Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

x567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250281#Comment_120250281

The XLRs ought to have a better configuration than the LRs, one that offers more premium seats. If it can't make it to DFW, one of their main JV partner's most important hubs, then they need to use a plane that can. They should also get back into Oneworld and try to align more with their JV partners in terms of service, lounges, seating quality etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249320#Comment_120249320

I'm not sure why the XLRs would replace LR routes, unless to enable more frequency via LRs on some of the closer east coast routes. If the LR can do a route, the XLR can go elsewhere and expand the network...?

sherology

The XLRs have much more cargo hold space as the extra fuel is carried in an integrated (to the fuselage) extra fuel tank as opposed to removable tanks in the LR that take up lots of cargo space (volume/weights and balances)... So they should be more competent in normal operations on east coast routes. If you 'have to' fill an aircrafts tanks to the brim just to get to where you're going then your using fuel to fly fuel so it less efficient.

I'm still a bit confused about posters here saying the LRs are barely capable of getting to IAD for example (from DUB) when SAS and others fly 9hr routes cross the Atlantic. Is it just naysayers or is it valid? Has there ever been a fuel diversion for example?

Hopefully EI will configure the XLR cabins with crew feedback based on experience of the LRs. I see the LRs being down rated/configued to standard 321neos or returned to lessors at their 10yr mark as the XLRs come in as the ACT galley config is more suitable to medium range. I aslo think EI will use their arrival to update their seating types as they are owned as opposed to leased and seating options have improved (JetBlues' vantage solo for example), but we'll see I guess. Odd EI used Collins economy seats on the LRs as opposed to the recaro ones they use on the 330s... Just from a commonality perspective... Are they that much lighter or something?

moonshy2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087926#Comment_120087926

In all honesty a decent large airline should be able to do several things at once. Being able to plan and launch a new route should be able to be done simultaneously with product enhancement and development.

You don’t just stop one thing to focus entirely on another.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250281#Comment_120250281

Airbus on their website say it has a 4700 nm range. Which is London to vancouver distance, that route is one of the examples of potential new routes they suggest it could serve...

LiamaDelta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251616#Comment_120251616

that's a very good point. However in the grand scheme of things EI aren't particularly big. And within IAG they aren't encouraged to spend money innovating. I see LH have just launched a rebranded J product, even though their current offering is pretty good. I think EI are suffering from decades of being the best and a market leader and innovator, but in the last 20 years have stalled whilst other have overtaken them. Their focus for a long time has been on competing with FR rather than offering something different. They are also limited by the size of the market here. The days of stopovers/connections are reducing with the advent of efficient single aisle aircraft that are able to go long distances on thin routes.

MICKEYG

Would love DEN but might it be a stretch eastbound with the altitude, especially in summer? DEN has nice long runways (one being just under 5,000m) so maybe they would be OK?

Murph85

It can easily reach denver...

FR738

SAS only have 157 seats in their LR, EI have a relatively dense 184. It makes a difference and also will with an XLR 184 config

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251665#Comment_120251665

Both OEMs are “ambitious” when it comes to the range of their aircraft, but Airbus are worse. That 4,700nm will be based on still air and getting the optimum flight level on the NAT for example. Are they factoring in contingency fuel? Holding? Where is the alternate? Some authorities allow you to use destination aerodrome as the alternate if it has multiple runways for example. Knock a thousand NM off the range at least Westbound in winter. If you have a 100kt headwind, you’re losing 100nm in range per hour, on a figure (4,700nm) that was never realistic to begin with in real world traffic and weather.

DFW and DEN are certainly beyond the XLR in winter Westbound, and very marginal otherwise, and Winter is when you want to be visiting Colorado.

The LR struggles on DUB-IAD when using 28L/10R ex DUB in unfavourable weather conditions because it is a relatively short runway. SAS don’t have the problem because their LRs are less dense and therefore lighter and likely departing off a longer runway.

