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Pistol for use on authorised range only.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    No need to get your knickers in a twist about it,
    I appreciate your concern about my knickers, and all is well on that front.

    My point is that you quoted the sections of law both Cookimonster and i quoted and linked to and still maintained that shooting with a restricted firearm is perfectly legal. In essence the same mistake i made by saying it's not. While we're both right, there are also limits to what we say.

    As i said i'm not interested in an argument, at all, nor one on semantics but a lot of restricted firearms cannot be used and there is law to say so on most of them however direct or indirect. If there was no law then it wouldn't be illegal or an offense.
    but you are a MOD on the shooting forum so unfortunately people will take what you say as gospel as you will be deemed to be correct when you state something. I have heard things posted here repeated, and the post about not being able to hunt with restricted firearms is one that has been said to me before, and is false.
    While i appreciate the standing some may see me in i have said many, many times over the years that no one, ABSOLUTELY no one should act on any advice by ANY member on here when it comes to legal matters.

    We can discuss what we think and our perspectives/interpretations on the law, but in the end each person will be held accountable for their own actions so acting on the word of others is not recommended and the site rules actually prohibit giving legal advice for this very reason.

    As with all things its also subject specific. For example if i say don't rob a bank, you'll go to jail. Well i'm not a solicitor nor am i a member of An Gardaí but its a safe bet that you can take such advice as Gospel.

    Other examples are also as clear cut such as mag limits, what type of license a person should have for a specific type of gun, what is deer legal calibers, etc, etc. All that advice is easy to give and very straight forward in understanding.

    However with the topic of this thread there are fine lines, and certain things that must happen to allow the hunting of game and vermin with a very specific set of restricted firearms, while the rest are not permitted.

    The same vagueness has plagued us on other topics such as shooting outside a range, barrel length of rifles, etc..

    So not so clear cut.
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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    100% correct.There is nothing stopping you using a SA CF rifle with a 100 drum[if you can hump that weight about and get one legally anymore under EU law] to go deer hunting here..
    There is something stopping you, as you mentioned, the recent EU/Irish law which places a limit on mag size for semi autos and the fact that the rifle caliber must still meet a set of criteria to be considered deer legal as i outlined previously.
    The 1976 Wildlife act never forsaw such an event happening
    I don't see why not other than the same pencil pushers drafting legislation on a topic they know nothing about. Look to the recent Canadian ban and their entire list. They have banned websites, not just firearm manufacturers/types.

    Also it's not like AR type platforms are a new thing and even those semi-autos not built off an AR type platform work on the same principle of autoloading, one trigger pull - one shot system.

    Perhaps its also because the 1976 act cam so soon after the 1972 "temporary custody order" and they [the legislators] believed they had closed off anything bigger than a 22 rifle or shotgun to the public?
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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    How many times has it been mentioned that there are now, iirc, 19 firearm Acts, 63 SIs, and three (was two, but think it's three now) EU directives governing shooting in Ireland.

    Who in the world can know everything in all that and how it relates to each aspect of shooting. I mean if someone wanted to know something about the legalities of hunting they could read the three Wildlife Acts from 1976 to 2010, but it only gives a partial picture as some aspects are governed by SIs (such as the deer calibers) and yet other aspects depend on the EU directive on storage during transport and even some Road traffic acts regarding using public transport.

    This is what i mean when i say you need to take all aspects of the various acts to piece together what you actually need to know. Its also why most quarters have called for a complete restatement of all this legislation to make it more understandable, centralised and easier to access.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Apart from that awkward long barrel,thats pushing out a slug with about.357 magnum capability at the muzzle.

    Well he liked the long barrel, muzzle awareness with a pistol flys out the window, if you have a large wounded deer jumping about the place, onlookers, police standing around etc. Be a bit much to carry a second long arm on a stalk though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,927 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Cass wrote: »
    There is something stopping you, as you mentioned, the recent EU/Irish law which places a limit on mag size for semi autos and the fact that the rifle caliber must still meet a set of criteria to be considered deer legal as i outlined previously.

