regional are obliged to feed Virgin under the same conditions EI, but an EI codeshare potentially could, hence EI are probably playing it safe by not codesharing and why BA and Aer Lingus regional are combining on the route.

Personally, I’d be very surprised to ever see EI back at LGW.

Source: https://ec.europa.eu/competition/mergers/cases/decisions/m7541_20150714_20212_4564413_EN.pdf

sherology

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037030#Comment_122037030

I love's me some facts. Appreciated 😊

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037162#Comment_122037162

Emerald is not EI. Also, already discussed above in any case.

jwm121

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037030#Comment_122037030

Does this mean EI may start some of these routes direct from Dublin in the coming years?

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037030#Comment_122037030

That's really great knowledge there, thank you.

It is possible that we will see BA LGW operating the route in time if they have an aircraft and properly linking (in both directions) the various routes on offer. The ATR has to be a stop gap for the time being.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122035846#Comment_122035846

I’m just having flashbacks to 1995 when BA Cityfkyer used to operate ATRs from Dub to LGW. Surprised that it’s a worthwhile use of a slot. Back then the competition was a Ryanair 732, regularly the Jaguar branded one.

zone 1

when does the morning EI A330 to malaga start

dublin12367

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040681#Comment_122040681

started back the end of March. 07:20 EI580

HTCOne

This whole XLR threat all came about after the DUB cap enforcement was announced by Fingal. It wouldn't surprise me if that's the main factor in IAG considering re-alocation and they're just trying to use that as a bargaining chip with the Pilots that they otherwise wouldn't have.

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041079#Comment_122041079

I’d have thought they’d have taken the aircraft anyway and sent them to Manchester base publicising this move to show up the government for their lack of serious action causing routes and jobs to be pushed outside of Ireland.

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041102#Comment_122041102

Maybe, but my understanding is the Manchester operation is a totally separate AOC, totally separate pay scale and agreements etc so wouldn't be affected by the IALPA issue?

john boye

Is this as close as it'll get to EI livery?

https://flic.kr/p/2pLc4GM

Locker10a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041113#Comment_122041113

Yea, seems to be reported elsewhere Iberia will be taking XLRs now …

kevinandrew

Iberia has 8 on order, deliveries between ‘24-26 so they’ve been planning for its introduction for quite some time and reports of its potential routes are to be expected now anyway. Still, it looks increasingly likely they could take a couple a bit earlier than planned…

Judging by that photo, nothing has changed externally for over two months, either that’s the normal process for a new aircraft or things have been purposely stalled. We know they’ve pushed painting back to the end of April, the latest possible date according to IAG. It’s possible this recent outing is it making its way to engine installation which would be followed by full painting.

Certainly feels like time might be running out for Aer Lingus XLRs now.

JPONeill

Is it still possible that the aircraft may still end up at Aer Lingus? Or are they definitely going to Iberia?

kevinandrew

Nobody knows where they’re going yet. The deadline from IAG was late April I believe.

This date was set because Airbus need to get the aircraft painted by the end of the month at the latest in order for it to begin flight testing and stay on schedule for delivery.

IAG claim delivery is dependent on reaching an agreement with pilots. At present, last ditch talks between EI and IALPA have failed, now they await the Labour Relations Court. A resolution from that is a long shot and even if it happens, is weeks away from being put forward so it is very, very unlikely Aer Lingus will meet IAG’s deadline.

Personally I’m leaning more and more towards the suggestion that IAG have already made their minds up, the pilot issue along with the Dublin passenger cap is enough to ensure Aer Lingus will not be receiving the XLR and I wouldn’t be surprised if we soon see their A32Ns remaining on order go elsewhere too.

Jamie2k9

Aer Lingus could be set to announce an interline agreement Wideroe Airlines (operate DUB-Bergen) similar to Loganair for T/A connections.

jwm121

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042372#Comment_122042372

It's such a shame with this happening and the cap, both things that will have lasting effects for years

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042372#Comment_122042372

It is beginning to look like that. However the issue of painting the aircraft seems a bit contrived to me. They could, for example, have it painted white and have the final livery applied later when the outcome of the IR process is known - not ideal but it would not delay the production and delivery process at this point.

It is IAG/Aer Lingus that have blown the pilot pay issue up into this relatively serious crisis for the company. The Labour Court process will deliver an outcome and employers and unions who come to the process in good faith usually abide by the Court's findings/recommendations. If that is not how IAG and EI see it, this dispute could get worse rather than better.

Another photo of the XLR. Shame if EI don’t get it. (Sorry for dodgy looking link-pasted funny)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/danraistrick/53665337474/in/photolist-2pLmUC3-2pLiZWb-2pLiWEU-2pLjquD-2pLc4GM-2pLdTad-2pLdFW1-2pLcX7H-2pLc5zw-2pLa8Eq-2pLbXWw-2pLcb3M-2pL9tmM-2pL2PyL-2pL89xd-2pL8C2T-2pL72QH-2pL5r2b-2pL4azN-2pL2m4u-2pKZSbT-2pKVp8o-2pKZSbH-2pL2FYn-2pKVp7S-2pKZSb2-2pKVp8d-2pL3e1P-2pL3e2A-2pL1Xrh-2pKXwLh-2pKVHsX-2pKVHsG-2pKWhAr-2pKTTnC-2pKVHr9-2pKPrdT-2pKKAug-2pKRaTX-2pKQnLw-2pKP4Nc-2pKNrGs-2pKKSrW-2pKKbYK-2pKJ2qB-2pKLrgh-2pKBGUB-2pKyFP8-2pKBSX8-2pKz1RD

Tenger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042146#Comment_122042146

I believe April 22nd is the Labour ocurt decison.
The aircraft itself isnt due for delivery until July so its in no real rush to get the livery.

Iberia have their own XLRs on order. I wonder what their cabin config is though……

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122044607#Comment_122044607

The Labour Court meetng on 22 April has been described as a hearing, so it is just the next stage in a process. The Court would not issue a report immediately - more like a few weeks later, if indeed the meeting on the 22nd is a formal hearing of the two sides, with presentations.

Tenger

Regarding this ongoing XLR delivery issue. Aer Lingus were planned to take delivery in Q3.
They dont require it until their winter schedule kicks in (usually last weekend of October)
And any A321XLR dependant new routes wont be launched until 2025.

So failing to get the 1st XLR isnt the commercial blow that EI mgmt are presenting it as. Losing the whole 6 aircraft would be.
Lets assume the flight crew pay talks end up with a resolution in 4-6 weeks. That shouldn't affect the delivery of the 4 XLRs in 2025. And with IAG having many of them on order, Iberia can just swop 1-2 of their own delivery slots with EI in 2025.

This swopping of aircraft deliveries is supposed to be a positive of the IAG ownership (positive for bean counters rather than passengers I would express)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122045719#Comment_122045719

bean counters is a bit harsh, swapping allows orders to be placed and sort out who gets them closer to the time. That’s a massive customer benefit