Airbus list the LR range as 4,000nm and it is struggling on the 2,900nm DUB-IAD leg. The XLR can be airborne for up to approx 2 hours longer than the LR, meaning there’s an extra 2 hours for those winds to eat into range when flying Westbound. I’d say roughly 3,500nm-3,700nm will be the limit with reserves etc factored in.

Edit: That 4,700nm is unlikely to be based on an aircraft with as dense a config as EI.

MICKEYG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251757#Comment_120251757

It was getting home I had the question about. It would be great if it had the legs for that year-round. Huge connection possibilities with United (if they are still able to partner with them).

sherology

Yeah .. CPH runway is 3300 or 3600 L/R long so it's got more room to lift efficiency I guess on the 9.05hr block flight to JFK.

Murph85

Will aer lingus just lower the seat density to get the range then? People here have been saying for some time, they should be focusing more on premium economy

moonshy2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252918#Comment_120252918

No unlikely for many reason, profit margin, flexibility across the operation(not much call for premeco on euro routes). With a far larger operation yes you could have different seating configs within a fleet, but EI don’t really like doing that.

I’d say anything west of Chicago to Philly would be 330, EI always suggested LRs and XLRs were to increase frequency on a route rather than newer longer routes.

With the suggested 10x330NEO order set to be announced EI will have loads of aircraft available to open new routes.

moonshy2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251668#Comment_120251668

Bear in mind, don’t take offence, just because you think product offering is poor doesn’t actually mean the vast amount of EIs customer give 2 hoots.

Personally I suspect the vast amount of EIs customers just want a seat and a chance to buy a chicken and stuffing sambo.

We’ve grown up in Ireland buying our airline tickets based on what’s cheapest. Not who’s most comfortable or offers best service. This is reflected in aircraft configs being heavily biased to Economy. Look at BA, about 60-70% of an aircraft’s cabin is premium offerings, it’s the complete opposite with EI.

sherology

If it were me, and it certainly is not; business would be rebranded as AerClub to match the lounge/premium/freqflyer brand with seat/food/lounge access incl. AerSpace would cover premium economy (LH) or extra space/plush seats (LH/SH) with buy-on-board/regular economy service - if they find it hard to cater differently - the premium meals you used t be able to order on LH would be fine for AerSpace cabin. AerExplorer would cover economy with regular economy service, with all lead-in fares for this cabin.

Sean Doyle seemed to have some sense of brand ID/quality before covid hit and he left for BA, but it's all gone very bland since... If Pembelton has no real plan to extract money from passengers who have it to spend, she needs to go bye-bye. It feels like EI management have no faith in EI or it's customers. Perfectly fine to compete with FR/others in the AerExplorer cabin, but there's plenty who'd like to travel further up the brand scale but can't as they have no option.

sherology

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252951#Comment_120252951

10 x 330neo order... Is that definite? Is there a source? I assumed this is where EI would go but would be nice to see it done.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252951#Comment_120252951

I'd respectfully suggest that it's impossible to really know how much call there is for a Premium Economy product out of DUB when none of the major operators offer this type of product.

I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120254339#Comment_120254339

Hopefully jet blue launch to Dublin

moonshy2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120254339#Comment_120254339

I tried a brief search earlier and a few of the American carriers offer it, but realistically there is no way of telling how full they are in those cabins regularly.

Surely the fact it isn’t being widely offered or seriously contemplated by carriers suggests they have a better idea than us of what people ex Dublin wants.

moonshy2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120253248#Comment_120253248

No, I’ve heard it from several separate sources that it’s on the cards to be announced soon. Nothing more than that.

I had heard they were talking to Boeing and Airbus about their options. Qatar dumping their crap on EI has caused too many issues overall and new machines are required.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120254491#Comment_120254491

Honestly, I think it's much more likely that they don't want the hassle of trying to offer a differentiated product.

cson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252154#Comment_120252154

In terms of it struggling to reach IAD, I can't see any instance of a fuel stop for either 117 or 119 in the last year per my Gold FR24 sub.