    True,but it doesn't stop you from using that particular firearms type from hunting here.10 shots is by any standards both in EU and the US,a VERY generous amount to have in your rifle,be it semi,pump,or lever,aand again mag capacity is a free for all if you were to use a rifle with any of those systems other than semi auto,as neither EU or Irish law mentions them.So long as they are deer legal as you said.

    I don't see why not other than the same pencil pushers drafting legislation on a topic they know nothing about. Look to the recent Canadian ban and their entire list. They have banned websites, not just firearm manufacturers/types.

    Perhaps its also because the 1976 act cam so soon after the 1972 "temporary custody order" and they [the legislators] believed they had closed off anything bigger than a 22 rifle or shotgun to the public?

    Apart from that idiot in Canada also banning a US coffee company[Black rifle coffee] with his dictatorial plans.Which is now also running into another problem.Lots of rural Canadian police depts have bought also for personal duty guns,semi autos of all types.There is no exclusion clause for police officers in this legislation.So guess who he has piddled off now as well?:rolleyes:

    More than likely,as you say.But its odd they never thought of pump or lever action rifles,of which there were/are a few models in 220 Swift and 22./250,that were boxloaders .Browning BLR springs to mind even back then.But then again,in the enforced Cyro sleep shooting found itself in in those 35 years,unless it was connected to lads of a 3 letter orgaisation much intrested in liberating a part of this island.It didnt really feature on shooters or the PTB radar.:rolleyes:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Banning the looking at of an AR15 website, should have bells going with the free speech advocates in Canada. Its very like the Chinese only allowing the use of their own search engines, banning the access to google and the like. Very illiberal these liberals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,927 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Canada will be like N Korea with the internet.Everything you ever need to know is on the Dear Leader Kim approved N Korean internet.No need for any other internet information.:rolleyes:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    Cass wrote: »
    Section 33(1)(a) of the principle act as amended by section 41 of the 2000 act deals with restricted shotgun hunting:



    For Crossbows, which are restricted firearms under law the same section 33 above prohibits their use by banning the use of darts, arrows, spears or similar devices to hunt which is extended to wild animals too under section 42 of the 2000 act which amends the principle act:


    Restricted centre fire rifles are the exception i believe, to an extent. I'm not aware of any ban or prohibition on using a semi auto or restricted rifle caliber for wild animals but they cannot be used on birds or hares for the same reason an unrestricted rifle cannot be used. So basically only good for deer or foxes, but good luck trying to get a 500 nitro express for foxes. :D

    As for the rest such as a restricted pistol i'll refer you to my post(s) above:


    And of course my comment about it being legal if "all the stars align":



    So in short you should be fine for some shooting with a restricted rifle, but for everything else you either cannot via legislation or simply won't be issued the license for hunting in the first place.

    At least that is my understanding.

    I know a lad who through a medical event has reduced use of his left arm and hand and discussed applying for a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip stock for the purpose of shooting crows and pigeons with the powers that be. As we all know that type of stock would make it a restricted firearm.

    He told me he was informed he would have to explain and document his circumstances on his application form so the Chief Super could deal with the “need” for a restricted firearm on those grounds.

    From that I gather he definitely wasn’t told it was impossible.

    The three round capacity rule for hunting with semi-auto firearms has been in force for a good few years across the EU. Ireland has adapted it by using the unrestricted/restricted categorisation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,927 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    But Ireland never ratified it into national law for SA rifles into the wildlife act 1976/2000!IOW your national law has to reflect the EU legislation as we have seen last year with the mags and the receptables.There has never been any mention of this anywhere in the acts 76 or 2000!

    He should have no problem with such,as "pistol gripped stocks" are all the rage for international clay shooters on O/Us these days. I give you made in Ireland.


    2.jpg
    or
    Ergosign-660x315.jpg

    BOTH of these would fall foul of our legislation making a twin-pipe a restricted firearm because they are "prominent pistol grips below the stock. So if these are legal on an unrestricted shotgun of two shots,why not on a semi auto for three?
    Also,he could aquite a thumbhole stock or "Turkey gun stock" by Remington and others and have pretty much the same thing.As they were designed with "Californian law" in mind about these matters.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,927 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Wouldnt allow me to post two pics for some reason.An Irish made pistolgripped shotgun stock

    2.jpg

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    From that I gather he definitely wasn’t told it was impossible.
    It would be the same situation with a Super granting a license for a restricted firearm. It would be moot/void upon issue.

    In your mate's situation the license would be valid if issued by the CS, but the use of it for hunting any wild game/fowl with it would be prohibited by law which AGS cannot supercede or overwrite/rule.
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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    @ Grizzly.

    There is no actual definition of what is a pistol grip in Irish law, well none i know off, but the two examples you showed above do not meet the criteria for pistol grips.

    A pistol grip would be a grip that is separate to the buttstock and in some/most cases not connected to the buttstock. If you look at AR platforms in rifles or restricted semi auto shotguns with pistol grips you'll see how the grip is either completely separate or separate to such an extent that it [the grip] can be considered a separate part and that the buttstcok joins the firearmvia connection to the rear of the receiver with little to no contact or connection to the actual grip.

    Before you start into a pedantic argument about how some firearms have the grip "merging" into the buttstock i'm not saying the description of mine above is perfect but showing pictures of unrestricted shotguns that are not and never have been restricted and claiming they fall foul of Irish law is planting seeds in the minds of those that would use that as an argument to further restrict such guns and make what is an unrestricted gun, restricted.

    The first picture you show is the fancy ass stock seen on some trap guns and they are few and far between with the grip connected directly to the buttstock

    The second picture is no different to any standard unrestricted shotgun it simply has a more palm fitting design around the grip but still the stock comes directly from the grip.

    Lastly thumbhole stocks are not even close to restricted because its essentially a solid stock with a thumbhole bored into it for better fitment, but also connected on the end of the grip which in Ireland is meaningless as pistol grips only make shotguns restricted, not rifles.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,927 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Cass wrote: »
    @ Grizzly.
    There is no actual definition of what is a pistol grip in Irish law, well none i know off, but the two examples you showed above do not meet the criteria for pistol grips.

    Have a read of the Garda guidelines.It states what makes a shotgun restricted in this category of stocks.
    Folding,collapsing or telescoping stock,or one that can be removed without tools.
    A pistol grip only.
    A stock with a prominent pistol grip protuding below the stock

    Doesn't say by how much or what shape or whatever,the word is prominent.
    Ergo by that definition those kinds of stocks designed for better clay shooting are making a restricted firearm out of unrestricted firearms

    A pistol grip would be a grip that is separate to the buttstock
    Or being the sole bit to hold onto in lieu of a proper shoulder mounted stock.
    and in some/most cases not connected to the buttstock. If you look at AR platforms in rifles or restricted semi auto shotguns with pistol grips you'll see how the grip is either completely separate or separate to such an extent that it [the grip] can be considered a separate part and that the buttstcok joins the firearmvia connection to the rear of the receiver with little to no contact or connection to the actual grip
    .