Sexual Chocolate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120254514#Comment_120254514

Think someone mentioned recently that EIK & EIL leases are up near the end of the year or early next year if I remember right ? So they'd be looking for two replacements in and around that time I'd imagine and then you also have GEY lease up as well shortly though with no mention of it returning with the other two that's probably never coming back.

Surprised to hear of them speaking to Boeing. The 787 would look really well in EI colours.

kevinandrew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251552#Comment_120251552

Regarding the Collins economy seat, it must be the most competitive or attractive product because you'll find it on almost every transatlantic A321LR operator (SAS, TAP, JetBlue, Aer Lingus) despite their wide body fleets (excl. JetBlue) all featuring the competing Recaro offering. It actually seems to be the most popular choice overall for A321neo airlines using the aircraft on longer missions; American, Aegean, Hawaiian, Air Arabia, etc. also use it in various iterations.

Very few airlines are using a different seat in this role, the main exceptions are Air Astana and MEA which have opted for a Recaro seat despite not having Recaro elsewhere in their fleet! The other notable one is Turkish Airlines which chose a seat from their own Istanbul based seating manufacturer they set up a few years back.

As for the doubts surrounding the range performance of the LR, that likely stems from the rumours of its poor wet runway performance in Dublin which was spoken about when it first entered service with Aer Lingus. The runway was supposedly too short for the A321LR in wet conditions, this meant performance restrictions, even on relatively easy routes like IAD. I assume the new runway solves this.

Another clue was the MSP route, originally intended to be operated by an A321LR once the final 757 was retired but real world performance resulted in Aer Lingus having to use an A332 just as we headed into the bleak winter months. It was obviously way too much plane for a new route to freezing Minnesota but they seemingly had no other choice. The pandemic meant we never really found out how that was going to play out but the fact they haven't rushed back to MSP suggests they don't have a suitable aircraft for the job with the A321LR not having the legs and the A330 being too big.

Lockheed

The 321LR really struggles on YYZ, a bit more than it ever really has on IAD, it's a longer flight and typically higher load. Bags have to be offloaded and sent on the AC flight when there's a strong headwind.

HTCOne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120254980#Comment_120254980

The crews and airline often tell Tower they need to offload weight (so cargo, bags or pax) when 10R in particular is in use for departures. The new runway helps sometimes BUT in the summer the winds are regularly easterly from late morning onwards as cooler sea air moves in to replace rising hot air over the land. In easterly winds, 10R must be used for departures as per planning restrictions unless it is unavailable for some reason. 10L is the last choice for departures due noise abatement, so this 10R/28L problem for the LRs isn’t going away.

The new flap design on the XLR will supposedly help with short field performance, whether it is enough to make any real difference or not I have no idea.

kevinandrew

Aer Lingus could have trialled premium economy at Manchester, it's a market well versed in the product and even expects it. It's common to hear people opting to fly with TUI or Virgin instead of Aer Lingus from Manchester because of the lack of a premium economy product. On the other hand it's also not unusual to see passengers (particularly on BGI) booking business class because they wanted something special and the lack of premium economy swayed them in favour of Aer Lingus' competitively priced (compared to local competition) business class.

Unfortunately Aer Lingus are likely too reluctant to give up valuable floorspace in their dense economy cabins for a premium product that would risk eating away at the up-selling opportunities they're so good at (pre-pandemic anyway) in economy, and the yields they currently achieve in business class.

I also think it's very unlikely they'd ever accept a seat count any lower than 170 on their A321LR/XLR which rules out premium on those aircraft (unless its the same economy seat but with all the other extras included) which creates a major product conflict with potential 3-class A330s.

Astral Nav

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120254980#Comment_120254980

A321LR can depart at structural weight from 28R. That's 22+ tonnes fuel, payload permitting (which it generally would). Only issue is when it's the usual tailwind/wet/28L lark in DUB.

Sexual Chocolate

Issues like that is why Boeing was mad to discontinue the 757 or bring out a updated version to modern standards while now there pissing around with the Max 7 & 10.

sherology

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120255506#Comment_120255506

So are there plans to make 28R (the new longer runway) the take-off runway or is that being screwed up by planning restrictions?