    Unless you are talking about some type of weird AR or AK or Military /Police based platform, like a Saiga,SPAS or such that doesn't hold true for most civillian designed stocks.The majority are one piece stocks with a pistol grip integrated into the stock,to absorb felt recoil in a linear direction.Its the reason most post 1945 military rifles are built with a prominent pistol grip seperate from the buttstock
    Before you start into a pedantic argument about how some firearms have the grip "merging" into the buttstock i'm not saying the description of mine above is perfect but showing pictures of unrestricted shotguns that are not and never have been restricted and claiming they fall foul of Irish law is planting seeds in the minds of those that would use that as an argument to further restrict such guns and make what is an unrestricted gun, restricted.
    The first picture you show is the fancy ass stock seen on some trap guns and they are few and far between with the grip connected directly to the buttstock


    There is no point in hiding the head in the sand,as it leaves your arse exposed to a kicking!This needs to be pointed out,just because you have a 3 grand grip on your 12 grand trap gun that is technically restricted,shouldnt give you a free pass from the guy who has a 3shot semi auto/pump and wants to put a 50 euro aftermarket accessory on it to improve his shooting.

    I will also contend that certain shotguns modified for people with physical disabilities IE so called "cripple stocks" depending on their disability "could" also fall foul of this legislative definition as some have very distinctive prominent pistol grips.Do we now dissallow the disabled from hunting and shooting because of a restricted stock being used on an unrestricted gun?We'll be signing up with the Brits then on banning MARS rifles from physically disabled shooters.

    Doesnt matter if it is 1 or 10,000 of them here.They are I contend and always have contended since 2008 that they fall foul of this VERY BAD description.BUT the reason they are not picked on is simply they are on two shot "traditional" shotguns,and the worry here is the mag capacity with the "concealability factor" in the AGS mind. Hey! I didn't write this dumbass legislation or guidelines,but this is how these people think.How the Hell you are going to conceal a solid stock shotgun with a bit sticking out underneath is beyond us all... And before someone says "they are only guidelines!"..Well the Health dept and govt have been issuing "guidelines" here sinch Feb 29th,and they have been enforced as LAW by AGS!!
    Without a doubt unconstitutional,and challengeable in a court.Not much help when discussing it with Garda Muldoon at a checkpoint .

    Lastly thumbhole stocks are not even close to restricted because its essentially a solid stock with a thumbhole bored into it for better fitment, but also connected on the end of the grip which in Ireland is meaningless as pistol grips only make shotguns restricted, not rifles.

    Hello??? Also considerd a thumbhole stock.Again,no definition in law,here s to what an item is.Point being one of those stocks has all the features of a prominent pistol grip,but is legal here I'd contend,because of the connection piece of material between base of the pistol grip and butt making it a "thumbhole stock.
    60923.jpg

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Have a read of the Garda guidelines.
    First mistake.

    Guidelines don't overwrite or supercede the law which is SI 21/2008 and states:
    (b) shotguns manufactured, adapted or modified so as to render them incapable of containing more than 3 cartridges, but not to shotguns—

    (i) with a detached, folding or telescopic stock, or

    (ii) with a pistol grip, or

    (iii) whose barrel is less than 60.9 centimetres (24 inches) in length;
    It states what makes a shotgun restricted in this category of stocks.
    No it doesn't. It simply repeats what is in the SI, and this bit:
    A stock with a prominent pistol grip protuding below the stock
    The guidelines add the word "prominent" which does not appear in the SI or any legislation and you added the bit about "below the stock" as neither the guidelines nor the SI/Legislation states this.
    Doesn't say by how much or what shape or whatever,the word is prominent.
    Not in the law so irrelevant.
    Ergo by that definition those kinds of stocks designed for better clay shooting are making a restricted firearm out of unrestricted firearms
    Ergo nothing.

    AGS cannot legislate, only enforce the current law(s).
    There is no point in hiding the head in the sand,as it leaves your arse exposed to a kicking!This needs to be pointed out,just because you have a 3 grand grip on your 12 grand trap gun that is technically restricted,shouldnt give you a free pass from the guy who has a 3shot semi auto/pump and wants to put a 50 euro aftermarket accessory on it to improve his shooting.
    Jesus H Christ.

    Just stop. You're calling unrestricted firearms restricted and saying that your made up definition of what a pistol grip is means that lads all around the country with grips on their shotguns like as you describe are unlicensed because you deem them to be restricted.
    I will also contend that certain shotguns modified for people with physical disabilities IE so called "cripple stocks" depending on their disability "could" also fall foul of this legislative definition as some have very distinctive prominent pistol grips.Do we now dissallow the disabled from hunting and shooting because of a restricted stock being used on an unrestricted gun?
    You stop that nonsense too with the "won't someone think of the children" defence.

    Restricted does not mean prohibited/banned. So they can license them, just not use them for certain purposes.
    We'll be signing up with the Brits then on banning MARS rifles from physically disabled shooters.
    Well if you keep spouting off with nonsense that unrestricted guns are actually restricted you're laying some good ground work for AGS.
    Doesnt matter if it is 1 or 10,000 of them here.They are I contend and always have contended since 2008 that they fall foul of this VERY BAD description.
    The legislation is simple and easily understood, you're the one muddying up the waters. If a shotgun has a single barrel its unrestricted. Stick on a pistol grip and it's restricted. So it has nothing to do with being a double barrel.
    And before someone says "they are only guidelines!"..Well the Health dept and govt have been issuing "guidelines" here sinch Feb 29th,and they have been enforced as LAW by AGS!!
    Such as.
    Without a doubt unconstitutional,and challengeable in a court.Not much help when discussing it with Garda Muldoon at a checkpoint .
    Hello???
    Hi!
    Also considerd a thumbhole stock.
    Because it is. The hole doesn't have a specific set of dimensions, only that the thumb goes through a hole.
    Again,no definition in law,here s to what an item is.Point being one of those stocks has all the features of a prominent pistol grip,but is legal here I'd contend,because of the connection piece of material between base of the pistol grip and butt making it a "thumbhole stock.
    So not a pistol grip.


    I'm starting to wonder what the hell is going on with this forum lately. Lads, known members, asking stupid and probing questions that have never been challenged by AGS, are set out CLEARLY in law and cause no need for concern.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭clivej


    I know a lad who through a medical event has reduced use of his left arm and hand and discussed applying for a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip stock for the purpose of shooting crows and pigeons with the powers that be. As we all know that type of stock would make it a restricted firearm.

    He told me he was informed he would have to explain and document his circumstances on his application form so the Chief Super could deal with the “need” for a restricted firearm on those grounds.

    From that I gather he definitely wasn’t told it was impossible.

    The three round capacity rule for hunting with semi-auto firearms has been in force for a good few years across the EU. Ireland has adapted it by using the unrestricted/restricted categorisation.

    This is what I have on my Mosberg pump shotgun but shoud also fit a semi-auto.
    Large thumbhole stock is legal on any shotgun.

    512612.jpg


    unnamed.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,927 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Cass wrote: »
    First mistake.
    Guidelines don't overwrite or supercede the law which is SI 21/2008 and states:

    Yes we know that Cass,But how many times have AGS tried to push the guidelines as law,on everything from looks like and "asault rifles" and their own definitions.All that had to be sorted out by court cases.Not by arguing definitions with them in corrospondence and in interviews.
    :
    The guidelines add the word "prominent" which does not appear in the SI or any legislation and you added the bit about "below the stock" as neither the guidelines nor the SI/Legislation states this.

    No sorry!!! It did appear in the l guideline copy I have otherwise I would not have mentioned it maybe you have a different copy?I dont go around making up stuff as you well know!!

    SNIP
    Not going to bother.. Belive what you will.I'm done with this.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    But how many times have AGS tried to push the guidelines as law,on everything from looks like and "asault rifles" and their own definitions.All that had to be sorted out by court cases.Not by arguing definitions with them in corrospondence and in interviews.
    How did those court cases go for you and most everyone else that took one? The majority won didn't they, because their case is based on law.

    Secondly this is not about one of those vague issues like barrel length, what defines an "assault rifle", that bulls**t about "looks like", etc. This is a straight forward issue of restricted and unrestricted. Saying a lot more shotguns should be or would be classed as restricted based on your definition above is wrong and to draw attention to it based on no legislative basis, wrong information, and non existant guideline quotes could lead to problems where none exist.

    Not to mention if it were an issue it would have been dealt with in the 2009 Act or one of the half dozen SIs since 2008.
    No sorry!!! It did appear in the l guideline copy I have otherwise I would not have mentioned it maybe you have a different copy?
    There is no different copy. There are the guidelines as issued on September 2018. Link to it is here. Do a simple word search for "below", "stock" and you'll find two results for "below", neither of which are in a sentence describing anything protruding from the stock, and three results for "stock", none of which describe or refer to a pistol grip and nothing about it protruding from the stock.
    I dont go around making up stuff as you well know!!
    Didn't say you made it up, i said you added those words yourself, as they don't appear in the guidelines and if they did it would still be irrelevant as they are not included in the SIs referring to restricted firearms.

    That is not is not an accusation of fabricating things, it could be something as simple as elaborating in your own words, which i've done myself, and that elaboration changes the meaning of what you're talking about so as to make it now wrong.

    Look at my post in this thread where i casually said about restricted firearms and using them for hunting. I knew that line was right, but also wrong because of the way i worded it, in that it did not explain the situation fully and it lead to ten posts about what exactly it means and what exactly i meant. Had i just said it "correctly" at the start it would have saved all that back and forth.
    SNIP
    Not going to bother.. Belive what you will.I'm done with this.
    There is no need for belief, simply the ability to read. Its not in there.

    Here comes the Olive branch. I'm not out to bust your balls on this and if i came across as overly strong or a bit of dick, i apologise. However this is the fifth or sixth time this week something has come up which "challenges" what is laid out, fairly clearly, in law and drawing attention to it doesn't really matter that much because AGS and the DoJ are not fools and if there was a problem, especially a serious problem, it would have been addressed by now, but i still don't see the point in bringing up what is an already settled issue and possibly give some bored beaurocrat a scab to pick at.

    No SI, no amendment, no Act deals with pistol grips and their length/protrusion from the stock. Its a "given" (based on current legislation, the types of licenses for currently licensed firearms and the attitudes/actions of AGS towards licensing) that pistol grips are grips which resemble those on AR type platforms (its the only example i can think of that everyone will usually recognize immediately) so to me there is no need to drag this up and make an issue out of something that is not an issue, especially if that causes thousands, or tens of thousands of firearms to become unlicensed/voided overnight by a change to the definition of their appearance. We already deal with enough crap on that front with the "idon'tlikethelookofthat" law.
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  • Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭jb88


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    100% correct.There is nothing stopping you using a SA CF rifle with a 100 drum[if you can hump that weight about and get one legally anymore under EU law] to go deer hunting here.The 1976 Wildlife act never forsaw such an event happening.


    Griz
    New laws on SA CF rifles, mags now restricted to 10 rounds, no more. Had to spend a fortune on Mag blockers recently, all to appease this Fe&ked up state we live in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭Bagpipe


    So if I understand this thread correctly, this type of rifle http://cilldarahunting.com/shop/firearms/new-centre-fire-rifles/sig-sauer-516-g2/ can be used for target shooting and hunting if both were ticked and approved of by the superintendent?

    Secondly, this type of buttstock/grip is NOT restricted? https://www.combathunting.com/MAVERICK_88_SHOTGUN-Maverick_88_Shotgun_Pistol_Grip_Buttstock_ATI.html


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    So if I understand this thread correctly, this type of rifle can be used for target shooting and hunting if both were ticked and approved of by the superintendent?
    By the Chief Super as its a restricted firearm (centrefire semi autos are automatically restricted and i believe they are 223 or 308)
    Secondly, this type of buttstock/grip is NOT restricted? ]

    It IS restricted as its clearly sold as, and is, a pistol grip.
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